During the day I normally drive with running lights AND fog lights. At night, low beams and fogs and high beams when appropriate.

During last year or so, low beams would cut on/off for about 2-3 seconds.
Checked relay, works ok on test bench.

Now fogs will cut off, low beams will cut off, then lows come back on. Coming home this afternoon, the low beams flickered (icon on instrument cluster flashed on/off) even though fogs were off. What's going on here? Note that all bulbs are halogen, so no HID issues.

I have not yet tested all the relays to all the lights, but this almost sounds like a grounding issue somewhere between the under hood fuse panel and the affected lights. I have read about the stalk issues with HIDs; I hope, really hope, that is not the case here.

Suggestions appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

Hi rsa760041,

Welcome to the Jaguar Forums! It's great to have you with us.

It will help other members give you accurate replies if you will add your car's year, model and engine information to your signature line. To do so, hover your cursor over your username in the upper right corner of this page (lower right corner of the dark blue top banner).

In the dropdown menu, click the first option, "User CP."

In your Control Panel, find Edit Signature in the left column of options.

The forum Search and Advanced Search functions will help you find information on flickering lights, and sometimes google searches that point back to Jaguar Forums will find additional hits.

If your car is an X350, the first thing I would suspect would be corrosion on the ground studs behind the headlamps, which is where the headlamps are grounded/earthed, and probably the fog lamps also. Remove the nuts, clean the threaded studs, wire ring/eyelet terminals and nuts with a soft brass brush and zero-residue electrical contact cleaner, allow to dry, then reassemble. Note that the torque specification is a very low 6.5 ft. lbs., which is barely more than hand tight. Several members have snapped a threaded stud off of the body by overtightening the nut. The photos in this post may be helpful:

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...2/#post1156791


Since we're a friendly group, please visit the New Member Area - Intro a MUST - Jaguar Forums - Jaguar Enthusiasts Forum and post an introduction so we can learn something about you and your Jag and give you a proper welcome.

Cheers,

Don

 

The ground/negative earth is the only common part of the circuits in as much each light system is fused and relayed separately. I'll get on it tomorrow. Thanks.

 

Note that all of the parts involved are aluminum alloy - the threaded stud, the nut, any washers, and the wire ring/eyelet terminals - so the corrosion isn't red rust as on steel or iron parts. It's usually a thin white powdery coating that introduces just enough resistance/insulation to foul up the proper performance of the circuits.

 

Not on my car,see wiring diagram p48 of X350 Electrical Guide. Each headlight is grounded separately and the two fog lights are grounded together but separate from the headlights. It is possible all three ground points are defective.


The Front Electronic Control Unit is common to headlamps and fog lamps.

 

Were your dipped beams on at the same time as your running lights? Reason I ask is that I have to have dipped beam on to get my fog lights on and I want to have them on without having dipped beam on.

You could run a separate ground wire to a light to see if it works and that would confirm the bad ground connection.

 

Sorry for the misunderstanding...I was implying that while the front lighting systems all have separate hot (+) leads from the fuse box, ground (-) is ground at all (3) aluminum studs heli-arced to the aluminum chassis. I should be able to put an OHM meter on a ground stud up front and with a long enough wire from my meter see .000 OHMs at the (-) terminal of the battery. Hence the term 'common' side of the separate circuits originating at the fuse boxes. Thanks for your comment.

 

Success...for 20 miles. I used Deoxit 5 (a cleaner and lube I use for guitar and amplifier pots), brushed the ground post and ground wire terminals well with brass brush, then flushed the Deoxit from all parts using CDC contact cleaner. The Deoxit dissolves all types of gunk on electronic parts. Anyway, did a 20 mile test drive: 10 miles with running lights and fogs then 10 miles with lows and fogs. Not one flicker of the lights/fogs icons on the cluster until I got 200 FEET from my street.

So, since I am retired and have more time to tinker, I'm going to flip the front fuse panel and look for signs of problems on the bottom of the panel. I really do not want to follow the wiring harness for both (+) and (-) to the lows and fogs. But time is on my side. Good title for a song. Oh...I have a couple of tricks for getting the nut back on the lower RH stud. I used Gorilla tape on the back of my 13mm GearWrench to secure the nut and used a 12" pair of needle nose pliers to hold the nut while I ratcheted the nut on the stud. I think poster putty would do the same thing. Anyway, I'm closing in on this and will try ideas posted and whatever Mr. Johnnie Walker inspires.

 

Hi, Don. Cleaned up the grounds as you suggested (great pics by the way) and all went well for about 20 miles, then fogs went off. Then low beams flickered on/off. Hmmm. However, I noticed that the problem seemed to be occurring when I had on turn signals and making random turns. Then tested in the garage with turn signals and simulating turns left and right.
And The fogs/low beams flickered and lows stayed off for 4-5 seconds. Not a good thing at 60 MPH.

So it appears I will have to diagnose the turnstalk and either repair or replace that darn thing. You have any advice before I tackle this? Thanks for your previous advice.

Randy
--

 

Hi Randy,

I've been working on a reply for the past 20 minutes and was all set to have you check to be sure the DeoxIT had not reacted with your aluminum alloy parts (I'll leave my work-in-progress for future readers), but it now seems like you found a new and helpful clue. I don't know if you've found the 2004 X350 Electrical Guide, but if not, you can download it here:

http://www.jagrepair.com/images/Elec...al%20Guide.pdf

We'll have to have a look at the schematics to see if your new clue helps narrow down the cause of the malfunction. I think the turn signal clue should really help you solve this one!!!


What I was going to say before:

I doubt this is an issue since you flushed the DeoxIT with CDC contact cleaner, but I'm very familiar with DeoxIT D5, and it contains difuoroethane, which, according to its Hazardous Substance Fact Sheet, is not compatible with powdered aluminum or magnesium and their alloys, which could indicate that it is not the best choice for cleaning aluminum contacts (Caig Labs no doubt expects it to be used mostly on gold, silver and nickel-plated connectors).

I doubt it's an issue, but it might be at least worth examining the easiest-to-access ground stud and wire terminals for any signs that the DeoxIT may have reacted with the alloy parts.

For the record, difuoroethane is also not compatible with brass or steel.... Here's the HSFS:

http://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/0715.pdf


Cheers,

Don

 

I thought my model year ...2004...and series...XJ8 were in my signature. Anyway interesting info re: Deoxit 5. Pots in most guitars have a copper wiper and some kind of ferrous material composing the case. Anyway, the CDC removed all the Deoxit and the grounds are solid.

But my problem appears to be in the turnstalk. 2004, XJ8. I have read it is a hassle to get into the steering column but any adivce you can provide will be most valuable. Thanks.

Randy
--

 

Hi Randy,

Sorry, I forgot that while in Editing mode other members' signatures are not visible, so I couldn't see your car info. You're good!

What is prompting you to conclude the issue is in the turnstalk switch? Have other members solved the same issue by replacing the turnstalk? The fog lamp circuits don't go through that switch, do they?

Glancing at the schematic, all the circuits involved go through the Front Power Distribution Fuse Box and the Front Electronic Module. It also seems as though a short in the wiring harness somewhere could cause the kind of symptoms you are having.

Don

 

Hi, Don. Here's my plan:

• drive with low beams only today to see if I have a on/off flicker without the fogs being on. Running lights are also on when lows are on, correct? Going to give the 'bug' ample time show itself sans foglights.

• Tomorrow, run half day with running lights and fogs and keep an eye on the gauge cluster for fog light indicator to go off and running light indicator to flicker.

• Am toying with the idea of removing the relay for the fogs to see if the problem is downstream of the fuse block. But adding another variable at this point will make my head hurt.

As to other reporting oddities that were turnstalk related...from 2013:


"Hi all,

I'm experiencing a few issues relating to my headlights/indicator stalk.

When the headlights are on, indicating left or right causes the centre console lights and (more worryingly) the tail lights to go out. I only realised the second part of this the other day.

It's all a bit temperamental but pressing the computer cycle switch on the end of the stalk can also cause similar problems. To get the lights back on, indicating left and then returning it to normal brings everything back, usually.

I've read a few related posts and it seems that this sort of problem can be caused by a knackered battery, but I don't think that's causing it. I tried connecting it to another car with jump leads and again testing all of this with a very good level of charge and the problems were still occurring.

So now I think it's a faulty connection on the indicator stalk which some people have also mentioned. Does anyone have any tips or ideas as to how I can check the connections or remove the indicator stalk altogether?

Thanks,

Jack

---

'Jack' (Ajax, Cumbria, UK) removed the air bag, etc . to find buggered wiring. So before I even remotely consider attempting that, I need to make sure I am looking at one common problem or two separate issues.


I used to install and engineer telecommunication systems, point to point for long distance, and very often I would fix one only to find that another was intermittent and alos causing alarms. I'll try to sectionalize and isolate my on/off problem as above and get back to you. Thanks.


Randy
--

 

Hi, Don. Any way I can send you a voice recording I made while testing the low/fogs/turn signal issues. While stationary in the garage I did some combination of running lights/turn signals and low beams flashed on for 2-3 seconds. Other combination of lows and turn signals turned the lows OFF when the turn signals clicked off as steering wheel was returned to center. This happens primarily when I have RH turn signal on. It would appear that fogs going off is somehow related to a stalk problem associated with Turn signals/running lights and perhaps lows. FWIW, I thought I heard a slight sparking sound behind the steering wheel (1 second or less) but it happened only once. I get the feeling a stalk bug or connector bug behind the steering wheel is the area to look. I'll look through the diagrams you so kindly sent but would appreciate your advice and guidance. Have you ever disarmed an air bag? Geeeez.

 

Hi Randy,

Check your private messages.

When I took a brief glance at the Exterior Lighting schematic last night, I didn't see any connection between the turnstalk switches and the fog lamps, but I may have missed something. There may be a confluence of those circuits somewhere in the steering column or dash. I think I recall some members having trouble with the clockspring also, so that might be worth researching.

I'll look forward to hearing the recording.

Cheers,

Don

 

Well,ran some short errands with running lights only and sure enough the lighted icon on the cluster flickered before I could get out of my street. But more telling is the fact that 90% of the time I used the RH blinker the running lights would flick on/off. I, too, did not see the fogs running through the stalk but am beginning the running lights which are on when the lows are on might be the root cause. I'll send my voice notes (I hope) to your email. thanks...Randy

 

Hi Randy,

I listened to your voice recording and took notes. Very strange behavior, but if I understand correctly, it appears that you have isolated the problem to the use of the turn signals, mostly the right one, but at least once during your tests it was the left one. The low beams may come on, the fog lamps may flash off. Also, at least once the low beams came on by themselves with no turnstalk movement. The misbehavior is intermittent.

The schematics don't show any direct connection between the turnstalk and the fog lamps, which makes me suspect the problem is elsewhere. Remember that the turnstalk switches do not actually control the lamp circuits. They switch low-power control circuits in the Instrument Cluster (IC), which then controls low-power control circuits in the Front Electronic Module (FEM), which then controls the fog lamps directly, but the headlamps and turn signals via the Front Power Distribution Fuse Box (FPDFB).

Since the turnstalk switches and fog lamp switches all connect to the IC, this could suggest a problem with the wiring harnesses that connect to the IC or an internal issue in the IC.

Looking at the other end of the schematic, the main beam, dip beam and front fog lamp relays are all in the FPDFB, but the fog lamps have no circuits there.

But all those relays plus the fog lamps communicate with the FEM, which is mounted near the driver's side A-pillar behind the left scuttle or kick panel trim. Six ground wires from the FEM are grounded in three pairs at the G9 ground stud on the upper LH A-pillar.

So, based on that very brief analysis, I'm wondering if your list of suspects is:

1. A short or other problem in the wiring harnesses, connectors or grounds associated with the FEM or IC

2. An internal problem with the FEM, or

3. an internal problem with the IC.

It's certainly possible that the problem is in the turnstalk switches, but I can't see an obvious connection between the switch and the fog lamps.

In reviewing your thread, I don't see that you've had the car scanned for any stored Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTCs). The kind of issues you're having would likely trigger DTCs that were not the standard P (Powertrain) codes, but rather B (Body), C (Chassis) or U (Undefined, mostly network-related) codes. These DTCs are proprietary to Jaguar and can only be read with a dealer-level system or a third-party system capable of reading them. Most OBDII scanners can only read the generic P codes.

Knowing if any DTCs are stored might be very helpful in your diagnosis.

Cheers,

Don

 

Don...I have contacted a local repair shop that specializes in European cars. They think that their computer diagnostic system will read the B, C and U codes you mention. Further, there is a Jaguar dealer in Roanoke, VA but is about an hour away. However the technician who was on the call with the local service manager has good relationships with factory certified Jaguar techs and feel confident he can isolate the problem. Thanks for your feedback and guidance. I am to take the XJ8 to the local shop on Friday morning for the diagnostics and will keep you apprised.

Best,

Randy
--

 

Randy,

I almost asked this question in my previous post but didn't want to sound like a jerk, but it really is relevant: Have you confirmed that the actual headlamps and fog lamps are flickering, extinguishing or coming on unexpectedly, or is it only the indicator lamps on the Instrument Cluster that are misbehaving?

No offense intended - I've just learned the hard way what happens when we assume....

Cheers,

Don

 

Hi, Don. No offense taken. I have made assumptions only to have them prove me to be chasing my tail. Answer: yes. On the road, at night just last week wife and I went into total darkness on a serpentine country road. I flashed on the high beams to get us to our home's road. then went back to lows. They came on but the fogs did not as I did not switch them on.

When I did the recording While in my garage, I had the XJ grille parked about 3.5 feet from a wall. I could easily see the lows cut on/off after the turn signal tests. And during a test with lows/fogs, the lows went off...back on...the fogs icon went off, stayed off and I took a look at the front end. Lows on, fogs off. I take pride in the fact I can genterally fix most anything given the time and required tools (parts as needed), but your suggestion to have the codes read by a pro tech is the way to go. Now...if the tech tells me the FEM is the culprit, I can pay him for his time and do that myself. I think. But turnstalk or in the IC...I have done that before with a Jeep, Grand Caravan, Ford ZX-8 and a Kia but am not sure I would tackle the XJ8. But, again, overlooking the obvious is something I am too familiar with. (ha).

Best,

Randy