I understand Jon89's position since probably 99% of the automotive owners in the world (100% in Cuba) feel exactly the same way. That said I'm also eternally grateful to that small but vitally important segment of the world who are gear heads, art heads, book worms, etc., who have done so much to preserve for the rest of us the centuries of classics in each of the disciplines. If it weren't for their focused passion for the things they love and which for them have a value that transcends the dollar value others might place on it we'd not have museums, libraries, and public and personal collections all over the world that the rest of us can visit and be reminded of the great talents, and artistic and engineering geniuses that have made the world a better place for all of us..

Having been a lifelong 'motor head" and inveterate tinkerer in all things mechanical I've tried (mostly unsuccessfully) to do my tiny little bit. Yes, my main concern is keeping my vehicles safe and reliable not just for my wife and myself but for anyone else who might on occasion drive one of them. Yet I don't draw the line there. Some people put great effort into the way they dress, or otherwise groom themselves so as to make what they feel is a passable public appearance, others dress as if there clothes were dumped on them from a passing airplane. My vehicles are just such an expression of my personality and desire to enhance where possible the original product.

Having attended all sorts of car shows over the decades from the always happening local car club gatherings at the local drive-in Steak-n-Shake to the fluted Champaign glasses and high tea shows like Amelia Island I can assure you that only rarely does a restoration follow the original design and manufacturing laid down by the builder. I've seen cars whose remaining numbers are in single digits that NEVER looked as good or well put together as they do now even when they were fresh out of the factory door. Others whose provenance requires a certain patina and originality are of course just as highly sought after and valued for their rarity and there are more than enough buyers for both types available to keep the value of both generally increasing over time. It is primarily those who are in it for what they perceive to be a 'fast buck' who find themselves staring down the south end of a north bound skunk when they jump into an expensive arena without any real understanding.

Since our "modern" Jags are not yet and probably never will be the kind of cars that command millions of dollars, or even multi-hundreds of thousands we have a more latitude in doing what we individually want with them. As long as what we do is reversible for little to no real expenses and it is done in good taste there is no reason to think that what we do will cause the cars to become any less valuable than it was before.


It's also axiomatic that the first person to 'restore' a car is the one who takes it the worst in his or her wallet since the cost, if done by professionals, is initially greater than the new value. Once done however the value will continue to increase and that expense will become evermore a smaller and smaller sacrifice when compared to the increasing value. Such collectors and restorers are looking to the future value and their desire to keep a part of their lives they are passionate about available for the next generation.

It's probably true that Phil won't get ALL his invested money back but it's also true that to the right type of buyer, obviously not Jon89, he also won't get hit for having modified his car tastefully, expertly, and in line with what it would appear a great number of members of this very forum would like to do their cars if they had the time and money to do so. Had Jon89 thought beyond his own view of things he would have been less cavalier about making jokes about Phil's efforts or his legitimate initial query.

 

I don't know Jon or what was really in his mind when he posted what I took as some attempted humor about where to list the car sale. I do know that some people, like myself, have "strange" senses of humor that are not understood by many people. I have posted what I thought were humorous statements in this forum that were misunderstood...like one about stetson doing a lot of work to disassemble the entire front end of a car to install the mesh grill. It didn't cause offense, but the "humor" was lost. I also apparently misunderstood a post directed at me in another thread which ended up being closed by a mod. So let's try to keep each other a bit cooler when possible instead of fanning any flames.

 

RD, thank you for your post. I think you actually get that I'm aware my modifications aren't for every buyer but there is a large group of people that do want a unique car. And you also seem to understand that our cars aren't so rare or valuable therefor they can be made unique without destroying the inherent beauty. And also, thank you for referring back to my initial question. I wasn't implying that I expect to recoup my expense, only that I wondered what the value could be to a like minded buyer.
And Jon, I too, apologize if I took your comments too hard. The first comment wasn't the issue it was more the second that offended me. But, all is well now that you clarified your reasons for them.
Now a question for you Jon. After your explanation on your economic background and view of owning an automobile, why Jaguars? I'm truely fascinated by your mindset.
I've met, and made friends with jag owners from all walks of life and I can honestly say every one has been passionate about their love for Jaguar. Emotional if you prefer. You seem rather immune from this one underlying commonality in the Jaguar community. PLEASE know I'm not being insulting with this observation. Just intregued.
And the other thing that truely escapes me is if you are economically focused, again, WHY a Jaguar. Many things can be said about a Jaguar but economical isn't one, on the best of days!! from mpg to maintainence to parts!
Again, truely no animosity intended in these questions but I'd love to understand why you own Jaguars as they really seem to be the antithesis of your background in economics, and self admitted non-emotional attachment or pride in the brand.
And if your should come to any event in NC, I owe you a drink! (But I still want to put our cars side by side just for the heck of it!! Lol)


RD, thank you for your post. I think you actually get that I'm aware my modifications aren't for every buyer but there is a large group of people that do want a unique car.

And you also seem to understand that our cars aren't so rare or valuable therefor they can be made unique without destroying the inherent beauty. And also, thank you for referring back to my initial question.

I wasn't implying that I expect to recoup my expense, only that I wondered what the value could be to a like minded buyer.

And Jon, I too, apologize if I took your comments too hard. The first comment wasn't the issue it was more the second that offended me. But, all is well now that you clarified your reasons for them.

Now a question for you Jon. After your explanation on your economic background and view of owning an automobile, why Jaguars? I'm truely fascinated by your mindset.

I've met, and made friends with jag owners from all walks of life and I can honestly say every one has been passionate about their love for Jaguar. Emotional if you prefer.

You seem rather immune from this one underlying commonality in the Jaguar community. PLEASE know I'm not being insulting with this observation. Just intregued.

And the other thing that truely escapes me is if you are economically focused, again, WHY a Jaguar. Many things can be said about a Jaguar but economical isn't one, on the best of days!! from mpg to maintainence to parts!

Again, truely no animosity intended in these questions but I'd love to understand why you own Jaguars as they really seem to be the antithesis of your background in economics, and self admitted non-emotional attachment or pride in the brand.

And if your should come to any event in NC, I owe you a drink! (But I still want to put our cars side by side just for the heck of it!! Lol)

 

Modifications polarise opinion - always have, always will.

What surprises me is the number who put huge time, effort and money in modifying their car ........ and then sell.

It's not a criticism, I just fail to understand why. It must be the modification process has to give more personal reward and pleasure than the final result .......?????

Graham

 

Phil,

Fair questions, all. I'll do my best to satisfy your curiosity....

Just because I have a Masters Degree in Economics and am an investor and a saver does not mean that I cannot spend money on nice things.

I've had some very nice vehicles since the mid-70s. Through the 80s we typically owned four or five vehicles at any given time depending upon our different needs and desires until I grew sick of spending so much time maintaining them.

I decided to simplify my life and gradually cut us down to either two or three vehicles and most importantly, I quit purchasing them new.

Like you, we've been debt-free since we were 36 years old (we're now both 61).

I've done well in the stock market, I was able to walk away from Corporate America at 48, and I was able to enjoy my strongest passion (playing football) until I was in my early 40s when age, declining skills, and numerous surgeries to fix football injuries finally forced me to turn in my helmet and shoulder pads.

I've managed to get where I am with discipline, focus, planning, budgeting, and an ever-minded habit of reducing our spending on a consistent basis.

But my financial habits do not always sit well with my wife so it is a constant challenge to satisfy my need to invest/save against her preference to spend/splurge.

She loves home improvement projects and I would be embarrassed to admit how many of those I've caved in to during the past 15 years.

She sees a home as an investment. I see it as an expense. More and more scholars in the financial arena are tending to agree with me.

Yes, we all need homes, but we do not need to drop $25,000 or $50,000 a pop simply because our wives are tired of the current decor and see something on HGTV that they develop an addiction to emulate.

I fight that battle all the time. She began taking pottery classes in September 2014 at a local studio, spends much of her time there, has gotten fairly skilled at certain aspects of making pottery, and now wants to add a professional pottery studio off one wing of our home.

I know full well that this pottery thing may turn out to be just another whim, so spending $30,000 or more to satisfy her current craving would be foolish at this juncture.

Bear in mind that we have a complete home gym upstairs that she swore would become her constant habitat. I created the home gym at her request in November 2013, spent thousands to do so, she was fairly rigorous about it for a few months, but since she got into pottery her home gym essentially sits unused.

Another wasteful project that will probably never be worth a fraction of my time, effort, and funds to create it....

As most of us on this forum know, the only financially-sustainable way to own our Jaguars is to perform the vast majority of maintenance and repairs ourselves.

That's why most of us are here. We know that with the support of this forum and some smart parts sourcing, we can run these cars on reasonable budgets. Not Honda or Toyota budgets, but reasonable nonetheless.

I am squarely in that crowd. The ONLY strictly cosmetic purchase I've ever made on either of our two Jaguars was a custom wooden shift knob for my wife's XK8 in October 2012.

But I must admit that I ordered it as a birthday present for her knowing she would love it and knowing as well that it would be worth many brownie points down the road....

I know you're in the jewelry business, and I must admit that jewelry is another industry that I attempt to avoid at all costs.

My wife loves jewelry, she has collected many fine pieces over the decades, and she rarely wears any of it. Her argument to me is, "My jewelry is an investment and you should be glad that I have such good taste and only acquire classic items."

My response is always, "Okay, let's sell some of your jewelry now and reap the rewards before the price of gold/silver/platinum/diamonds/pearls falls again." You can probably guess how many pieces she's sold over the years to take profits. Zero....

So to wind this up, we're very comfortable and we can do what we want, go where we want, buy what we want, etc.

But we're not in this position due to foolish spending and flushing money down the drain. We're in this position because I'm still running the same budget and financial philosophy that I developed shortly before we were married in 1979.

Yes, it has been tweaked for the times over the years but the concept remains exactly the same. She doesn't fight me nearly as much on it as she used to because she now understands what it has been able to do for us from a wealth-building perspective.

So I'm fortunate in that regard and I realize (and appreciate) that she has modified her behavior more for me than I have modified my behavior for her....

Hope this helps your understanding of what makes me tick....

 

I suppose its akin to a sculptor or painter who labors away at his latest work of art, slowly morphing the stone, metal or canvas into his latest creation. He labors on until he is satisfied that it can be no better. Then he loses interest and sells the piece on.

There are some ppl in this business that do this successfully for a profit, some of the larger custom / restoration shops. And MANY others that do it as a hobby.

But for most, the process and the transformation is the most enjoyable part of the project. Once they are done, it's time to move on and start anew with something else. I've been guilty of this a few times although my resources and knowledge generally lead to me at least breaking close to even. The more sweat equity you have in the car, the less the overall bill. Cheap work isn't good and good work isn't cheap.

Now onto Jon and his Jags. Honestly I don't think they would cost him more than a toyohonisubishi to maintain if he was the "average" car owner who drops his car off at a dealer or indy shop whenever there is a problem or it needs maintenance. People think toyotas and hondas are cheap to operate until they price the costs of parts. Sure there are some unique and rather pricy jaguar parts, but for the most part they are just cars like anything else.

Take care,

George

 

"People think toyotas and hondas are cheap to operate until they price the costs of parts. Sure there are some unique and rather pricy jaguar parts, but for the most part they are just cars like anything else. "

Blasphemy, just plain and simple....May the Jaguar gods descend on you and take their revenge.

 

Bite your tongue dear sir.

We have a shop that services all makes and models. I'm personally a European car fan and don't care for the sterile driving experience afforded by Asian cars. They are like the boring frumpy housewife that ppl marry bc it seems like a good choice, then end up having an affair. (I'm not married so I can make such cavalier statements)

But the reality is ppl fear jags bc of their reputation, and at least In the post ford era that fear is unwarranted.

Take care,

George

 

agreed, but to call a Jaguar "just a car like anything else" is just plain crazy talk I tell ya, crazy talk!

 

Well, That does put things into perspective. It's obvious we are two totally different people and have quite different outlooks on life.
I do keep an eye on my finances, and probably, well, most definitely would be someone you consider a bit irresponsible with my money but the things I do with my money brings me a lot of happiness and enjoyment. (not unlike your football passion) And I'll keep doing things as long as money, time and energy afford.
I have worked with so many clients over the years in remodels, from totally gut jobs to simple redecorating and updating rooms, and I have had my share of couples similar to you and your wife. That's where my expertise has made me a LOT of money! I was the mediator between many a wife who wanted it all, and husband who sees no reason to change anything, no matter how old or dated. I was able to reuse many things and keep both happy. ( although the husbands were never really happy with the change, just the completion! LOL)
My cars make me happy. I have no children but to me, my cars are my kids. I never regret any $ ive put into them. I want to see them healthy, happy and be the best they can be! And hope that if they go on to another owner/partner, I want them to bring as much happiness they've brought me!
On a side note, Im not so sure your in the majority of members simply being here to keep their cars running. Most of the members I've encountered here are passionate about their Jaguars and more than a few love to update and modify and enjoy seeing other's ideas. I looked back at a lot of the threads you've commented on that I've posted and actually have seen you be quite nice with your posts.
But to sum up my initial reason for this thread, I simply wondered if my car could have a better value with its modifications. Obviously not for a purist, but in general. Since posting this, I've now had 7 offers for it and obviously my mods have added to its value as none have been less the 15k. (if the local offer hits the 19K I probably will)
And to answer the question of will I sell, I just don't know. The right car hasn't turned up in my budget to replace it and the Aston is a NO. Money pit even before any cosmetics.

 

What a great testament to the awesome work you have done on it Phil !!!

 

I will weigh in since I consider myself to mostly be a purist. I generallyonly modify my car to add something that wasn't possible from the factory or to fix something that I think the factory got wrong, so my mods are probably invisible to the non-enthusiast. All I have done is change the exhaust, add a little wood trim (and will be adding a touch more using the faux finishing technique found on this forum), swap out the subwoofers, add the three piece XKR grille, and will be modifying the taillights (similar to the final/victory series smoked ones), and add a switch for the antenna. Apart from the loud exhaust, most wouldn't know that my car didn't leave Coventry the way that it is.

That said, I really like your car. Sure, there are things that I would have done differently, but they are easy to redo and everything is done to the high level. Between that and the slowly upward creeping prices, means that you should be able to ask a good price for your car. I don't think >$20k is out of the question and I would definitely start it there.

 

I've decided to keep it at least until mid summer, mainly because I've not even tried to sell and with all these offers, mostly from customers at my mechanics, I think it could do well if shown at a few car events focused on gear heads and enthusiasts. And I'd like one more opportunity to take to the JCNA this July and hopefully show it without the rained out conditions.
And the XK I was seriously interested in, 07, sold so the preasure is off for now.

 

Hey Phil,
I'm happy you're holding on to her for at least a little while. May I suggest that before you sell (if you do) that you have the car professionally photographed so that you have a high quality permanent record for yourself as well as the ability to give the buyer a DVD with the photos.

Several years ago, I designed and built a home next door to mine. In anticipation of selling it, I staged it and hired a photographer for a day so that I would have a record of my first project of this scale.

As it turned out, we kept the house and leased it, and not only do I use the photos on a regular basis with clients, but my family was very jealous, and we used many of the ideas from the photos to remodel our home.

Good luck.

 

Did clients ask if the Pantera came with the house?

 

The first thing I did when I sold my Harley night train a few years back was remove EVERY aftermarket accessory and sell them on eBay. THEN I sold the bike, bone stock. Got much more money for the sum of the parts versus the whole thing. Harley owners always spend way too much on accessories then pass out when they see how little the customized bike brings on the open market.

Ditto for cars, mostly. Ask anyone who bought a conversion van back in the 80s or 90s when they were popular - they got hammered when they learned the resale value was no different than a fully optioned passenger van, velour captains chairs notwithstanding.

I suspect this car will draw interest, but not excessive bidding. It's nice, but these cars are just too common. Moreover, they represent a period when Jaguar meant cars for old fogies. Therefore, no young guy who's finally turned 35 and making decent money will be interested in buying one over the book value, if at all. Sad to say, but our market has moved on.

What makes a car worth money in terms of being collectible usually has to do with exclusive power plants and transmission combos. That one in a million XKR we've seen videos of, with the right hand drive and six speed? Yeah - that car would be worth something, IF Jaguar didn't send it to the scrap yard right after they tested it.

Good luck but I say might as well keep it or maybe pass it on to a relative.

 

I totally understand the mod vs non mod value and how it can actually decrease the value of the car.
That being said, ironically the best offer I've had is from a 68 year old man. Way over its value but he likes how unique mine is (he has 7 XK8's and R's all stock) I was also planning on reversing a few over the top mods but he quickly said NO!! I did loose the titanium wrapped fascia for a very unique factory wood set that matches the colors of the car.
And as I said, I've kept the original wheels, and rear seat if ever someone wants more factory car.
It does take a unique, special shall we say, buyer to want my mods but I'm finding, surprisingly, there are a lot more out there than I thought. Maybe it is because there are plenty of stock ones available, it makes mine look suprisingly more modern without loosing the original lines. And I assumed my Union Jack details would be an issue but just the opposite! They are some of the most popular details to the interested buyers!!
I still want one more car show under its belt and then I'll decide.
Right now I've turned my attention to my XF. It's old enough now that I don't mind playing around with it now. Yes, modifying to the n'th degree!! Lol

 

Jandreu, you post got me to thinking about the relative market values and availability that a 25-35 year old might experience if he were looking for a unique or classy car as a toy or personal statement.

I used the cargurus.com site and did a search limited to 500 miles from my zip for two different but similar cars. Either a 2003-2004 Corvette or a 2003-2004 XKR. The results were interesting. Let me say that I live in Florida which is a state in which you could expect to find a healthy supply of both cars.

First the Corvettes. There were 131 listings including coupes, convertibles, and ZO6's with mileages from the mid-30's to well over 171,000. Their prices (excluding the junkers) ranged from a high of $36,900 for a 26,000 mile modified 2004 Z06 Coupe down to $12,995 for a 2003 coupe with 101,000 miles.


The Jaguars were another story however. There were a total of only 6 cars listed and only 1 of those was an XKR (closest to a Z06). From high to low they ranged from $19,000 for a 2004 XKR Portfolio with 67,500 miles to $12,200 for a 2003 XK8 with 96,700 miles on it. There were NO coupes, just convertible.

In this regional "study" the above described buyer could choose from 131 Corvettes of varying prices, body styles, and power trains. He could buy a 2003 Corvette Coupe with 101,000 miles for $12,900 or a 2003 XK8 Convertible with 96,700 miles for $12,200.


If he had plenty of coin he could purchase a 2004 Z06 with a lot of modifications and low miles for just under $37,000, but a more normally priced 'Vette started at $25,000 for a 2004 Z06 Coupe (unmodified) with 38,000 miles. So for $25K he can buy the Corvette Z06 Coupe or for $19K he can buy the 2004 XKR Portfolio with 68,000 miles.

If you're hunting for unique, sporty, a personal statement with perhaps a little zip thrown in for grins which would you choose?

 

I'd buy and did buy the Jaguar for just that reason, they are not a dime a dozen.

 

Exactly.

I bought mine right before I turned 25 (insurance royally stunk those first months) and I'm just shy of 31 now.