Made by Ford employees in a Ford Plant (yes, I know..they are dedicated to Jag engine production...a real fine line).

 

Thank you for being so astute!!

 

Haha.

Cheers,
Dave

 

Curious if the news was the new Merc TT V8 was going to be used if the response would be better?

 

Aston Martin is getting that V8, from what I have read it's mixed emotions. Some like it, some hate it. Hope it will sound as nice, but turbos never tend to sound as nice as NA engines or supercharged engines. The price of progress.

 

Jaguar has always had their own engines and unique sound. I consider this a big misstep by TaTa.


Mike

 

For better or worse, I think the core issue here is the shift in the sweet spot of Jaguar engines from (6 and) 8-cyl platforms to 4- and 6- cylinder platforms. This is where Jaguar are concentrating their engine R&D efforts as it is a major endeavor to own an in-house engine platform (the Ingenium) and Jaguar is still sub-scale compared to competitors.

I think the Ingenium strategy is absolutely the right move as global fuel economy regulations and powerplant energy densities seem to point to the 4/6 platform as the right place for Jaguar to be if it wants to future-proof the Ingenium investment (i.e. create a long enough useful horizon to amortize its large investment).

The consequence of the concentration of resources is the need to outsource the V8 engine further. There are few scale providers of V-8 supercharged engines and the ones who are providing today are not necessarily going to do so in the future (Jaguar needs to think several years in advance here). So a move to turbo makes business sense as a direct consequence of the Ingenium strategy.

That doesn't mean I like it, but it seems like a rational decision driven by financial and business realities which us car guys don't like :-)

BTW there will be no supercharger whine, but V8 turbo engines can still make very distinctive sound....there are lots of examples here.

 

I understand fully, I just don't like BMW. They have made their Inline 6 for decades, still can't get them right IMO (oil consumption, leaks, sludge, etc). I see the same things for their V8's future.


Add a BMW engine to a ZF automatic (I assume), you just have a Jaguar bodied BMW.


M

 

I understand the business case for outsourcing a low production engine, but the business case for putting a BMW engine in a Jaguar is flawed IMO. At that point you have removed a large part of what makes a Jaguar a Jaguar and differentiates it from other brands. Would you buy a Corvette with a BMW engine in it?

 

I thought the Ingenium engine architecture was going to allow Jaguar to set it up for V-8 production as well.. or at least I seem to recall reading that a year or so ago. Turbo charged engines I suppose win the efficiency battle, yet with the relatively small number of V-8's that Jaguar would sell the hope would be that they would have room for supercharged V-8's in the R lineup.

Regardless of economics and efficiency of R&D capital, the more I think about BMW supplying Jaguar, the more it turns me off completely to the R brand.
Lawrence.

 

BMW engines are trouble........

 

Exactly!

 

The article is correct, it is not based the current or any previous Ford V8 although I would still consider the AJ engine a Ford engine. It was originally designed by Jaguar engineers when Jaguar was part of Ford, likely with help and software from Ford powertrain. It was was used in about 200,000 Ford/Lincoln cars, it is assembled in a Ford engine plant and you can still get some parts for it over the counter at a Ford dealership if you know the part numbers.

The real answer would be who makes the raw castings for it before they are machined (block, heads) and who owns the tooling used in assembly. My guess is it is a Ford parts supplier or foundary and Ford tooling.

One thing is for sure, Ford is not letting Tata use their plant for free. At a minimum they are getting royalties out of the deal and I think that makes the decision to switch an easy one. Better efficiency, better performance numbers, lower cost in terms of powertrain integration (they will likely use identical transmissions to BMW). I would agree with others here about superchargers vs turbos, but the public doesn't really get that. They are looking for a peak number and the cars will still be plenty fast.

 

For me, I moved to Jaguar because they were supercharged and a distinctive brand that I thought was moving towards what BMW used to be. I'm glad I bought my R now as I had a feeling the SC v8 may be coming to end. Never thought it would get taken down by a BMW engine. This is a bad branding move and dilutes the JLR brand they have been working to rebuild. I can't say how disappointing this move is, sold out and cheapened regardless of what is said about the "business" in it.

 

I think claiming that BMW engine cheapens the car is a bit hyperbolic. That is state of the art power plant that will likely be shared with M4. I fully expect F-type with the new engine to out-perform existing cars both in economy and raw power. I also expect that Rs will be available with a manual gearbox.

Still, I'd rather have a supercharged car. It has more 'flavor' and no turbo lag. At the same time, JLR didn't tune existing engine to maximum potential - torque curve is outright regrettable and more like what you'd expect out of turbocharged engine. If you ever drove naturally aspirated V8 Mercedes you will know how it could/should be done.

 

So, if Ford is kicking them out, what's their alternative? Perhaps they had no other choice. It could well be that the BMW agreement was the only V8 deal they were able to negotiate.

Would folks have felt better if it had been a deal with GM for the LT4 (Z06 engine @ 650HP/650TQ)?

 

This is a rhetorical question.

Wait, you are asking seriously... Aside from anti-GM snobbery, what is not to like about it?

 

I do not really have anything to add here, but....I am also disturbed with the idea of a BMW turbo or any turbo. I would like to see the manufacturers offer a sports car with natural aspiration or, at worst, a supercharger. Porsche is already on my blacklist. It is claimed that environmental requirements are driving them to turbos because requirements will no longer be fleetwide. I can only cry about that. If Jaguar does indeed move to turbos in the F-Type then the only thing I can really examine for my next car is the Vette. I hope they are at a C8 by then, that looks more like a Jaguar.
Larry

 

As far as we know now, there is nothing preventing you from holding onto existing supercharged F-type for many years. Newer isn't always better, as older 911 Porsche prices can demonstrate.

The only two issues are so far long-term concerns - carbon build up due to DI, and chain wear due to carbon nanoparticles. Both are manageable with forward-looking preventive maintenance.

 

Absolutely, no anti-GM snobbery here. Look at my signature below. There's nothing not to like. The supercharged LT4 is a truly remarkable engine. However, I don't believe GM allows their "halo" performance engines to be used by other manufacturers.

If JLR wanted it they probably couldn't get it. Which leads me back to my original speculation that JLR may not have had much, if any, choice of high-performance V8s, once Ford kicked them out. The BMW may have been their only choice.