Hello, I've done a search and learned a bit, and what I've learned here has got me confused - here's my problem:

My dad picked up a pristine 1989 ABS XJ-S - everything worked but the e-brake - even the supposed dealership-installed radar detector.

The plan was to use it as a daily driver. It was going great when I noticed the brake pedal was a bit mushy. I was out one day and noticed it was a bit mush, but I figured it was just the usual easy to fix problem.

The brakes got progressively worse until one day it would barely stop the car. I parked it, and took the car to a local Jag garage.

What he said surprised me: Someone had put American brake fluid in and it had eaten all of the brake system. I would need to replace every single item on the car's brakes, including dropping the rear end to change the brakes there.


Now, looking on this forum it appears there is no distinction between American and other brake fluid on this year car. The only distinction is some mineral in the fluid if I'm correct? Or DOT 5?

Is this guy blowing smoke? Will I just need to bleed the system and I'd be alright?

We got this car for $3,500 and I plan on buying my father out of this car and use it as a daily driver until my wrecked Chevelle can be my daily.

Help me jaguarforums, you're my only hope.

 

DOT4 is what is supposed to be in the system. I think it even says it on the ABS pot...

 

If the entire system has been 'eaten up' I suspect something other than brake fluid was introduced into the system. Over the years I've seen a few cars that had power steering fluid accidentally poured into the brake system....which did indeed 'eat everything up'.

DOT 3, 4, and 5.1 fluids have the same basic chemical base so, while there are obviously differences between them, I don't think using the wrong one would cause *actual damage* to the braking system.

I'm a little concerned about the "American brake fluid" remark. Not confidence inspiring....but the diagnosis might still be correct. And, at any rate, it isn't unusual for an old XJS to need a full brake overhaul. A second opinion wouldn't be a bad idea but would mean paying a tow bill to another shop.....possibly worth paying? I dunno, that's for you to decide.

The ABS on your '89 is a little quirky so, whatever work you decide to do, and wherever you take it, ask outright if they are familiar with the system. Is there a Jag specialist in your neck of the woods?

Cheers
DD

 

Hi Sticks

Is it too late to take the Car back for a refund as being unsafe, or at the very minimum have them fix the Brakes for Free.

As I have a feeling that this could end up costing you as much as you paid for the Car.

 

I can virtually promise that the car was sold 'as-is'. Generally, unless deliberate misrepresentation can be proven, the buyer is on his own. Not quite that simple....but almost.




Sadly, yes....it's possible

"There's nothing more expensive than an inexpensive Jaguar"


Cheers
DD

 

If they put the wrong Brake Fluid in (even power steering fluid) then I would think there's a possible chance, that they might be persuaded to repair it.

 

Reminds me of when in my younger days and working in a service station. A woman came in with a Volkswagon with a low tire. I filled the tire with "American" air but told her she would need to come back later to get metric air since we were all out at the moment. Later that day her husband came in and read me the riot act. Guess he didn't appreciate my humor.
Point is, even if the wrong DOT fluid is installed it is unlikely that everything is ate up. If everything is "ate up" then fluid should be leaking out the calipers and brake cylinders. This should be evident looking under the car and by fluid level falling in the reservoir. If no leaks are evident then the master cylinder seals may be damaged. Get a list of specific items that show leaking or damage. Then you can get a reasonable estimate for repair. Include full fluid replacement.
American Dot 4 is ok, no metric fluid is required.

 

Yup, Doug is on to it. In almost all USA jurisdictions, used car sales are "As is". And, most if not all dealer sales of used cars are adorned with "As is" declarations.


Caveat Emptor reigns.


Only a flat out fraud can lead to a recission of the sale.


Blowing some is it!!! As I recall, an old wives tale insisted that Brit cars must use Girling BF and that using "American, Wagener or whatever BF was fatal. As, I recall, that myth was busted decades ago. Tis chemistry not national origin that governs.


But, oh yeah, oil in the hydraulics is trouble....


Carl

 

If it is otherwise "pristine 1989 ABS XJ-S" at $3.5K - even with "eaten" brakes it still sounds like a good deal.

I would take a close look at what is actually "eaten". One would have to put acid by mistake into break lines to have them completely destroyed. I suspect you simply have a leak somewhere.

 

There might've....** might've **....been something to that decades ago, perhaps 1950s and earlier? I'm not at all sure. But I do recall hearing that wayyyy back in the day there really *was* something unique about the rubber used in British car brake systems that mandated use of Girling fluid.



Everything gets all soft and gooey ! Great for chocolate chip cookies but not for brakes ;0


Cheers
DD

 

Having had time to think about this, I would first get a Second Opinion and would want to be shown where the Rubber or Seals have supposedly melted away.

There is also an outside chance that the Rear Brakes had been Bled the Conventional way, as some Shops are just not aware of the fact that there is a 'Special

Procedure' required when you Bleed them.

 

Much like wiring issues perpetuating from cloth insulted negative earth cars in england, there is a braking system fluid incompatibility issue that persists with many ignorant people. This was way back when mineral fluid was still being used, but that was decades before the XJS.

Some people even think that GT LMA is some special british brake fluid, but its not. Your car is decades old, and the seals have rotted. This is 100% normal and has nothing to do with the type of fluid used. Don't put DOT5 in an ABS car, dot3 or 4 is fine.

 

"Castrol" and "Jaguar" seem to naturally go hand-in-hand. Just one of those things. Sentimental value I guess.

Cheers
DD

 

If the mechanic wasn't familiar with Jags he could have heard of older Rolls Royces, which *do* require a special fluid - RR363. Maybe he assumed all British cars need the special fluid?

Didn't XJ40's need hydraulic mineral oil, rather than conventional brake fluid?

 

Thank you gentlemen. I will check the car out with my brother and see if we can't see if the car has brake fluid and if it needs to be bled or if it's leaking.

I don't know why we didn't check the brakes ourselves first, I mean, my brother's a mechanic. I guess the engine bay is just that intimidating.

I see there's the special way to bleed the rears as mentioned by OrangeBlossom, as in This thread, so I'm glad I waited to ask you fellas so I don't burn anything up.

Now I just need to see about the smoke that started since she's sat. If I need a new engine, I've got a Chrysler 440 coming that I was thinking of putting in the Chevelle. I'd hate to change the character of the Jaguar, especially before I've fully enjoyed it as-is, but I need wheels once my lease is up and I really like this car. There's something special about the XJ-S, from it's in-car hood latch to the aircraft-like gauges to it being the only XJ-S I've ever seen on the road here.

You have been more than helpful and I look forward to years of learning more about this car (and I do have Kirby Palm's 700 page Jaguar book on my laptop).

-Sticks

 

Hi Sticks

Before PTJS (Paul) showed me the Correct Procedure for Bleeding the Rear Brakes, I myself Screwed up on this by Bleeding them in the Conventional way.

The result was that I did have Brakes of 'Sorts' but the Pedal was a bit 'Mushy' so I Bled them for a Second Time again in the Conventional 'Wrong Way!'

Although they were better the Second Time! they still didn't feel quite right.

But when Paul showed me what to do and where I had gone wrong, after that I had a Rock Hard Pedal.

Shops who may never have worked on an XJS can very easily jump to the wrong conclusion about what is wrong with your Brakes.

So providing the Seals are not leaking on the Calipers or anywhere else for that matter, then Bleeding them the right way maybe all you need to do and then

replace the Fluid with Dot4.

 

I liked somedays Alien bay and Borg bay a lot but I think, for most mechanics, it's more like pulling the pub door open to find two drunken rugby teams talking politics.

 

I *think* the mineral oil was for the hydro-assist system....which was all-in-one with the brake assist, steering assist, and self-leveling suspension all operating off the same system? The actual brake hydraulics used brake fluid....didn't they? I dunno.


Haven't owned an XJ40......yet. Maybe it's time?

Cheers
DD

 

This might be too easy to be valid.


With a piece of tubing, draw off just a tad of whatever fluid is in the brake reservoir.
Pipette is the word I was looking for. A big milk shale straw would work, I think. Yum,
getting the tool!!!


Apply it to a painted surface that you don't mind screwing up. BF will cause it to bubble up. Just oil will merely slid off harmlessly.


Any color might be a clue. Or even a sniff test. Sniff some known BF and then some motor oil, ATF or PS resemblances??


I doubt if you have anything but BF. Most auto techs are not dumb, by far...


Carl