Using my 1960 3.8l Mk2 in Southwest Florida's summer traffic is a challenge, especially when the AirCon (RetroAir) is on (How could you survive without it?). After three or four traffic lights, the temperature gauge start an inexorable move towards the boiling point. I added some mods (Aluminum radiator, pusher fan, new improved water pump from XK Unlimited, recovery tank, improved plastic fan to replace the heavy 12 blade engine fan) but I still feel the heat.. Next move would be to use a 3" bilge exhaust turbine connected to a 5' time delay relay to try to remove some of the heat air from under the hood when the car is parked.
I know that this is an ever recurring problems with the cars we love, but I was wondering about Evans cooling fluid and whether it should be added to may array of anti-heat solutions. Does anyone has an experience (good or bad) with Evans? I have read the following story (Evans Classic Cool Waterless Coolant Jaguar Mk2 Does It Work? | We Are Classic Cars) which seems positive, but I would love more opinions about it. Let's also precise that 1) the engine has been rebuilt and is very clean, 2) I am using the right thermostat, 3) I have checked the ignition advance (many times) and 4) the carbs are rebuilt and tuned. Just so that we do not waste time wandering off the right track.
Thank you.

JP
Naples, SW Florida
1960 3.8 Mk2 Auto

 

Hi JP,
I am sorry. I cannot be helpful, but I am very interested in your future cooling strategies. I have just rebuilt my engine, installed the Retro Air system and aluminum radiator. When we did the engine test run-in we used Evans Waterless Coolant and that is my plan for the engine once installed. Just not to that point yet.

Lin

 

If you've already got an overheating problem the LAST thing you want is a coolant that is inferior to a conventional type at rejecting heat.

Please do a search around the site, the subject has been discussed many times, almost always with me right in the middle of it. This product offers no real-world advantages and has some disadvantages.

 

Mikey,
I have seen your posts and I would certainly agree that Evans will not cure a problem. But that is not the point: I don't have an overheating problem. My car behaves normally cooling wise on highways at up to 85mph (never went beyond that), even in SW Florida. If I don't use the air conditioning, I have no problems, even in traffic. I am simply worried that, when I turn on the air conditioning the heat under the hood becomes unbearable (to the point that I could not use winter gas this year and yes they do sell very volatile winter gas in SW Florida) in the city without having idling issues. Right now we are a 95F ambient, 90% humidity, and the road asphalt is probably at 120F. I know the gauge is kind of very imprecise (to be charitable with Mr Smith) but as soon as use air conditioning in the city, where I need it the most, the needle starts to creep up. It probably gains about 10C. I don't think it ever gets to the boiling point, but I don't want to ruin my engine or stop using my car in summer. The "we are classic cars" web site experience is very similar to mine, as the person uses a MK2 in South Spain with ambient temperature of 40C. He is very careful to say that it may not cool better, but at least the boiling point is pushed back enough that there is no pressurization of the cooling system.
Anyway, thanks for your post. Duly noted that there may be some disadvantages.
Lin,
I love your web site. I will keep you posted on my progress :-)
JP

 

JP-

Thanks for your comments. Some points you might want to consider-

- The Evans coolant expands like any other liquid as it warms, so it pressurizes the system no differently than water or conventional coolant. The 'pressureless' state advertised by Evans is achieved by leaving the rad cap loose. Not sure why anybody would want to do that even if they could.

- If your engine is already running hot enough that you are worried about damage, the Evans coolant will cause it to run even hotter. There is no assurance that mechanical damage will not occur even if the Evans coolant's boiling point is not reached.

- Again, if your car is already running hot enough that the fuel is causing percolation or vapour lock issues, the Evans coolants will make things worse.

You'll gain nothing overall.

BTW- Florida is famous in the old car hobby for fuel related problems. My buddies with old Corvettes suffer the same issues as yourself. Many have resulted to using non-ethanol fuel mixed with Avgas or (very expensive) racing gas.

Good luck, let us know how you get on.

 

Just had a little chat with Roger at Harvey Bailey Engineering in the UK (I am purchasing one of their front anti-sway bars, as the early Mk2 has a ridiculously thin one and the car leans a lot in corners). He told me that at the Silverstone Classic car races in July (E-Type, Mk2, etc..) the temperature was 40C and that the only racers without heating issues were the guys using pure EG. I may try to contact, through him, some of the classic car racers in the South of England to hear what they have to say. I will post whatever I find out from these guys.
Roger pointed out that air conditioning compressor is actually to blame for the heat, as it puts stress on the engine and slows down the water pump while generating a lot of the heat. I do agree with this as even with a brand new belt, my alternator is at the low end of the green stripe when I turn on the air con, and I lose about 150 rpm at idle compared to the no air con rpm.
Cheers,
JP
1960 3.8 Mk2

 

Interesting. Next time you're speaking to your contact in England, please ask him for a greater definition of 'heating issues'.

In fooling around with my old car hobby over the decades, I have found there's many definitions for 'running hot' and 'overheating' or similar terms. Many owners call a temporary rise in operating temps 'overheating' whereas others interpret it to mean the needle going into the red zone accompanied by loss of coolant overboard.

If I understand your situation, you have a temporary rise in coolant temp while in traffic with the AC on, but no other symptoms. If true, the Evans coolant will not improve this.

For your engine idle speed issue, many people add a 12V solenoid to bump the carb open slightly when the compressor kicks in. Jegs and Summit carry them.

I'm also surprised to hear that cars were allowed in a racing event with anything other than pure water in the system. Most tracks forbid any glycol or similar coolant due to it's slippery nature when spilled and difficulty in cleaning it up

 

Mikey,
Thank you. Indeed "running hot" does not mean the same thing for all people. In my case, the needle is well before the 70 deg mark on highways (It is certainly closer or above 80 in reality), then in traffic it will get closer to 70, slowly. If I turn on the AC, then it will go past 70. So, yes I am very conservative about 'running hot".
The problem with the Mk 2 (and other derivatives of the Mk1) is that heat accumulates under the hood, as obviously Jaguar, like any designer of the 50s (and this car's body was basically introduced in 1955, which means a 1952 design and this is the year they lost the 24 hours of Le Mans to Mercedes because the C-Type were all overheating ), did not pay attention to airflow under the hood or the car body itself. Evans will not cure that at all and I will have to find a way to extract all the residual heat by improving the flow of air behind the radiator.
But the other nasty effect is that, as soon as you turn the engine off and the coolant stops circulating, there is a spike in coolant temperature and a sudden increase in pressure with sometimes nasty after effects if you are running a high pressure radiator cap (for example split hoses, blown core plug, etc. I had both of those). So, here is the conundrum: use a 4psi cap, which is what the engine supports safely which reduces the boiling point of whatever coolant you put in there and increases your chances of overheating, use a higher pressure cap and risk damage to the car's engine or cooling system or use Evans to reduce this pressure spike.
In racing over here they apparently use water mixed with water wetter, and that is probably the most effective way to obtain a good heat transfer. I may try that first as I certainly do not need antifreeze down here.
Best,
JP

 

While you have an aluminum radiator it sounds like it is not enough to dissipate the heat; not all aluminum radiators provide enough capacity and are sometimes only slightly better than stock. You might need a better aluminum radiator with more capacity with more rows and more fins per inch, so it can handle the climate and ac system. I am running a custom Wizard radiator to ensure I can keep the ac on even in summertime stop and go traffic with my 450 HP V8

 

yes, it is very possible. The one I have is the one sold by XK Unlimited a few years ago. I should maybe revisit it.
Thank you for your advice.
JP

 

Excellent advice from primaz. Once again, I see a parallel between old Jags and old Corvettes. Undersized rads are a common issue.

I'd try running straight water plus water wetter first to at least evaluate the running temps under the worst conditions.

Another strategy, and put into production on '73 and up Corvettes is to convert the cooling system to incorporate a coolant recovery tank. This retains the standard rating pressure cap to allow the system to build up pressure and then bleed excess pressure or any air to a holding tank during operation. Upon cool down, the cap allows coolant to be drawn back into the rad keeping the system 100% full at all times. The possibility of coolant loss is eliminated.

 

Im relatively new around here but have to absolutely disagree with Evans being inferior. And I am not trying to step on any toes or cause a reoccuring argument here. I will simply state some layman terminology explaining the advantages to Evans and potential disadvantages.

1) ANY COOLANT besides good old H2O is an inferior cooling product. It will neither gain nor release heat as efficiently.

2)Temperature does not kill an engine (to an extent of course). Engines actually like to run on the hotter side of what weve been taught to believe is normal. They run more efficient that way.

3)So what kills engine>? Well Steam pockets and hot spots..OH YOU SAID HOT SPOTS = heat right????..NO!!!! Not exactly

4) So why not just water? Low boiling point. The boiling point of water doesnt quite coincide with the operating temperatures of an internal combustion engine.

5)So what do we do? We pressurize the system. Think pressure cooker! We also add "coolant to give corrosion and freeze protection and increase the boiling point a bit. Corrosion and freezing....Big issues. Also increases boiling point a bit. Pressure....Now that san issue as well.

6)So why not pure coolant and no water? Well conventional coolant is just not very effective at the taking in or releasing of heat. The mixture reccomended is a compramise between engine protection and efficiency.

7)What back to what kills engines insumamry? Steam pockets. Steam pockets in your coolant system will cause hot spots which cause detonation. Thats why pure water is a no go when pressurised and why conventional coolant mixes that contain water when running hot will cause detonation. Steam is forms and collects at certain locations (pockets) in your coolant system. There is no way around this. It happens when you overheat and happens when you dont.

8)Whats good about Evans coolant? Its formulated to be more efficient than a standard conventional coolant straight up. At lower temperatures it may not be as efficient as a concentional coolant mixed with water though..... HOWEVER

7) EVans coolant will allow your engine to run MORE efficiently with LESS chance of detonation at a higher temperature. Steam/Hot spots kill engines. Evans does not boil at internal combustion engine operating tempuratures.

Now EVANS will not fix a coolant system issue. However I can tell you without a doubt with the proper coolant system EVANS is God Send. My 800 plus RWHP turbo car runs Evans. It runs a bit hotter than it di don conventional coolant/water mix however knock....Whats that? No Steam, no hot spots....Less chance of knock/detonation.

Where you may have issues with Evans? Computer controlled vehicles that may cut timing due to a hotter temperature range. Engine issue no..Performance issue perhaps. I havent run into that issue but its possible. Transmisison coolers in radiator. Your transmisison can run hotter which can be an issue. External transmission cooler..Problem solved. Have a heat exchanger that runs of of engine coolant. It will be less efficient. You are not having hot spot issues that can effect performance here. I always run a seperate loop for my heat exchanger/IC's. Problem solved(I have not done so on my XJR or XKR). In this case I run a pure water with redline water wetter in the summer and a conventional coolant based mix in the winter.

So basically if you have an old school non computer controlled manual car..GO FOR IT. Otherwise you have a bit of research to do and things to take into consideration. I cant begin to tell you how nice it is to have a car that does NOT EVER boil over and overheat...DOES NOT CAVITATE at high RPM's and has practically no internal pressure saving my hoses and engine from the pressure cooker effect. 850 plus turbo rwhp out of a V6 is a handful in many ways and I wouldnt look anywhere else but Evans.

You can always call Evans Direct and they are more than happy to talk to you about thier product and what you may hav eto do to efficiently run it. Bottomline though which has been mentioned is that it will not solve a coolant system issue.

And I am a scientist/engineer by education and background. I fully understand the pros and cons to this type of system without anyone having to brainwash me either way..And again not trying to cause a problem here. I just often have this discussion. people either get it or they dont..Kind of like Climate Change........Well not really like climate change.....:O) I may have missed a few points....But this is the basic picture. I may try it on my xkr at some point but only after I better understand the computer programming parameters and look into a few mods that will need to be done. I wouldnt just dump it into that car

 

With all due respect, the OP's car does not seem to suffer from 'steam pockets', cavitation or detonation. The last thing he would want is a car that runs even hotter than it does in an attempt to gain some small margin of efficiency.

The same would apply to just about any car including anything made by Jag.

 

One of the biggest problems with old vehicles is they tend to sit and with conventional 50/50 coolant and water, older engines have a tendency to corrode.
My 51 Bentley is a perfect example of this, when I bought the car I overhauled the engine and there was much corrosion in the head, water pump, the steel plates that block off the casting holes in the block, etc.
Much of it was so bad that most of all the small bits had to be repaired or replaced.
The other problem is that there are allot of aluminum parts in these engines and they're just straight aluminum, not alloy and are very prone to corrosion.
The water in the 50/50 mix eventually starts oxidizing the innards of the engine even with the inhibitors in the coolant, I change the coolant in my Bentley every year because of this problem.
Evens coolant would be perfect for my car as well as my 340 Jag because what I have discussed here.


Even more so for the Bentley because it's an open system (not pressurized).
It keeps itself cool because Rolls-Royce put this massive radiator in it, but even with that, driven hard up long steep grades it reaches near boiling point.


As far as the OP is concerned, a rad with another row or two of tubes with more fins packed closer together. It depends how much room there is, if the rad becomes too thick.
A full shroud that surround the whole rad would help, rather then just the shroud around the electric cooling fan.



Adding air conditioning to a cooling system and an engine that was designed for it is the biggest problem.
Engines with a long strong are simply less efficient of getting rid of heat because the block is deeper then an engine with a short stroke.
The coolant flows more efficiently through a block that is not as deep as an engine with a short stroke.
Rolls Royce knew this problem and made an attempt to do something about by adding a brass duct with holes drilled in it that runs the length of the block to help spread the "cool" water around that comes from the water pump.
The duct runs near the top of the block, right where combustion takes place _ the hottest part of the engine..