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Old 07-16-2012, 10:33 PM
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Default Rough Idle Misfire - RESOLVED

I have a 2004 X-type with 112k miles. Couple months ago I had the spark plugs and coils replaced. A few days ago the car starting running rough like its misfiring. The engine shakes while idle and while driving. I pulled the codes and they were: p0302, p1314 and p1316 (p0304 and p1111 were pending). I then replaced the imt seals, fuel filter, PVC hose, and cleaned the maf sensor. The old imt seals were hissing. I reset the codes and started up the car. The codes are gone except for p1000 but the car is still idling rough and misfiring. I can smell fuel coming from somewhere, exhaust maybe. My next idea is to replace the intake manifold gaskets. If that doesn't fix the issue I don't know where to go from there. Can someone please help?
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Old 07-17-2012, 07:10 AM
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stewie, based on the P0302 code, cylinder 2 is misfiring. It may be possible you have a bad coil there or the plug has gotten fouled some how. I would look at cylinder 2 and see what you can find. PUll the COP and the plug and see what they look like. The COP should not have any cracks in the top of it (clear coat area). If you see a crack, that would be a good sign that the COP is failing on you. From there, see what you have and go from there.
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Old 07-17-2012, 10:31 AM
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Cylinder 2 is first on the front, left if I'm standing at the front of the vehicle correct? I replace that coil and all of the spark plugs since they were easy to replace. The car is still idling rough but no codes. I used Bosch platinum +4 which I read these jags don't particularly like. I will replace the plugs with double platinum and see if that helps. Does it take a while for car to register a check engine code? The car clearly isn't running correctly. Thanks for your response!
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Old 07-17-2012, 10:33 AM
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Sorry, to be clear, I replaced only the plugs in the front with Bosch +4. Haven't tried pulling the intake manifold yet. Thanks
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Old 07-17-2012, 03:37 PM
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stewie, get those +4's out of there and see what you have then. I bet you will find that your kitty will be purring once again. Pulling the intake manifold is easy if you are willing to do a plug change. The big thing to be aware of is how to remove the vacuum line off of the top of the intake and then where the 4 hidden bolts are for the back side of the intake (hint, 2 are on the back side facing the fire wall, kinda on the underside of the intake, the other 2 are in the opening between the intake and the throttle body, tucked back in there a little bit). After that, the rest is pretty straight forward. You will read that some recommend replacing the gaskets, some do not. I say look at the gaskets and go from there. If you go to the local parts store, you can pick up a set of gaskets for the top half of the intake for around $25. if you go to Jag, they are like $8 a gasket (you would need 6 of them). The gaskets are reusable. So, be smart, make sure the surfaces are clean and get all 6 plugs in there that are the double platinums.
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Old 07-17-2012, 04:23 PM
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I removed the intake manifold (upper and lower) and replaced both sets of gaskets. I replaced all spark plugs with autolite double platinum. The coils are only about 2 months old and look in good shape. They aren't oem so not sure of the quality or if one or more have failed. When I pulled the plugs there appears there is oil on the threads and tips. I put everything back together and noticed the map sensor harness has a damaged wire (the orange one). Anyway, I started the car and it's still idling like crap. I disconnected the map sensor and tried starting the car and I started up and runs the same, like crap. I'm thinking my issue is with the orange wire to the map sensor being damaged but I'm not sure the best way to fix it. I can splice in a new peice of wire and solder it? Is there a better way to repair these harnesses? Thanks for your help! I really appreciate it.
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Old 07-17-2012, 05:38 PM
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stewie, if the wire is still intact, just the insulation is gone, the stuff I would recommend is called "Raychem". In your case, you are probably going to be looking for some "Raychem WCSF-070". This stuff is heat shrink on steroids. I use it at work where we need things to survive a nuclear melt down. You can find it on e-bay for fairly cheap. In your case, if the damage is near the plug, you simply slide the pin out of the plug, remove any tape/restraints to the wire harness between the end of the wire and the bare area, slide a piece of the shrink tubing down to cover the bare spot (best if you can leave an extra inch to either side of the damage insulation) and then you use a heat gun or like to shrink it down. What you want to look for is as you are shrinking it down, a little "orange donut" will appear at the end of the tube. This is part of the adhesive coming out the end. What is happening is the heat shrink tubing is sealing itself to the wiring so the weather can not get in and damage the wiring any more. Normal heat shrink tubing does not do this. Also, this makes the wiring good for up to a few thousand volts too should you so desire.
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Old 07-17-2012, 05:49 PM
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I went ahead and cut out the corroded portion of the wire and soldered in a small section. No change in the idle. The only thing I can think of is replace all the coils. Is there anyway to test the coils with an ohm meter? Could it be a bad catalytic converter? I hope its not that. Thanks.
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Old 07-18-2012, 06:57 AM
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stewie, there is no real check you can do to the coils. You can do a resistance check and make sure that they are all about the same, but that really only is a go-no go check.

Before you go and replace all the COPs, try running a bottle or two of fuel injector cleaner through the car. It may be that you have a fuel injector that is clogging up and it leading to it leaking fuel all the time (hence you smell of gas). If you have an infrared thermometer, you can check the temps of the cats. If you see one that is significantly hotter than the other (more than 50F difference), the hotter side is the one with the issue. Odds are, you are going to find the one in the front being the one with the issue (since it is associated with cylinder #2).
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Old 07-18-2012, 04:41 PM
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Just drove it down the street to get some injector cleaner and to fill the tank since the tank was low. It idled rough in reverse but while I was driving down the road it seemed to be running fine. At idle it seems almost normal. Seems like it maybe be idling very slightly rough but it may be just in my head. I'm taking it to have the catalytic converters looked by a muffler shop to rule at the possibility of a bad cat. What would cause it to idle rough in reverse but more or less normal otherwise. Could it be that I just needed to run the car for a while after replacing everything above to clear everything out? Thanks for helping me troubleshoot Thermo!
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Old 07-18-2012, 05:57 PM
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Really, the only different that the car sees is clear out to the end of the tranny where it is adding in a gear to make the drive shafts spin the other direction. Everything else is essentially the same. The gear ratio of reverse is about the same as that of 1st gear. So, the loading on the engine is similar. Could it be that when you were in Reverse, the motor was cold and when you were going in the ahead direction the motor was up near normal operating temp. That would have the car running rich when cold (ie, your reverse time), but as you drove more, the car would back off and return to more of a typical fuel mixture. This could be a sign of a fuel injector issue. Drop in a bottle or two of injector cleaner and see what you have then. If you are going to have an easy fix, that is going to be the answer.
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Old 07-18-2012, 06:14 PM
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Thanks. The after the guy from the muffler shop drove it the engine shaking is definitely back. Chech engine light is back on with codes p0302, p1314, and p1316 just as before. They measured the temps of the exhaust which were: front, 430 before cat and 640 after cat; back, 300 before cat and 300 after cat. He says the front cat is working too hard and the rear cat isn't doing anything. Not sure what that means in terms of whether the cats are the issue, or the engine is the issue. May have to have it towed to the jag shop to have figure out the issue. I put in a bottle of Lucas injector cleaner but there wasnt an immediate improvement. Don't really want to drive it in this condition in fear of making things worse.
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Old 07-19-2012, 06:48 PM
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Stewie, based on the temp rise across the front cat, I would venture to guess that you have a bad fuel injector or bad coil. So, now the question is whether you want to try replacing the coil or the injector. The easier one is the coil. That is nothing more than removing the air box and swapping coils between say #2 and #6. If the misfire moves to #6, then you know it is the coil. If it stays with #2, then odds are it is the injector. From there, you remove the intake and replace the injector.

As for the rear cat, it may be that due to the one cylinder running rich, the other cylinders are running a little bit lean, which would account for the indications that you are seeing. Get the more serious problem fixed first and then see what you have at that point.
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Old 07-20-2012, 08:41 AM
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[quote=Thermo;545958]stewie, there is no real check you can do to the coils. You can do a resistance check and make sure that they are all about the same, but that really only is a go-no go check.
quote] You can check the functionality of each coil with a COP tester. You simply place the paddle on top of the Coil and the tester will look for proper kV (coil output) is sufficient and for the presence of arc duration. Go on www.amazon.com and type COP tester in the search box - they run between $80 - $100 - well worth the investment.

This tester will catch the slightest intermitient misfire, even at idle. Why do I mention this... I do so because odds are all of your coils are not bad and most people resort to replacing all coils instead of the faulty one.

Another point on coils - seeping oil into the spark well will simply fry the coil, so when you pull the coils if you see any oil residue it's best to get those spark well gaskets changed out before replacing the coil(s) or risk changing them again quickly down the road and wasting $$$ - my $0.02
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Old 07-20-2012, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stewie18 View Post
Thanks. The after the guy from the muffler shop drove it the engine shaking is definitely back. Chech engine light is back on with codes p0302, p1314, and p1316 just as before. They measured the temps of the exhaust which were: front, 430 before cat and 640 after cat; back, 300 before cat and 300 after cat. He says the front cat is working too hard and the rear cat isn't doing anything. Not sure what that means in terms of whether the cats are the issue, or the engine is the issue. May have to have it towed to the jag shop to have figure out the issue. I put in a bottle of Lucas injector cleaner but there wasnt an immediate improvement. Don't really want to drive it in this condition in fear of making things worse.
Check your connection at the fuel injector and ensure the injector connector is fully seated into the fuel injector. Also, do not continue to drive until the issue is fixed as if it is a misfiring coil unburnt fuel is passing through the cats and will eventually burn those cats out...
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Old 07-20-2012, 10:41 AM
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I already tried swapping the coil on cylinder #2 but the code is still p302. Is it possible to replace a single injector easily? I called the dealership and they said they were integrated into the lower manifold and that I would have to buy the whole kit with injectors and lower manifold which is $1400. I see single injectors on eBay for $50 however. Also, I remember when replacing the lower manifold gaskets that the injector on cylinder 6 (front drivers side) was loose from the fuel rail. I figured it was because I removed fuel rail bolts to remove the lower manifold. There was some fuel that sprayed out from that injector as I positioned the lower manifold with fuel rail attached to get to the lower gasket. Thanks for the help!
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Old 07-20-2012, 03:53 PM
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I believe you can swap out a single injector - when doing so ensure you swap out the O-rings for new. I would swap those O-Rings on injector #6 as well. Also, ensure you relieve the fuel pressure before fiddling with any of those injectors as well.
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:20 PM
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stewie, if your 04 is like my 03, you will have to pull the upper half of the intake off, but from there, you undo 2 more bolts and the injector rail will slide off and you can access the fuel injectors. I would HIGHLY!!! recommend getting a box of fuel injector o-rings. Why do I say this? Easy. Those o-rings love to roll off of the injectors as you are pulling them out of the fuel rail. Catching them is a royal PITA and they drop down into the well of the engine and pulling them out is very difficult. Much easier just to take it slow, try to control the o-rings and if one or two falls down, you put on a new one and keep moving. It is like $5 for a box of them (which is enough to do 3 injectors, top and bottom). I learned the hard way.
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Old 07-21-2012, 04:27 AM
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I ordered a new fuel injector and and a full set of injector o rings (top and bottom). I'll swap out the injector on cylinder 2 and replace the o rings on injector #6 when the parts arrive and report back with findings. Thanks for your help Thermo and abonano!
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Old 07-31-2012, 02:02 AM
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I fixed the problem. I replaced the injector on cylinder #2 and o rings on all the other injectors. Put it back together and the car was still misfiring. Pulled the new coil from cylinder 2 and put the old one back on and it started up and idled fine, no misfire. Took it for a drive it drove great, no misfiring. I'm not sure why the old coil works fine now. My guess is that the aftermarket coils are not good quality. Maybe I over torqued the bolts to coils the last time, not sure. Anyways I'm happy she's driving we'll again. May have to invest in that coil tester in the future. Ill definately buy OEM coils if I need to in the future. Thanks for the help!
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Old 07-31-2012, 02:02 AM
 
 
 
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air, bad, car, cat, cleaner, fix, fuel, idle, injector, low, misfire, rough, running, working, xtype



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