Has anyone ever had any experience with lemon laws? I am in California. Also I love my car, so it isn't one of "those" threads.

My car is in the shop for about the sixth time in the last eight months or so. They have at least had it for 30 days or so total. Probably more. I've had some interesting issues with what appears to be a fuel injection problem, where too much fuel is ending up in the catalytic converter or something more technical than I can comprehend, and it shakes violently. I've documented it another thread, but often it's just the check engine light repeatedly coming on, and they can't figure out what's going on. I've got plenty of video and documentation of the different issues. The dealer is great, so I doubt I'd have to aggressively document and compile all the history.

I'm not unhappy. I love the car and would buy another one at the drop of a hat. I understand modern cars are basically computers on wheels and very complex, and this does not seem to be an ongoing problem for any of you.

It's funny because I consider it a car subscription service, because I get a drive plenty of different types of Jaguars and Land Rovers while the car is in the shop, but my good nature is being tested slightly, and I wonder if I should go down the road of understanding lemon laws and what the dealer should do. I might give them the grace of this final time in trying to understand and repair the problem.

My dealer is awesome, they've been nothing but bad *** in supporting this issue. But what are your experiences with lemon laws and doing stuff like that? Is it something I should consider? I'm at about 37,000 miles, 12,000 short of warranty. Any advice, experiences, or thoughts?

Like I said, I love this car and have zero problems with the odea of a JagJ other than this constant annoying issue that is a little frustrating. A friend brought up lemon laws, and said I'm way too nice a guy. Would appreciate your thoughts.

 

 

I've been knee-deep in many lemon-law cases.

Sometimes quite easy; others very adversarial. Lots of variables.


First things first. Look up the lemon laws as they apply in California...quite a variance from state-to-state.... and determine if there's anything that would obviously disqualify you. I've seen customers who have been thru hell and high water with their cars but fell outside of lemon law protection

Cheers
DD

 

http://www.dca.ca.gov/acp/pdf_files/englemn.pdf

This document may offer some guidance. Found it via web search. Looks like it's somewhat official, but can't say for sure. I'm not a lawyer or legal expert.

After reading the overview on the lemon law it appears that 18 months or 18000 miles is the cutoff, but not sure that it's black and white. Did the problem that still isn't fixed start before 18 mos or 18k miles? Regardless there still may be ability to work out a trade or buyback. Hope you get this resolved to your satisfaction.

 

If the current servicing dealership is the same as the one you leased/purchased the vehicle from, speak with the General Manager or Dealer Principal. They may be able to have JLR send a Field Technical Expert to the dealership to assist with the issue.

If they've already taken steps to get JLR involved, contact Jaguar corporate in New Jersey and ask them for relief, either in the form of another vehicle, or a refund of payments.

 

Sorry to hear of your difficulties. One question to help with our answers here.

Did you buy it new?

If not, lemon laws would not be applicable as they ONLY cover "new from manufacture" vehicles. CPO is NOT covered by lemon laws.

 

Lemon Laws aren't all that great for the consumer anyway..if settled you only get the devalued remainder of the car's worth back. (They take off for mileage then buy it back.)

Check with an attorney, but there are other consumer protection laws that vary from state to state that have way more teeth than the lemon law. These laws are there to protect the lives of consumers from faulty products that could cause harm.

You will have to establish that you've given the dealer over three fair chances to fix the problem, and that your recurring issue poses a safety issue while you are driving the car, endangering you and others.

There may be a two year time limit from the purchase date of the car for you to use some of these types laws.

If you are protected and if your case is very solid, it is likely you will get all your attorney fees back at the mediation (as these rarely make it to court). At least that was how it went in my mediation as a plaintiff against a Japanese auto titan, where I won a full buyback at original purchase price and and then some...it did take some investment in time and money on my part though.


Consult an attorney..it's not mean, it's smart.

 

Sounds like you have a good relationship with your dealer - I'd have a friendly chat with the GM, if you haven't already. See where that leads you.

 

Mis-leading. In MOST cases they get their money back from the original purchase and all attorney fees paid. Heck, your statement even showed that was what you got as well so a bit odd that you would indicate otherwise and then contradict yourself later but whatever.

Also mis-leading. Perhaps you are confusing RECALLs with Lemon laws as the later do NOT require any such justification regarding "endangering" anyone. Rather, things as simple as a manufacturer being un-able to fix a defective A/C system (link below) over multiple attempts over a reasonable period exceeding 3 attempts or more is sufficient.

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/f...-190827/page3/

 

This is the way to procewed. The one word of advise I will offer is just don't use the term "Lemon Law". They can do more for you if you just ask. If not ask the GM to reach out to Corporate.

 

Yes. They made that totally clear.... and I am happy about that for sure. But it's just that my car has been in the shop substantially for the last 3 months, basically, out for weeks at a time.

It seems CA is 18 months or 18,000 miles. It seems I was nearer 2 years and 20K or so. In researching all my paper docs, I do know I brought this up within the terms, but I don't think it was demonstrable w/ a check engine or computer recording until after the 18K. Actually memory is a nefarious thing, so I am glad I saved these docs.

It seems, by paper records, that in June of 2017 is the first experience with the issue, and I had that thread! https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/f...rience-184004/

So precisely 20 months to the day, basically. And there's no way I was anything but 27K miles in, so no lemon for me.

But asking questions is good... because it seems this issue started a few weeks after k433 campaign where they replaced the oxygen sensors, and an evap hose. Any chance these things are related?

 

good stuff. thanks for the comment. JLR is involved for sure, which is why they seem to take their time with the car. They are studying it as a test case, methinks. =)

 

I ordered it direct from the factory, fully a custom build.

 

You appear to have a good relationship with your dealer so... follow the sage words of a classic movie

 

Oh man, so sorry to hear that you are STILL having trouble. I hope you get it resolved soon. (I know I've said ~that~ before...)

 

MAN. I miss Swayze. He was amazing. Went way too young.

But the quote itself reminds me of something.... the dealer and my service rep have commented how I am the happiest and most patient guy. I had to break out a saying that I thought was from the Tao, but it's actually John Dryden. I will put the full poem below, but I told the dealer "beware the fury of a patient man" LOL We shall see....

Thanks for the support you fine humans.

------------------

Oh that my Pow'r to Saving were confin’d:
Why am I forc’d, like Heav’n, against my mind,
To make Examples of another Kind?
Must I at length the Sword of Justice draw?
Oh curst Effects of necessary Law!
How ill my Fear they by my Mercy scan,
Beware the Fury of a Patient Man.

Pt. I, line 999–1005. Compare Publius Syrus, Maxim 289, "Furor fit læsa sæpius patientia" ("An over-taxed patience gives way to fierce anger").

 

I did not explain it clearly enough for you, and did not intentionally mislead. Let me explain it differently.

I did not claim my suit under the Texas lemon law, where the manufacturer offer was a DEVALUED offer on the car, far less than my original purchase price. (Bought car at $32K, 23 months later they offered me $22K buyback under the Texas lemon law after three failed and replaced transmissions. That's $10K LESS than original purchase price. It was only AFTER my suit in the later months that the manufacturer acknowledged they had a bad part and did a national safety recall). Also, attorney fees are rarely part of a lemon law offer, these Lemon Law offers from the Manufacturer Management reps usually come before the attorneys get involved...

I REFUSED their sorry lemon law settlement offer at only $22K, and hired an attorney.

After speaking with an attorney, I learned they broke the law by selling me a dangerous- to- drive car, and it was the Texas Fair Trade Act that protected me and from which I got a settlement. There are other similar consumer protection laws that vary state to state that carry more teeth than the Lemon Laws, and this is why I advise consulting an attorney in your specific state to find which laws will protect you, the consumer, better than the local Lemon Law will.. More clear now?

As an example I sued under the Texas Fair Trade Act, easily demonstrating the car they sold me was a safety hazard, and in mediation I was able to get all my original purchase price back, plus attorney fees and considerable car rental fees. That means I got over $45K back, or $12K OVER my original purchase price. I did not mean to mislead you, funny you took it that way. $45K is way better then $22K, don't you agree ?

Had I refused the mediation settlement and taken them to court, I could have easily sought treble damages for time and anguish! So had I been vindictive I could have gone for a settlement of $100K, and would likely have won in a jury trial, my case was so easy to demonstrate.




This thread is about a FUEL INJECTION problem not fixed after 6 visits, not an AC problem. A fuel injection failure while driving on a freeway certainly poses a direct safety hazard to the driver and others my friend, we are not talking an AC or stereo here. Anything that PERMANENTLY interferes with the safe operation of the vehicle (AKA: this fuel injection problem that the manufacturer cannot resolve) constitutes a misrepresentation of goods by the manufacturer, and extends your rights as a consumer well beyond only lemon law protections. And THIS was my point.

(Yes, you can get them to take a car back under a lemon law for a bad ac after three failed fixes, but you will get a DEVALUED return for your car, they will deduct value for whatever mileage you have put on the car. Personally in that example I'd rather just get the ac fixed than loose several thousands in devaluation and have to go buy another vehicle.)

In Texas, read here and you will see there are two equations that you have to plug your mileage into in order to calculate your pro-rated lemon law settlement amounts, based on a useful lifespan of 120K miles as set by DOT here in Texas. Lemon laws do not get you 100 Pct back here in Texas if you put mileage on the car.

https://www.bbb.org/us/Storage/16/Do...-LLsummary.pdf


Repeating for effect:

There are consumer protection laws that vary state to state that carry more teeth than the Lemon Laws, and this is why I advise consulting an attorney in your specific state to find which laws will protect you, the consumer, better than the local Lemon Law will. The templates for most Lemon laws were written, in part, by the Automobile Manufacturer Lobby, if that gives you a hint...and those paid Lobbiests are in state and national Representatives ears right now, I assure you, about to enjoy a steak lunch.... Tons of $$$$......

Consult a lawyer, know your rights. Knowledge IS power!

 

Agreed on above as it's always YMMV. Also appreciate the additional background on your experience and that explains why you may think that nobody EVER gets full value from their Lemon Buy back but... others WERE successful getting their FULL purchase price back without ANY depreciation. I'll try to find the (other) thread where another guy got his full purchase price back on LBB. I don't think he had any need for a lawyer but, as was you case, others may well need one to protect their interest.

 

 

Okay... this was the 1st thread: https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/f...-184004/page3/
very not-exact, but at about 22K miles it started, immediately after an o2 sensor recall/upgrade.
It would be intermittent, and I had to take it in w/ a CEL at least 4 or 5 times before they were even sure what the problem was, and that only happened after the shop foreman told me to identify the exact mileage when it happened, and they were able to trace it back to a computer, etc. Stopping the car and turning it back on would immediately "reboot" it and the problem would go away. Not the CEL. The only time the fast flashing light would come on would be during the event, and it would go away when turn off/turn on car.

The codes were as follows:

P0300 - General misfire
P0301 cylinder #1 misfire
P1315 pre-aesthetic misfire
P2097 cat fuel trim too rich bank #1

All this since k433 02 sensor recall update.


End of the story:
They had the car two months, a week, and two days. I am literally going to pick it up right now, and yes... I get this is a train wreck that could be ongoing. But they had the car that long because my service rep did not want this to happen again, and he was almost angry about the way it was being handled, and didn't want me to cope with coming back over and over. They gave me a 380hp S AT, and I HATED IT. Just awful... needy, mudbubbly sounding muffler, more akin to a US muscle car than elegant GT roadster type. So at least it made me respect the base model *even more*, which shocked me.

But they took apart the entire freaking engine, and replaced a bunch of stuff. Part after part ordered and waited on, etc. I am sure something else will go wrong, but that's why I've already spoken to them about full buyback at high value, and new car at HQ/dealer cost ordered from the factory. I've 40K miles on the thing, and if the difference is spending a few thousand for the mileage of the 1st car, and buying a brand new one, so be it. Hopefully, however, the problem is fixed, and I can start enjoying this forum again without the bittersweet longing of my broken freaking car.

The dealer was awesome. Offered to make a payment, but I purchased the car outright. Then they fixed a broken grill, some messed up 3M paint, and it sounds like they will fix the clutch for free when it's ready to be swapped, as a courtesy.

I am lucky I am patient to a fault. Or I'm just stupid. But this is likely going to be ongoing, I am assuming. We shall see, but frankly, the worst case scenario is that I have a car that will be under warranty forever, because if this keeps popping up, they must legally deal with it even out of warranty. They've made that clear. For the "worst case situation" of not having my car for so long, it's just a moment in life, and what can I do about it. I mean, if my biggest problem is driving a noisy and inelegant automatic transmission while my beautiful car is getting fixed, then I don't really have that many problems, do I?

I wish you luck. All I can advise is make sure your dealer is top notch, and be patient. The fix is this weird back and forth between HQ and dealer, and it's a worldwide queue where HQ answers dealer questions in order as they are received. In this, the back and forth takes a long time as they dig deeper and deeper to find and fix all the problems.

It's a really weird problem, and I have *got* to assume it's not a common one. I've never seen it besides my problem, and now yours. Hopefully it's something different. I thought it would have just been cheaper to replace the engine, but apparently no.