I've mentioned this situation, a little bit, in a couple of other discussions, in a minor fashion, as I was inquiring about "diminished value" after crash damage. The situation has since gotten more complicated, and I need to vent a little bit.


The introduction....not quite 5 weeks ago, my wife was sitting at a traffic light, and the inattentive jackass who was behind her, didn't realize that the traffic was stopped. He "rear-ended" her, and in turn, shoved her into the car in front of her. Our PRISTINE, never driven in winter, 12,575 mile, 2012 XJ-L suffered damage on both ends, primarily the rear.


Fortunately, she's OK, but I can't say the same for the car. Needless to say, we're heartsick over this. The car was a "retirement present" to ourselves, and we enjoyed it no end, as a "weekend cruiser".


Here's where I get conflicted (and VERY frustrated).....


Our local dealer isn't "Jaguar Certified" in aluminum body repair. In fact, due to a "shake up" in the dealership's ownership, they don't even have their own body shop anymore (long, complicated story). And even though where I live, the Rochester, NY area, isn't exactly the "boondocks", there isn't a Certified repair facility within 100 miles. My local dealer, through their experience, felt that the best place to send my car for repair, was 315 miles away, outside of Boston, MA. I haven't seen the car, in person, in over 3 weeks.


Before sending the car to Boston, my insurance carrier, State Farm, had their appraiser do a repair estimate on the car. Their estimate was just under $19,000. The transport of the car to the shop was $900, and will be another $900 to retrieve it........assuming they fix it. And that's another chapter of this ongoing saga.


The body shop called me two days ago, to discuss the situation, and during the conversation, they mentioned that there seemed to be a problem, there wasn't any labor charge included in the estimate. I couldn't discuss it with certainty, as I was right in the middle of dinner when the call came. I later dug out the State Farm estimate, and it showed 83 hours of labor, billed at $50/hr. I called the shop the next morning, pointing this out, and I was told that their labor rate, for repairing aluminum cars, is $120/hr., and there's NO WAY they're doing it for any less. Therefore, I was warned that the car may wind up being "totaled"!! Naturally, I called State Farm, and had a lengthy discussion with them.......




So here I sit, a wrecked car that's 300 miles away, so if and when issues crop up, I'm at a TOTAL disadvantage, as all I can do is use the phone to try and straighten things out. Secondly, I've NEVER cried "poor mouth" in my life, but over time, my situation has changed. I'm retired now, after close to 40 years as a working man. Yes, I have income, but not as much as I had when I was working full time. I'm no longer in a position to simply "suck it up", take the $40,000 check from the insurance company, if they decide to "total" it, and go to my Jag dealer and write a check for another $40,000, to buy a new one. And even if they fix my current one, will it ever be the same? If, for some reason, it isn't, and I want to get rid of it, I'm still looking at a stiff bill.


This has me thinking....it doesn't appear that my local Jag dealer will ever have the volume of sales and repairs to justify an aluminum repair facility, and from what I've been able to determine, it doesn't appear that any other shops in the area are getting Jag certification, either. Therefore, even though I don't buy a car with the intention of having it crashed, this recent situation has me really thinking. If this ever happened again, what would I have to do, send the car 300 miles to get fixed??


In other words, as much as my wife and I love our Jags, do I want another aluminum bodied car, if they're going to be a huge hassle, if damaged? I've got to think that we're not the only people who have been in this situation......




Believe me, I'm not looking for sympathy, but I am frustrated as all hell!!

 

leadfoot, I can feel your frustration. Based on what you are saying, I am thinking to make your life easier and probably simplify it, I would go the totalled route. I know it may kill you to give up a nice car, you are already seeing some of the pitfalls. But, ultimately, either way you go, you are going to want to question yourself. DON'T. The decision was made and there is no turning back, regardless of which way you decide.

Now, for the next car (should you go this route). Unfortunately, there are more and more cars going with aluminum bodies. So, while there is still a fair number of steel bodies out there now, in the near future you are not going to have that choice. So, this leads to what you are willing to accept as a new vehicle to you. You can potentially get another XF and pocket the difference. The other idea and while it is a bit of work on your part, you can find a good XJ(L?) in the DC area for under $40K (I paid $41K for my 2012 XJ a year ago). While it may have a few more miles than what your car had, you can find a lot of good vehicles in this area.

The third option is to get a completely different manufacturer for your car. There are lots of quality cars out there. I am looking at upgrading the wife's car and am looking at the LIncoln MKZ. Nice car and will be right in the $40K range for a brand new one. Granted, there is always the Jaguar XE. Just saying......

 

leadfoot,

I understand how frustrated you are because I've been there. Try to turn that frustration into determination to get your XJ repaired and get some cash in your pocket from diminished value. It worked for me with my LS460, and it should work for you, too.

I noted that you made the claim through State Farm, your own insurance company. Why didn't you go against the other party who was at fault? If you haven't already done so, you should demand a comparable rental vehicle from the other party's insurance company while your XJ is being repaired. Your State Farm policy may have limits on a rental car. You don't have to settle for a subcompact POS if you go against the other party.

In your previous thread, https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...rience-166352/ you stated:Even though New York is a "no-fault" state, you didn't have to pursue your collision damage claim through your own insurance company, State Farm. No-fault is for personal injury, not property damage. You could have (and I think you still can) gone directly against the other driver's insurance since the accident was the other driver's fault. Keep in mind that all State Farm wants is to close your case as quickly as possible and move on to the next case. Whatever amount State Farm pays out, they will subrogate against the other party's insurance and be reimbursed. They really don't care about getting your car repaired. Assuming your car immediately before the accident had a retail value of $47,000 (see Edmunds.com or KBB.com to estimate that value), there appears to be plenty of room to get it repaired. But if State Farm says they're going to total it, ask why and how they reached that conclusion. Ask for a copy of their calculation and don't agree to a low-ball "total loss" amount. You may want to hire a lawyer in order to maximize your recovery and pursue your claim against the other insurance company. See: Who Pays for the Damage to My Car in NY Car Accidents? NY Accident Attorney Answers this question? | NY Malpractice Attorney | New York Lawyer

As I said in that previous thread: "Although a 2012 model, the extremely low mileage and the fact that it was never driven and kept garaged during the winter months means that your XJ was worth thousands more than the average similarly equipped 2012 XJL immediately before the accident."

Insurance is to make you whole. Don't settle for less. And if your car isn't totaled, don't forget that you have a separate, additional claim for diminished value that you should make against the other party's insurer as soon as repairs are completed. That alone is probably worth anywhere from $5,000 to ... who knows? Re-read my post #3 in that previous thread.

There is light at the end of the tunnel. It just may take a while to get there.

Stuart

 

Guys, thanks for the encouragement. With respect to the points that you've made:


A) I went through my own insurance, because from what I understood, at least in the past, the "driver at fault's" insurance, Allstate, was very difficult to deal with. Secondly, this old guy appears to be a "snowbird", in that he spends some of his summers in the somewhat cooler area where he used to live (Rochester, NY area), but has his permanent address is now in Florida. I felt this might add to the difficulty in getting resolution, but I could be wrong. I've never been in a situation like this, before. Furthermore, although maybe not a fair assessment, this guy looked like he wasn't too well off, and possibly "underinsured", adding to the problem. He was driving a 1997 Oldsmobile Silhouette, with a book value of $995, if that tells anything about him.


B) With respect to getting a replacement vehicle, I have to admit that I'm somewhat of a "pompous ***". Other than a couple of "winter bombs" that I had years ago, I haven't bought a used car since the early 1970s. I've always been extremely meticulous with my cars, especially their break-in and maintenance, while many others aren't. Because of that, I've always questioned purchasing a car that the previous owner may have abused and traded off, BEFORE the effects of their negligence has a chance to show up. Therefore, I've always spent the extra money to buy new, maintain properly, and keep for a fairly long time. But, as I previously said, I was able to enjoy that luxury before I was retired.....


C) In considering another car, should the XJ wind up being totaled, I don't think that either an XE or XF would be a practical replacement. We currently have an XF, a 2009, in the family fleet now, which we really like. The XJ-L was a replacement for a 2001 XJ8 that we had for 11 years, and at the time, my wife felt we should get the longer wheelbase car, for the extra room in the back seat area, hence the XJ-L. The new XF is aluminum, which we're now a little shy of, as well having a second XF just might not make sense, The XE, while a slick car, is even smaller than the XF. If for no other reason, I'm 6'2" tall, and my wife is 5'10", so small cars aren't practical for us.


D) I had to go on some errands yesterday, and I wound up at a Home Depot store, which is about 500 yards down the road from my local Jag dealer. I'm doing my homework on 2012 Jag values, and they've been helping me out, so I stopped in to gather some information. Being car salespeople, they're also offering to sell me another car, of course. What troubles me is this.....our XJ is a NA V-8 engine car, while the newer ones are either supercharged V-6s or supercharged V-8s. We really like the NA V-8. Furthermore, while my sales guy is telling me all about some significant rebates/discounts he can provide, all of the cars they have in stock are AWD. Yes, I realize that in this part of the country, AWD is an advantage, but only if you drive the car in the winter, which we wouldn't be doing.


Again, it's just more of my wife and I getting "screwed over", because some jackass couldn't pay attention to a simple traffic situation, and crashed into her.....


I don't know, at this point it appears that I'll have to be a little more patient, and see how this insurance deal shakes out. The difference in labor rates, the quote on the estimate VS. the shop's posted rate, literally doubles the cost, and then some. It simply KILLS me to think that our pampered car, would wind up being "cannibalized" for parts, to cover the insurance bill......

 

Sorry for your loss. A couple of things about the values that Stat Farm uses. They use NADA for values. So according to what I found based on Webster NY zip and that your XJ had the Bowers and Wilkins system: Clean trade in is $39,975 and clean retail is $43,375, which you are entitled to plus sales tax of 8%. Therefore, IMHO, they should cut you a check for $46845. If you also had the rear entertainment system that would give you a total with tax of $47,628.
As for diminished value you can only claim that if you keep the car and if your snow bird is Florida licensed and Florida tagged then you may be able to get diminished value as Florida is a diminished value state. As for a replacement look to the South and west for a non AWD XJ.

 

deleted - duplicate post

 

Robert,

Are you sure? Even if New York law doesn't allow first-party DV collision coverage against his own insurance, why can't he make a third-party DV liability claim against the other driver's insurance? Does NY law prohibit third-party claims? Any NY lawyers out there?

Stuart

 

Stuart,
You can try anything if leadfoor4 keeps the car, but if it's totaled he is receiving full value for the car as it is appraised as if it were undamaged.

 

Thanks for the info. One thing, however, is that our car doesn't have the B&W system.....


I spoke with the body shop this afternoon, Hollis Auto Body, in Ashland, MA. They told me that a rep from the insurance company is scheduled to be there on Monday morning, I guess to re-evaluate the situation. However, they didn't know if it was a rep from State Farm, my carrier, or Allstate, the "jackasses'" carrier, since they'll ultimately footing the bill. Time will tell.....

 

Leadfoot4, when it comes to insurance companies, I look at it this way: You are paying them good money to be the middle man when you are involved in an accident (your fault or not). Let your insurance company deal with the other guys insurance company. That is part of what you are paying for with your premium. If the other guys insurance company wants to be hard, let them. Your insurance company will make up the difference if they fall short (again, part of your insurance premium that you are paying for). So, make your insurance company do their job.

As for the car that you end up with, you have some decisions to make. Like I mentioned before, pick a path and don't look back. You will question yourself to death. If it helps you feel better, I think you are going to find that most Jaguar owners are going to treat their car pretty good which should minimize the likelihood of getting something that someone has abused. That should allow you to get a quality used XJ and come out about even.

As for the engine choices. Unfortunately, Jaguar is trying to step away from Ford right now. So, with them coming up with the Ingenium engines, they are going to use those as much as possible. So, they are really saving the Ford engines for what they are not making which is the high horsepower versions of their cars. So, this pretty much leaves you with either getting a supercharged V8 and paying top dollar for the car since it will have a lot of the bells and whistles or you are going to get the supercharged V6 which Jaguar has for the most part decided to make most of the cars AWD. I am sure you can find a 2wd version, but they are going to be hard to find as AWD seems to be a desireable item these days. To get a NA V8, you are looking at sticking with a 2012 or earlier car as starting in 2013, the Ingenium engines started rolling out and the NA V8's became harder to find.

 

Robert, I agree - that's what I said:leadfoot4, If your car is totaled, the question is: What was it worth immediately before the accident? The answer is carved in Jell-O because valuation is just one man's opinion and reasonable men can disagree. Appraisals vary, and an insurance company usually will use the valuation service that results in the lowest amount. They'll send you a check in the hope that you will deposit it. But if you do, it's game over and that's all you'll get since "acceptance is in full satisfaction". But if you believe your XJ was, in fact, worth more than the amount of that insurance company check, you should return that check and dispute their valuation. To do so, you will need other qualified appraisals that conclude that your car was worth more than what the insurance company determined.

Note that the 2012 XJ is relatively rare - far fewer were sold than similar class Audis, BMWs, and Mercedes - so the sales database by geographic market is thin and, therefore, unreliable. How many 2012 XJs in upstate NY have less than 15K miles and are never driven in the winter? I'll bet fewer than you can count on one hand. What does it say when the local Jaguar dealer has to send your car 315 miles away to get repaired? My point is because the data is so thin, your car may well be worth far more than your insurance company says as well as what other valuation websites determine. Ask them to buy you one for what they say yours was worth. That'll be good for a laugh.

So, before you receive that check, you should research what your car was worth. To do so, Google "my car was totaled should i accept their offer" for helpful advice. Also, use the online valuation calculators and see how much they vary. You should argue that your car was worth the highest value. Google "value my car" to find those websites.

Good luck, and hopefully things will work out to your satisfaction.

Stuart

 

Again, guys, thanks for the info. I'll have a better idea of what to do, come Monday.


Just for grins, in case a pile of money comes my way really soon (NY Lottery win??), and my car winds up being totaled, I was searching the dealer websites in the NY/NJ area, and not one black, RWD, XJ-L shows up. Of course, a lottery win would change the entire picture, as I'd simply order a 2017 model, in the configuration I'd prefer.

 

It is my understanding that an insurance company will pay op to 70% of the vehicles book value for repairs, before totaling the car. So in your case based on their 40k value the repairs could be a s high as 28k. So if the re inspection yields as cost within the range then they probably will repair. If totaled. I'd go to my dealer and order the exact XJ I want. I know I did that in early 2012 and it took so long to build it as I had ordered the Speed Package they allowed me to roll the order over to a 2013 SuperSport and that was delivered to me in October of 2012. I was glad that I was able to do that as I got all the upgrades that were made for 2013. Hope all your wishes and dreams come true for your future with an XJ.

 

Excellent idea..............except for one thing. I'd need to come up with $40K, to cover the cost of upgrading!!


In reality, that's somewhat similar to what happened when we bought this 2012. I was in the dealership setting up an appointment to get the sunroof worked on, on our '09 XF. In setting up the appointment, I happened to mention that I needed to set it up so my wife could meet me at the dealership, and drive me home. The sales manager, a long time friend, jumped into the conversation, and said he'd give me a "loaner", so don't worry about it.


Two days later, when I dropped our XF off, my loaner was a BRAND NEW, 2011 XJ-L, in black (my favorite color), with a London Tan interior. Long story short, we were VERY impressed with the car, and began to contemplate trading in our '01 XJ8. (I think there was a plot here....) My buddy was anticipating some rebates on the '11s, as this was very near the end of the model year, so he broached the subject of us buying this car, but alas, A) the rebates didn't happen; and B) somebody else bought the car, even though my buddy was trying to "hide" it.


Anyway, we didn't put a deal together on the '11, but a few weeks later, I got a call, and he said that if they were able to move a few more cars before the end of the year, the dealership could cash in on some corporate incentives, So, would we be interested in a '12? Long story short, although they didn't have exactly what we wanted, in stock, they had a couple of yet to be built '12s in their allotment for that last quarter of '11, and one of them could be configured exactly the way we wanted it, so that was what we did. The car came in a couple of days before the end of the year, and although we had seen some snow in the week before the car showed up, it had melted, and the roads were dry. At the time, the dealership was still in their old location, 4 miles from our house, so we quickly scooted it home, and stashed it in the garage, until the end of winter.




And now it's crashed.......








My dealer already has offered to "work with me" in terms of Corporate Rebates, and some significant discounts, in order to get us into a new, 2016. The problem, as I mentioned, is finding $40K, to make the "trade up", since I'm now retired. Secondly, a lot of their "flexibility" revolves around their current inventory. Since we wouldn't be driving this car in the winter, I'm really not interested in a AWD version, for several reasons....the added cost, the added complexity, and the added weight. My dealer, however, only has AWDs in stock. I spent about an hour, yesterday, "shopping" on the internet, in case we get "totaled". I searched about 15 Jag dealer's inventories, and found only two RWDers, they were in Virginia (4-500 miles away), and although they were Ultimate Black, they had black interiors, rather than the London Tan we'd prefer. But that might be getting the cart before the horse.......

 

Check out Hennessy Jaguar | New Jaguar dealership in Atlanta, GA 30305 and if you call ask for Robert Loyd and mention my name Robert Hirsch @ (877) 380-4524
. He has been there forever and will cut you a proper deal. It looked like they had 2 or 3 XJs you might like in your color combo.

 

leadfoot4, while I am not pushing a new car on you, but you can always find a dealership that has the car that you are after and then have them ship it up to New York for you. Sure, there will be say a $900 shipping charge for this, but then you get exactly what you are after and in a lot of cases, the dealership will work with you on the price as the work for them is minimal and it helps out their numbers. It may **** off your local dealership some, but they are capable of doing this same thing if they cared to take care of their customers.

 

leadfoot4,
Your local dealer should be able to work out a dealer exchange to get you the car you want; it's a common practice in most dealerships and I see no reason why a Jaguar dealership should be any different. If you settle for something other than what you truly want, you'll never be satisfied. I've learned this from personal experience!
Dwayne

 

If it comes down to our 2012 getting "totaled", or we're simply unhappy with the car, after the repairs, my local dealer has already offered to do whatever they can, to help us out. Yes, they would prefer to sell us something they already have in their inventory, but they also said that they'd have something shipped in, if necessary. They did a "dealer trade" in 2009, to get us the XF that we currently have. The difference there, was that the XF was a lot closer, geographically, than any of the XJs I've come across, searching dealer's websites.


Thanks, "XJsss", for the link to the Hennessey Jaguar website. They have 2 cars in stock, that we could get "very comfortable" with. The only downside, is the cars are about 1000 miles away. Shipping could get a little pricey, first of all, and the other glitch is that I don't yet have any resolution with my current car, so those two could be gone, by the time I might be looking for a replacement.




With respect to my local dealer, I wouldn't want to upset them by going behind their backs, and buying a replacement car directly from another dealer. In all honesty, over the 15 years I've been dealing with Piehler Jaguar, they have treated my like a member of the family, and I mean that in a good way. Most dealerships, over the years, have become sterile and impersonal. With Piehler's dealership, I know everybody on a first name basis, and can still walk through the shop and speak directly with all of the techs, when I'm in there for service. Recently, I needed a part for a repair I was doing on my own, and all I had to do was make a phone call. They didn't have the part on hand, but they ordered it in, no question, and I had it the next day. You can't put a price on that kind of treatment.


Most shops today, make you plunk your azz down in the waiting room, and they'll call you when the car is done. You feel like nothing more than a number. I don't feel comfortable doing business like that, and that's not the way it's been for me at Piehler's.

 

I'm glad to know I'm not the only person who is completely satisfied with my dealership! I read all the horror stories about dealers and just shake my head in disbelief! We bought our first Jaguar new in 2004 from Brown's Jaguar in Richmond, VA. The treatment we received and the service they provided over the life of that car were amazing. I didn't even think of going anywhere else when we decided we wanted an XJL. I can assure you that, whenever the time comes, and for whatever reason, our next Jaguar will be a Brown's Jaguar also!

Dwayne

 

Well, the bad news appears to be on the horizon. I haven't got an official word from State Farm's claims office yet, but I received an updated repair estimate via e-mail, a short time ago. If I understand it correctly, the damaged parts, and labor to make the repairs, appear to have doubled. While there were some additional parts added to the rear of the car, such as the fuse box and battery, as well as replacing the deck lid, rather than repairing it, I also see where some significant parts were damaged in front, the air compressor and air tank, for the rear air springs, to name a few.


After reviewing that document, I contacted the body shop, and while I didn't speak with the shop manager, I did speak to the woman who is the office manager, and she said she's pretty sure she heard the manager and insurance adjuster talking in terms of a "total"......