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Realised I haven't posted here yet about this, but I'm in the process of rebuilding the engine of my XF :-(
Long story short, Service message had been on the dash for a couple of weeks, and I'd booked time on a lift on Sunday to change the oil and check over stuff. The day before I was doing some "spirited" pulls on the freeway - nothing stupid or out of the ordinary - and the last one sounded quite....off, but I needed to take the next exit anyway. Pulling away from the lights there was all sorts of horrible knocking noises, so I pulled into a side road and switched it off. Lifted hood, couldn't see anything unusual - started it again and it sounded like a bag of wrenches so immediately stopped it (while the engine was still unsiezed!).
Had it towed to the shop where I was going to do the oil change the next day and we drained out about 3 quarts of rather glittery oil :-(
I'm in the process of stripping the engine down to find out what went wrong but suffice to say something fairly major has failed - there was a very small weep from the vacuum pump and I had a new seal to fit when I changed the oil, but you don't leak that much oil without noticing - in my opinion that has to have burned off.
I admit I haven't checked the oil level for a while, mainly because the system appears to be so temperamental with engine temp etc and most of the time just displays "NOT AVAILABLE - SEE HANDBOOK" - but afaik when it gets to a critical level shouldn't it have displayed something on the information console? It's important/interesting to note that I have had NO oil level/pressure messages on the display, even when something was clearly wrong with knocking noises etc. I don't have much knowledge of these ultrasonic level sensors but I guess it's possible it could've failed.
At the moment I think a rebuild is the best option rather than a replacement engine as for the engine to be remotely affordable it would have to come on a pallet with completely unknown history and need to be rebuilt anyway.
It's been an interesting learning experience, and so far I've learned that there are two different crankshaft pulley bolts, one reverse threaded and one normal (you can tell by what's printed on the bolt head), which I'm glad I read up on before trying to remove mine, and that there are two different pitches of timing chain - 6.35mm or 8.0mm. Mine has the 6.35mm chains, the replacement cost of which are about 5 or 6 times more than the 8.0mm pitch chains, so I'm hoping the smaller pitch chain/tensioners/guides are still available (even if more expensive) as swapping all the gears and drives to 8.0mm will not be a cheap option, especially as the 8.0mm chains appear to require different upper timing covers (at $750 each alone) along with new VVT units, fuel pump drive, etc - basically everything the chain touches.
Fortunately the DIY Shop the car (and now mostly-disassembled engine) is in has loads of great tools which has made the whole process much easier - the only problem I now forsee is getting hold of replacement parts, as it seems that Jaguar would (of course) rather sell you a shortblock or complete engine, and I figure for the price they're asking I could rebuild with custom-made shells/pistons/rings etc for less.
So...... anyone heard of anything like this happening? I haven't seen so much in this forum, but I've definitely seen talk in others e.g. the XK forum or on the Range Rover sites, especially with reference to early timing gear failures. Even the workshop manual talks about the tensioner/guide design changing and to make sure you don't fit the earlier components back in, so it's possible this problem has existed for a long time.
I'll be sure to update with some progress pics/updates if anyone's interested.
Sorry to hear about your troubles. Nice job on getting the motor out. Did you pull it or drop it?
Hmmm... did you have any noise prior to the failure?
I have a lug lug noise at idle on the passenger side with a tick that can be heard above the passenger vvt gears on at idle.
I've had zero check engine lights and will be getting the timing replaced. The dealer said timing but couldn't guarantee anything, and the indi said wait until you get a CEL.
My gut tells me it's the vvt and what I read about Ford motors with failing vvt's . From what I've read...There is a tab that sheers off and the spring breaks. When oil pressure builds .. all is good.
By and large I've heard the 5.0 was pretty solid...
Thanks - I had heard the same thing but reading Mark's original thread I'm intrigued to know what went wrong as it sounds like exactly the same thing as happened to me.
I suspect I would have a lot less luck than Mark as my car was purchased without warranty in March 2013 and whilst I've been religious with oil changes at the specified period and using the correct oil, that's a battle with Jaguar that I'm unlikely to win I suspect. Especially as I've almost completely dismantled the engine by this point
Originally Posted by Shadow993
Sorry to hear about your troubles. Nice job on getting the motor out. Did you pull it or drop it?
Hmmm... did you have any noise prior to the failure?
I have a lug lug noise at idle on the passenger side with a tick that can be heard above the passenger vvt gears on at idle.
I've had zero check engine lights and will be getting the timing replaced. The dealer said timing but couldn't guarantee anything, and the indi said wait until you get a CEL.
My gut tells me it's the vvt and what I read about Ford motors with failing vvt's . From what I've read...There is a tab that sheers off and the spring breaks. When oil pressure builds .. all is good.
I pulled it following the JLR workshop manual once I'd dropped the transmission. Not all steps were brilliantly covered and I pulled extra things first like the supercharger to make it easier on myself, but I got there.
It's very interesting you should mention noise, as I've suspected timing noise for a while but never been able to confirm. Youtube videos recorded with cellphones are really hard to hear/compare, and I think unless you know what these engines are supposed to sound like, it's all subjective and people's descriptions are hard to go by, especially when you read things like "Well, these Direct Injection engines are always a bit noisy" etc.
My current theory is that something has worn (and i'll be reading up on the Ford VVT failures for more info, thanks!) causing metal in the oil, which could wear piston rings and cause oil to blow past and be burned? Worth mentioning I never noticed any smoke/smell that oil was being burned. Interested to note from Mark's thread that oil consumption of these engines is known to be high - maybe this is just a case of good old-fashioned oil starvation, but I find it hard to believe it's burned through that much naturally during one service interval.
There are also a few re-builders in England that may be good for assembly questions, parts or timing chain update info, google "Rebuilding a Jaguar AJ133SC".
Thanks Will, I certainly will keep you posted - I've had lots of help from your posts over the years so I'm hoping I can at least provide a bit of info on all this in return!
If I have to change the VVT units and solenoids/sensors then it may start to make sense (financially at least) to look into swapping to 8.0mm timing gear after all, but I guess that depends on how much needs to be changed. Once I've finished stripping and hopefully have an idea as to what's failed I can decide where to go from there.
Other wild speculation I have seen elsewhere (including some of the LR forums and MB in UK) - these engines have the oil filter as a replaceable cartridge element instead of the whole can.
There has been some suggestion that maintenance problems (besides using cheap *** filters) where the filter was inserted upside down or got itself twisted during the replacement can lead to oil starvation because the flow gets constricted. Whether that would trigger the oil pressure warning in time I know not. I don't think Mark got to check his out as the shop had already pulled it, maybe you might be able to take a closer look at the state of your filter and see if CSI can figure it out ;-)
Sadly I've long since taken the filter out and thrown it in the trash but from memory it was inserted correctly and not twisted, and didn't look mashed up in any way. It was an OEM filter too. Good to cover all bases though.
In any case, my suggestion would be to do your sums on the (total) cost of a rebuild and compare it to sourcing a complete engine from another Jag or Range Rover.
Complete engines come up from time to time, and if you have to pay $10k for a used engine, I think that would be cheaper than a proper rebuild...
Thanks Cambo. I will be doing sums, but isn't a $10k used engine likely to arrive on a pallet with no real verifiable history? Even with a warranty (which is likely to be a few months) from a used engine supplier I'm not sure I'd want to spend the shop time fitting it without replacing (e.g.) timing gear and the like, and at that point I'm not sure how the costs weigh up vs. rebuilding the existing block. That said, I'll definitely be weighing up all options.
Thanks Cambo. I will be doing sums, but isn't a $10k used engine likely to arrive on a pallet with no real verifiable history? Even with a warranty (which is likely to be a few months) from a used engine supplier I'm not sure I'd want to spend the shop time fitting it without replacing (e.g.) timing gear and the like, and at that point I'm not sure how the costs weigh up vs. rebuilding the existing block. That said, I'll definitely be weighing up all options.
The engine history is going to vary wildly depending on the salvage yard you buy it from. Almost all of them will provide a warranty and others will allow you to pay extra for a longer warranty. Typically, they will provide you with compression and oil pressure readings before they pulled the motor. Some may just say the motor ran good (RG = Ran Good or RVG = Ran Very Good in the notes) when it was in the car. Mileage estimates can very quite a bit. I have purchased hundreds of motors from salvage yards and do not trust the mileage they list for the motor. Some yards obviously lie about the mileage to get the motors to sell. I suppose you could get the VIN number of the car and try to trace it back to see if the mileage seems legit. Salvage yard warranties won't typically cover the install/removal labor if the motor goes bad and you go after the salvage yard.
That looks like a very big job. It has been awhile since I have had to replace an engine, but I can tell you if you go the used engine route, verify the mileage/history by running a Carfax on the engines VIN.
I also try to use the vehicles harness, flywheel to avoid and mismatch issues and make sure things like the cam sensors are the same. The last thing you want is trying to figure out why it won't start.
I still don't think I'd be happy fitting a used engine, Carfax or not, unless I replaced all the timing gear, probably oil pump etc as well, and at that point, I can't believe the cost of rebuilding mine would be higher.
Anyway - here's some pictures.
Timing gear removed
Cams Removed
Heads Removed
At this point I still couldn't find any evidence of anything failing. Cylinder walls all look OK, cams look fine minus some very light marks on one of the journals, need to get this checked out but I'm hoping it will be fine to reuse (because otherwise a new head will be required).
Removal of the lower sump showed some bad things:
This was in the oil pickup pipe filter.
Not good.
At this point I'm assuming I've spun a rod bearing or similar, but I packed it up at this point:
Where I left it
When I resume work on it this weekend I'll have the crank and pistons/rods out and I can finally work out what went wrong and how to fix it.
>Removal of the lower sump showed some bad things:
Houston, we have a problem...
Love the pix, hate what you're having to go through, appreciate that you're able to do it.
Is there a machine shop near by with the skills to turn the crank if you spun a bearing. But it would certainly raise the question about why a crank or rod bearing decided to "let go".
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Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car
Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car
Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall, and
Torque is how far you take the wall with you
In the second to last pic (close up of oil pick up filter) there is a tube in the background that looks to me to be the oil extraction tube.
If so, can you check/measure how far from the bottom of the sump pan it ends, as that might help with the never ending oil change debate about "suck or dump".
Love the pix, hate what you're having to go through, appreciate that you're able to do it.
Thank you - I've pretty much come to terms with the fact this has happened and to be honest I'm starting to enjoy the challenge. How long it will be before that quickly disappears I'm not sure! I've had a lot of help over the years from this forum so I'd like to give back what I can. I've been keeping pretty detailed notes and photos so once this is all done I'll upload all of them as it could be a useful resource for anyone needing to do the same - especially with the differences/revisions in crank pulley bolts and timing chains. I've also noticed the official Jaguar workshop manual gets extremely sparse with information once you get to about this point of disassembly there's really no information on going any further so I'm going in a bit blind - at the same time once you get to about this point of disassembly an engine is pretty much just an engine.
Originally Posted by pab
Is there a machine shop near by with the skills to turn the crank if you spun a bearing. But it would certainly raise the question about why a crank or rod bearing decided to "let go".
Yes, plenty of places that can turn the crank, and I have found a supplier for oversized bearings.
As for why the crank or rod bearing let go - if we accept that it's almost certainly not a manufacturing defect with either, then the only real possibility is oil starvation.
The only ways I can conceive of this happening are:
1) The "weep" from the oil seal I had (more specifically, from the vacuum pump oil seal) was more or maybe had been going on much longer than I appreciated, and combine this with stories of this engine's natural oil consumption and the infrequency that I checked the oil level (with the frustratingly temperamental electronic dipstick) and it may have just run so low that a hard acceleration pull ran it down too much. If this is the case, I'm more than happy to hold my hands up and say I've been a complete idiot not keeping a closer eye on my oil level, but at the same time I have been meticulous with oil changes when the car tells me to, and I'd surprised that an engine, even with an apparently very slight leak, can really consume enough oil that it reaches levels perilously close to causing engine damage in ONE service interval
2) A part of the engine, most likely in the timing gear, has failed, broken, and disintegrated in the oil pump, causing metal in the oil which essentially turned it abrasive - it then wears the piston rings, blows past, and burns off. Whilst this is possible, I think it's likely it would have been a pretty gradual process and I'd have surely smelled oil in the exhaust. But maybe not, and there has to have been a reason that Jaguar changed the pitch of the timing and fuel/vacuum pump drive chains from 6.35mm to 8.0mm.
Originally Posted by OzXFR
In the second to last pic (close up of oil pick up filter) there is a tube in the background that looks to me to be the oil extraction tube.
If so, can you check/measure how far from the bottom of the sump pan it ends, as that might help with the never ending oil change debate about "suck or dump".
Sure, I can do that, There's likely to be a bit of tolerance as I probably won't be doing the bolts up etc but I'll certainly get a good idea of the distance. I'm also planning on investigating getting the conrods/pistons - hell, maybe the crank - laser scanned. It can't be that expensive and I can't help but feel it could be very useful if there was a possibility of serious engine work like a stroker kit or forged pistons (the latter I'm already considering at this point).
Last edited by davetibbs; 03-02-2017 at 06:26 PM.
Reason: typo
I agree the description you provided sounds similar to my issue. Jaguar dealer said they sent my motor for inspection to Jaguar - but never closed the loop with me if they ever found out what the real cause was.
I don't think I'd ever have a chance in hell of Jaguar helping me if the car wasn't CPO and I had all service done at Jaguar. Even with that - after an initial formal case review they declined me. It wasn't until I wrote to the CEO, sent him about 25 pictures, and tugged at his heart a little before they opened a new case and helped me out.
They told me to baby it while "breaking it in" for 2,000 miles. So far I am up to 1,500 only as I can't drive it too often in New England in the Winter.
I so hope you're able to make the repair yourself. I am in awe as how far you've already gotten. Calling a tow truck was about as much work as I can do!
02-27-2017, 01:34 PM
5.0 S/C Engine Rebuild
