Hey guys,

I read through this entire thread and didn't find a short answer to my question so I will ask it here.

When you have the VAP or Eurotoys tune already in place and then later add the lower pulley (11.8% +) what is the gains of the pulley itself with the tune that was already in place?

Where is the power applied vs just the tune alone which kicks *** btw and what range does the pulley benefit from?

I just wanton know the specific gains of the pulley itself since Euro and VAP don't give full details on it, I haut see the % bump and the HP/TQ bump, not where it is bumped but I am assuming more down low and mid vs the tune alone does.

I have a XE so I think my 340hp stock blows 11.4psi and the tune ups to 15psi at 420hp and then with the pulley is it 18psi and 453hp? The pulley cost as much ad the tune so I wanted to weigh out the $><HP factor.


Any break down would be greatly appreciated guys.

 

You need to get a new tune when adding the lower supercharge pulley; you cannot use the current tune you have. I don't know about Eurotoys, but VelocityAP will provide that free of charge if you buy from them and already have their tune.

I agree, I wish both companies would provide more detailed information, but i think the lack of that is just because these are in the early stages of usage, so there isn't much data available.

 

On our site, we have quoted 416BHP for the tune and 453BHP for the pulley. The 453BHP was generated on a car that had a smaller upper pulley (60.5mm vs 62mm OEM) but this requires the snout to be shaved and only makes an additional 0.75 psi.

Interestingly, with both pulleys in combination, you are also getting to the point where you exceed the maximum recommended charger speed, and what we found on those runs was that the top end was actually dropping off because the blower just isn't big enough to support that much boost at those RPM levels (as the engine speed increases, the engine starts to 'eat' the boost.)

So the expected results for the crank pulley alone are same as the combination of the two, but without the same loss of top end.

So there's two things to consider here - one is your 'headline' number. ie - what is your peak torque/peak HP figure. And the second is what does the entire curve look like. When you increase the mechanical drive rate of the supercharger, not only are you increasing peak power, but your entire torque curve becomes substantially broader. So while the Tune adds a lot of power, the pulley is going to add a lot of low-mid range RPM torque, as a result of the increase in boost at that RPM level. When you add the pulley you'll find the car just gets up and goes way quicker without having to wind up the engine as much.

People often ask us about wear & tear on the engine and the interesting question is whether the net effect of adding a pulley is actually that you don't have to run the same kind of RPM in order to get where you are going.

 

Anything you would like to know please ask. There's no intention to withhold or provide incomplete info.

 

We rate the tune by itself as roughly 410bhp, with pulley roughly 440-450bhp. Not many of our customers want to dyno test, it has always been that way for us and I have been doing this since 2002ish. I would rather have many dyno sheets to show, but for these cars most people do not.


No charge for the lower pulley file if you already have our tune as long as it is done in a timely manner. Meaning within 1 year should be sufficient.


If someone is willing to do our Tune/Pulley Power package, I am willing to pay for the dyno time as long as it is done right. For anyone interested just PM me for details.


Mike


Mike

 

Sometimes I just feel like the information is spread all over the place with these threads. For instance you guys never made an offical supercharger pulley thread that went into all the detail. One place said the PSI and another place talked about build material, etc. Lots of searching needed to be done to gather all of the information. It would be great if you guys made a thread for each part you developed and kept the first post up to date with all important info for both motors, such as:

Percentage increase over stock
PSI increase over stock
Build material
Horsepower/Torque increase over stock
Tuning requirements
Fueling requirements
Dyno charts/videos
etc.

Your website leaves some of this out too. For example it doesn't mention anything about V8 horsepower gains.

 

What a great thread, thanks to all! Can anyone say what the impact is on mileage? Yes, that does matter to me...
Thanks!

 

My data:

40 tanks of fuel before the tune, average 18.8 mpg
10 tanks after the tune, average 17.9 mpg.

Please note that there is no adjustment for "driving like an ***." I haven't been able to quantify that for before/after correction. Personally, I'm just as much of an *** before and after, but driving style may have been affected by the increase in power and torque. Still, when I look at the graphical representation of data, I think those averages are pretty representative.

 

I can accurately measure fuel economy when my wife rides with me. It usually is about 4-6 mpg better than when I'm alone in the car. That said, highway fuel economy when she is in the car has increased by 1.5 to 2mpg since the tune. When I am alone it went down about 4 mpg on the highway after the tune. Lowest fuel economy recorded: 3.4 mpg over the equivalent of 0.9 miles on the dyno.

 

LOL, awesome thanks! I'm getting 20+ on two tanks so far but that is mostly highway, with only one beat ride so far (within the break in constraints, of course )

 

OK, I have to pull away for a while but first, one more... This place is worse than crack(book.)
I was looking through the Paramount site mentioned earlier for the intercooler and saw they had a tune too. Not only is the dyno graph pretty much at a 45 degree angle, it is the same for the V6 & V8. I guess you could write & ask for the real one but... seems pretty sketch...
https://www.paramount-performance.co...V6-tuning.html

 

That's the way most of the larger performance shops conduct business. In fact, they are all very evasive when you ask them for specifics. We are very fortunate to have two tuners who actively participate on this forum that are willing to be very transparent.

 

This is a question/observation aimed more at Unhingd, Cambo, Stuart from VAP and Mike from Eurotoys (those who are most familiar with the V6 platform) but anyone can feel free to chime in.

So APR have been steadily working away at the B8/B8.5 platform for the Audi S4/S5. For those that do not know, the engine does seem quite similar to ours (same capacity and same supercharger, the TVS1320), although I have not check exact bore/stroke dimensions, etc.

Whereas they had initially launched a Stage 3 kit for the platform, replacing the stock TVS1320 supercharger with the TVS1740 and reaching numbers of 469 hp on 91 octane and 538 hp on race fuel, they have ditched the option recently. See here for old remnants on the web of their Stage 3 kit: Magnuson / APR V6 TVS1740 Supercharger Update

However, APR have recently launched another option instead of the Stage 3 kit, their "Ultracharger" system. From my (novice) understanding, this system basically replaces the restrictions within the platform's throttle body to increase airflow to the TVS1320. The system is used alongside the APR dual pulley setup (57.75mm upper pulley and 187mm lower pulley), and some other upgrades, on the TVS1320 to generate 478 hp on 91 octane and 542 hp on race gas (both higher numbers than they generated with the TVS1740). Additionally, it seems they are running the TVS1320 at around 22,500 RPM (at 7,000 engine RPM) without any loses in power (that Unhingd and me have observed with our dual pulley setups on our platforms).

Links for the APR Ultracharger:
The APR 3.0 TFSI Ultracharger System

Links for the APR dual pulley setup:
APR 3.0 TFSI Supercharger Drive and Crank Pulley Upgrades

Other required mods for APR's Ultracharger setup include upgraded spark plugs, an APR Supercharger cooling system (upgraded intercooler), a high flow intake system and high flow catalysts.

Now, my question is, are we sure that we our not running into any roadblocks with our platforms regarding the throttle body, cooling, etc?

If APR can run the TVS1320 at 22,500 RPM without efficiency losses, perhaps we are looking in the wrong place (at least cost-efficiency wise) regarding upgrading our superchargers to the TVS1900. I am now seriously considering installing either the upgraded Eurotoys intercooler or a water/meth injection kit to help with the car's cooling (also because I live in the middle of the desert). Perhaps we can max the performance of our existing superchargers with some improved cooling (I already have an upgraded intake and 200 cell catalysts).

Looking forward to hearing your inputs on this guys!

 

No doubt APR may be onto something, but the full solution is more than just the radiator side of the SC cooling system. More cooling will be had on our setup by increasing the water/compressed air heatX capacity at the SC itself. (and of course porting and polishing the SC air inlet could help flow). I believe our biggest issue, though, is the heat soak at the cats triggering the nannies. I'm wondering if the upgraded SC-side intercooler from APR will fit our TVS R1320.

 

Like Unhingd mentioned, more a question of the charged temps. I also own a B8 S4 and things I've read on audizine have kept me away from the new ultracharger APR kit for now. The UPR kit also changes out the throttle body neck to the charger. Your charger has the neck built into the charger housing. You would have to bore out the charger opening and then install a larger throttle body..then comes a bunch of dyno time.

But that brings back a huge issue which is heat, if you ever look under the hood of a B8 S4 or even the newer S6, look at the extra room around the engine for air to flow, then look at the Jag's with the 5.0 and 3.0, almost next to no room along side and on top for air to flow and exit. Even the front of the Audi's have more area to bring in a larger volume of fresh air, it's like you F-type guys had a Botox lip injection gone wrong, really don't know why Jag would of made such a small opening(behind the bumper opening is even worse how it narrows).

We have some clients in the middle east, these guys(some on here), get some really sick ambient heat. By swapping in the larger front mount intercooler has helped bring down the charged air cooling system temp, but the actual cooler inside the intake has not increased it's core size, thus not cooling the air fast enough for the higher charged pressure temps. We've actually seen few guys with the larger front mount overheating due to the larger intercooler creating more heat + reducing the fresh air flow past the engine radiator, resulting in engine high temps. Again this isn't a situation of just a couple WOT's and cruises, it's going hard out in a circuit road track situation.

Being the 3.0 guys have the same block as the 5.0 guys, it's really just an adapter plate that's needed to fit the larger 1900 series(why stop at 1320 or 1740). Actually, it might even be possible to take a 5.0 intake and blower, machine off the back and close it off. You would then have a bolt on part that matches to the same throttle body and pulley location.

There's a bunch of stuff going around in our heads(like the above), problem is time and $$$. No lie, Stuart had even mentioned the idea of a XE 5.0 long before the whole Project 8 sparked up, idea was to take a wrecked R and swap over everything and make it manual shift. Stuart actually almost pulled the trigger on a brand new car to test fit.. most of these projects, we would need a shop car to do all these kind of testing and fittings. Problem with using a clients car for test fit, well they make car payments and time isn't always on our side to have this kind of job completed in X time.

 

The APR intercooler is the front mount heat exchanger, not in the blower. I am pretty active in the Audi world and just have a hard time justifying the ultra charger on a platform where there is a better engine available. I.E., I can see it on the S4 where there is no other option, but seems silly on the A6/7 where there is a tt v8 option. Same thoughts here. It is just too much money for diminishing returns.

 

Understood...but we don't have a V8 option with the MT.

 

Chris,
Any chance you could reconfigure the V6 ECU to manage a V8 or to reconfigure a V8 ECU to block communications with an auto transmission? The ZF 6S-53 manual tranny would pair with the V8. I'd stick with the 6S-45 until it grenades.

 

Makes sense then. What is this cat issue that you have been mentioning? I have modified many cars and added forced injection in the past, but never run into an issue with the stock cats.

 

Hello @Stuart@VelocityAP,

I am thinking about buying from you a crank pulley + tune during this winter.
I am taking my car many times per year to a racing ring. Just for fun...but I always drive as fast as I can. :-)

My question on you is reliability after your tune and crank pulley. I don't see a big problem on a normal road, but what on a track under full load for 5 x 20 minutes? Is there something I need to be careful about?

Thank you for you comments.