Wow... I didn't realize that I'm not a sensible driver. He He.....
Ok, I am a normal to fast driver, and also realize that nothing is "lifetime". I am on a 5k and synthetic oil change cycle. I know the debate over conventional and synthetic. I choose the synthetic for my own reasons... The trans has me a bit worried. I read about shift quality issues, programming updates, golden fluid requirements, etc. I notice that mine feels weird every now and then. I know it has adaptive software, and under some conditions it will try to adapt. I just don't trust the previous owner of my car. I mean, come on, they hit a rock or something with the rocker and just had the plastic panel replaced without fixing the damage underneath. Luckily it wasn't enough to mess with the alignment of the unibody, and my dealer willingly fixed it after I discovered it. They didn't have to, but they did at no cost to me. So, with 42k now showing on the od, should I be planning on getting the trans serviced? Or, do I hold off since it is a certified car and wait to see if it self destructs?

 

I believe that the ZF transmission's adaptive software quirks can often cause those of us who don't buy into the concept of "lifetime" transmission fluid to think that we have a transmission issue when we really don't. We worry about what the previous owner did or did not do and as Real Tech said, if it was a lease then the previous owner probably spent the minimum amount of time, money, and effort on proper maintenance. My S-Type was indeed a three-year lease down in Fort Lauderdale, but it was barely driven (18,000 miles) and certainly not abused. The guy unfortunately followed Jaguar's 10,000-mile oil-and-filter change service schedule so it only received two oil changes during the three years that he leased it. Will these facts come back to haunt me down the road? I have no idea, but I certainly used all of this information to my advantage when I made my best-and-final offer to purchase....

I truly believe that not including a transmission fluid dipstick on this car was a major mistake by Jaguar and ZF. The level, color, and condition of the transmission fluid can tell you so much about where your own particular transmission stands in its need for service. I would feel much more comfortable about the entire subject of when to service S-Type transmissions if we all had transmission dipsticks....

On the other hand, those of us with ZF transmissions should take some comfort that we DON'T have the original Ford transmissions. There is no question that we have a much better chance of actually going 80,000 or 100,000 miles on our factory fluid with no problems....

 

So I am coming up on 80K on the ODO...is this something that should start to be considered???

 

I would... I'm going to do it on the minivan this year and it only has 42k on it. I'm going to hold off on the Jag for now but that may change this spring. The only thing preventing me from doing it myself is I don't want to void the warranty by messing with it. I could just see it, I have a trans problem, they see a new pan and fluid, and come back with "I'm so sorry Mr. Osworth but a replacement trans will be (insert second mortgage here)."

 

How many miles on your S-Type right now?

 

Having to look into the ZF transmission for different reasons, lifetime seemed to be defined from Jag sources as 100Kmiles and the ZF rep claims that ZF recommends a 50K mile fluid change (can't get this documented anywhere).

Assuming that lifetime is codeword for longtime, and the accepted process seems to be drain and refill via the plug on the bottom and side of the transmission with about 6 qts at a time, what do people think replacement means?

For example, each drain will replenish 50% of the fluid. Do you do it once and claim replacement with 50% new and 50% old? Do you do it twice and claim 75% new, 25% old? Do you do it three times and get 87.5% new and 12.5% old?

Assuming that there is a significant amount of the "old stuff" in there, does the next service interval come at a soon rate. Lets say you believe that lifetime = 50K miles and change out only 50% of the fluid. Is the next change at 25Kmiles?

Combined with the high cost (Jag or ZF lifeguard6) or mid cost (Pentoin/Redline) of fluids plus potential labor, filter, and bolt charges, its pretty expensive to change out 90% of the fluid ($60x6x3 = $1080 in fluid alone).

So first off, its there a better process - i.e. line taps for cooler lines that can increase the % of new without using so much fluid?

Secondly, how much remaining old fluid would you tolerate and called it "replaced"? Does anyone know if Jaguar or ZF has any guidance?

 

390HPTypeR:
Please do a search for CCC's great ZF transmission fluid change thread. He REALLY nailed all the in's and out's of this. I plan on changing my fluid as I have just crossed 51K miles on my 2005 STR.

Again CCC you did a great job on this!!!

I have attached a Jaguar TSB with the factory fluid change instructions. Jaguar does it twice and replaces 6 Liters or Quarts (It does not say but I am sure it's L) each time. Now this TSB is for another transmission problem so don't let the title throw you off!
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Jaguar won't be using quarts. What a horrid way to partially flush the trans oil.

 

Thanks for the info! Looks like I've got another drain and fill ahead of me. With the need for 12 qts for the flush, that 20litre jug of the ZF fluid is starting to look like a viable option for the DIY'er.

Without a filter change or leak on the second fill, I'll try to see if a drain at room temp - measure out - partial fill - start the engine/run thorugh gears - and top off with the same volume works...sure will save quite a bit of time.

 

Isn't there an oil cooler loop from the tranny through the side of the main radiator? (I suspect this but have had no chance to trace the piping.) Access won't be good to break into it but then you could let it pull new fluid in and let the old out.

 

I really appreciate all your insight and guidance on this subject, ccc. Please keep us updated on whether you do a second drain-and-fill or decide to try a different approach. I'd like to believe that your initial drain-and-fill was good enough. But who knows?

 

JagV8:
Yes there is a cooler line and you could get to it to flush the transmission fluid. I would want to do this after I have changed the integrated filter/pan unit. I still don't agree with Jaguar and ZF about not dropping the pan and replacing the filter. I have done too many transmissions to not drop the pan to inspect and clean the pan magnet. Of course with our setup the pan and filter are one and the same!!
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Will I think the fluid should be flushed out and change out the filter/pan after the flush. I just ordered Pentoin ATF 1 20L. For $227, so I can do a complete flush on our Trans. The Trans holds 10.5l with cooler and TC. So I am going to do a flush, then change out the filter and the seal that is leaking, then refill the trans that’s going to be like some were around 5-7L I think. Then we will see how the Trans act with some new fluid. The fluid should be changed out every 2yr or 40k. I think, most of the issues we have with our Trans is the fluid that jaguar uses and not being changed as often as it should. I think Pentosin is a better fluid and is a full synthetic and allot of BMW’S and MB'S and AUDI'S use them with no problems. Just my two cents..

 

The fluid selection seems to be a controversal topic. A lot of ZF6 folks use the pentoin fluid and I am sure it works quite well. The only draw back that I see is that although some vendor websites claim its Shell spec compatible (also the Jaguar requirement); however, I was not able to find any pentoin sourced info that supports that claim. The two fluids with manuf. claimed shell spec compliance is the redline (synth) and castrol (non-synth); however, it does have the added red dye.

On the ZF website there is a spec sheet that shows the different clutch rebuild kits for the different variation of the ZF transmissions based on the number stamped on the case. I would be good to see that the MB and BMW folks use the same clutch part numbers as the Jaguar's.

In my case, the ZF disti was out of stock on the proper fluid at will-call, the pentosin needed to be mail ordered so the redline was selected since it a) meet the manuf. spec, b) was a full synth, and c) was locally available ($8-9 per qt).

So after about 6k miles with 1 change of redline on a 04 STR, the transmission seems to shift smoother and the lockup time between gear changes seems to be faster. In fact with moderate acceleration (keeping up with traffic), its hard to tell the transmission is shifting unless I look at the tach so its a big night and day difference. The only drawback is that it seems the tq converter locks a bit sooner which implies that if I drive really slow from a stop, the torque converter starts to function at lower rpm where the engine has less torque so it feels a bit different (like letting up the clutch at a lower then normal rpm) not quite a bog but can tell the engine is more strained then normal. With normal acceleration, its a non issue and overall, the transmission performance seems to be improved.

 

here is a spec sheet for pentosin and here is a website the say's Equivalent to: Shell M-1375.4
http://www.rmeuropean.com/Part-Numbe..._9BA48850.aspx

every one i talked to is using pentosin, and works good.

 

Thanks for the update, ccc. Please keep us posted on how your ZF continues to perform with the Redline fluid you selected. A number of folks here are very interested....

 

Folks,

I think this entire transmission fluid is a confusing issue and I don't pretend to have all of the answers, only what I used to guide my decision.

For the ZF5 (5-speed transmission), there is a ESSO LT71141 spec. As far as I can tell, the ESSO spec for the ZF5 maps the the ZF's TE-ML-11B spec. The pentosin fluid meets that spec along with a bunch of other fluids. (See attached spec from pentosin and table of fluids from ZF)

The ZF6 (6-speed transmission) from Jaguar calls out for the Shell spec. It seems like BMW may be using the same spec. The only fluids that i've found that meet this spec is redline and castol (based on manuf. claims). There is a vendor website the claims Pentosin meets this spec but I have not found the same claim from Pentosin or any other vendors.

I can't seem to find a cutsheet for the ZF fluids so I'll check on another machine later. If I remember correctly, the lifeguard6 and lifeguard5 fluids seem to meet a number of TE-ML-xx specs. So they have an internal system for their fluid with no mention of the shell or esso spec. The ZF spec don't seem to be public info. The only thing that is clear to me is that there are two fluids, one for the ZF5 and one for the ZF6. Doesn't seem like any auto manuf. uses ZF specs in their recommendations.

My gut feel is that the two fluids are more alike then different and both a variation of dex III. My first choice was the ZF6 fluid from ZF. The second choice would have been the synth fluid from redline due to the Shell/Jaguar spec compliance and the 3rd choice would be the pentosin fluid due to feedback from many ZF6 users inspite meeting the esso but not the shell spec. I tried to get the ZF6 but settled for #2 even though its not the beaten path.

I did try to compare the spec of the ZF6 and ZF5 compatible fluids - like viscosity, etc and there seems to be a fairly signficant variation among the "recommended" fluids so in the end, it may not be that critical if you don't plan on using it for another lifetime.

BTW, found a mapping of different fluids from the manufacturer. From the Hynudai forum, they seem to sell it at $75/qt vs Jaguar at $60/qt. Perhaps its cheaper at the Bentley or Maserati dealer.

According to spare part number of vehicle manufacturer:
ZF Lifeguardfluid6 (ZF No. S671 090 255)
=> AML Oil No. 4G4319A509/AA/S
=> Audi /VW Oil No. G 055005 A1 / A2 / A6
=> Bentley Oil No. PY112995PA
=> BMW Oil No. 8322 0142516
=> Hyundai Oil No. 040000C90SG
=> Jaguar Oil No. Jaguar Fluid 8432
=> Land Rover Oil No. TYK500050

=> Maserati Oil No. 231603


He is a list of fluids that meet the ZF-11B spec for the ZF5

Manufacturer (11B) Trade name (11B)

ADDINOL LUBE OIL GMBH, LEUNA/D ADDINOL ATF D III
AGIP SCHMIERTECHNIK GMBH, WÜRZBURG/D AGIP DEXRON III
ARAL AG, BOCHUM/D ARAL GETRIEBEÖL ATF LD
BP INTERNATIONAL, PANGBOURNE, READING/GB BP AUTRAN LTF
CASTROL INTERNATIONAL, PANGBOURNE READING/GB CASTROL TRANSMAX Z
DEUTSCHE PENTOSIN WERKE GMBH, WEDEL/D PENTOSIN ATF 1
DEUTSCHE PENTOSIN WERKE GMBH, WEDEL/D PENTOSIN ATF TYP 2 D
EXXON MOBIL CORPORATION, FAIRFAX, VIRGINIA/USA ESSO ATF D 21065
EXXON MOBIL CORPORATION, FAIRFAX, VIRGINIA/USA ESSO ATF LT 71141
EXXON MOBIL CORPORATION, FAIRFAX, VIRGINIA/USA MOBIL ATF D 21065
EXXON MOBIL CORPORATION, FAIRFAX, VIRGINIA/USA MOBIL ATF LT 71141
KOMPRESSOL-OEL VERKAUFS GMBH, KÖLN/D KOMPRESSOL-DEXRON SYNTH LTF
KUWAIT PETROLEUM R&T B.V., EUROPOORT RT/NL Q8 AUTO 15
MORRIS LUBRICANTS, SHREWSBURY/GB LIQUIMATIC SUPER ATF
OMV REFINING & MARKETING GMBH, WIEN/A OMV ATF III
ORLEN OIL SP. Z O.O., KRAKOW/PL HIPOL ATF III
PANOLIN AG, MADETSWIL/CH PANOLIN ATF DEXRON III
REPSOL YPF LUBRICANTES Y ESPECIALIDADES, MADRID/E REPSOL ATF 3
TOTAL LUBRIFIANTS S.A., PARIS/F FINAMATIC HP
TOTAL LUBRIFIANTS S.A., PARIS/F TOTAL FLUIDE AT 42
YACCO, ST PIERRE LES ELBEUF/F YACCO ATF III
ZELLER + GMELIN GMBH & CO., EISLINGEN/D DIVINOL FLUID III G

ZF GETRIEBE GMBH, SAARBRÜCKEN/D ZF LIFEGUARDFLUID5

 

The local Jag dealer recommended that I do this at 35K miles. I talked to my European car guys that have a Jag tech on premise who spent 9 years at the Jag dealership. He said "NO" ... do not change it...unnecessary unless there's a leak or shifting issue.

 

35k is ludicrous, the general consensus seems to be 75k + I'd go with that rather than never.

 

It seems like companies like Castrol, Penstosin, Redline and Amsoil could test their fluids on say, 100 cars over a period of 3 years and see how it works out. Change oil every year. If the cars fail based on the fluid characteristics, they could offer to replace the transmissions for free. I'd sign up in a moment.

I daresay that it would cost a lot less than employing a bunch of research scientists in lab coats in India to determine the same thing that they could get from good field data.

What say you?