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"BBC Top Gear Aston Martin vantage review predicted the demise in 2012........but maybe not quite yet!"
I thought the video was as well done as the Vantage. Both beautiful.
With electricity, all you are doing is moving the pollution around, and in most cases generating the electricity with even dirtier burning fuel. Try telling me coal is cleaner than petrol. If you're using nukes, we can talk again...maybe.
Exactly. And nukes look a litlle less promising as the Fukushima meltdown continues uncontained, with early indications it may be killing the entire Pacific Ocean, potentially killing most life on Earth. Thanks green energy!
First off, I'm a millennial. I agree with what was brought up earlier- it's not a dislike of driver's cars, but rather a lack of disposable income to spend on fun things like cars. There have ALWAYS been people who just want mass transit cars- that's why brands like Buick and Hyundai exist in the first place. And there will always be a market for sports cars- hence why Ferrari, Lamborghini, and McLaren are doing just fine.
Also, electricity will not be the death of the sports car. Just look at the hybrid hypercard and the new NSX- hybrids are awesome. A friend of mine owns a Model S, and yeah it's fast, but there's no emotion. Hybrids will dominate the supercar and sports car world within the next 10 years because they're just such a perfect blend of the benefits of electric torque with the emotions, soundtrack, and engagement of a combustion engine.
You make a good point that the sports car sales cliff could be caused by economic stress, and a corresponding need for practical cars only. As far as some sports car brands doing well, I beg to differ. The Ford Escape outsells all sports cars combined, and Porsche, Lambo, Mas, Jag, Alfa, etc. are making a once unthinkable play for the SUV market. Sports cars are on life support.
As far as electric making sense, they don't IMO. Thats why the only minimally successful EV, the Leaf, has the worst resale value in automotive history. Tesla will file for bankruptcy within two years, probably one, to match its S&P junk rating, exhausted cash pool and infinite P/E ratio.
With EVs its not performance that is the issue, it is the poor economics of the long term business case: very expensive, disposable cars.
A very interesting and thought provoking thread with lots of diverging thoughts!
History tends to repeat itself so let's begin with a bit of a historical perspective: Back in the day of "horse and buggies" the "horseless carriage" was considered a grave threat and wasn't exactly embraced with open arms. There were all sorts of rumors about the "evils" of mechanical vehicles and how they would hasten the demise of the then entrenched organic modes of transportation. If they had websites and forums back then you would probably hear very similar concerns.
Fast forward to today. We are currently in the age of fossil fuels which is again rapidly transforming to other cleaner forms of propulsion. Do some people on this forum feel threatened about this? Are we not unlike the folks back in the day who were challenged by the notion of a horseless carriage? I think so. Whether we like it or not, times and the world have changed. The popularity and convenience of fossil fuel powered vehicles has grown far beyond anyone's expectations. As a result we have clogged roadways and whether we like it or not, we are damaging the very environment in which we live (not just vehicles).
So, where do we go from here? I have heard the term "to each his own" mentioned on numerous occasions on this forum. There are those of us who love the sounds and smells of our ICE's. There are others who choose alternative methods of transportation that are "cleaner". Can the two cultures coexist? I think so. Folks, it will be awhile before the multi billion dollar fossil fuel automotive industry and its associated infrastructure is considered obsolete and other cleaner methods of propulsion are developed and optimized. So I wouldn't be too concerned today that we are on the crest of an EV revolution.
So enjoy our F-Types and don't worry that they will be considered obsolete any time soon. I personally applaud and embrace the new technologies of today. For one there is a potential silver lining to it all for ICE owners. If you subscribe to the economics of "Supply and Demand" then the proliferation of alternative fueled vehicles will inevitably decrease the current demand for fossil fuels which is falling by the day and are currently being produced at record levels. So if some of that demand goes away - what do you think will happen to the price of gas?
If all else fails, we can all become curmudgeons like those before us who (to this day) totally rejected the "horseless carriages" and remained with the tried and proven horse and buggies of yesteryear. Then we will all be referred to as the current day F-Type "Amish" or "Quakers".
It's going to be okay. Change is inevitable so get used to it!
I like my F-Type and it's an awesome car! And I wouldn't worry about the future. Gas cars won't die out any time soon. I think it's going to be like manual cars and going to be available for decades to come.
In the future, I may pick up an interesting electric car, or an interesting autonomous car. There will always be something interesting and enjoyable out there.
To me its not an E-Type to F-Type continuation, but an XJ220 refresh, which is not a bad thing. The XJ220 was named for its 220mph top speed and managed 3.8s 0-60 in 1994 with a 3.5L V-6. Shocking numbers for 25 years ago. Shocking pricetag, too at $450K. Of course, in actuality, you made some money buying one, bringing the price down to around [minus $50K].
The new J-Type doesn't concern me as much as a pure EV silent F-Type, which would be the end of popular Jag sports cars IMO for the reasons above. Except that as a rumored Mclaren rival, one could imagine the J-Type pricetag might start with a 2.
Having lived the e-life for 25 months now, BMW i3Rex and i8, I disagree with you. True car enthusiast have a car for every specific need and electrics are no different. They have blistering fast 0-40 mph times, making them phenomenal in city traffic. The i3 for example, with a very tight turning radius, generous interior space compared to outside dimensions, serves the purpose of extremely comfortable and practical grocery getter, kids transportation etc.The i8 is a nice car with acceptable performance, low operating costs and it's still a fun car to drive. I also enjoyed the i-Pace for a couple of weeks and it's everything I would expect in an electric car in that class. Yes, indeed it feels very odd the first time you drive an electric car and all you barely hear is the whine of a single speed electric motor, but if you understand and accept that it's a way to get from point A to point B as efficiently as possible and forego the stuff that rewards your senses, such as engine sound, gear shifts etc. you will find electric car driving perfectly fine. After a long day of work, it's nice to sit in a very quiet car, listen to some relaxing classical music and drive home. Even the overly intrusive driving aids suddenly become welcome... Then of course there are the times when you want to drive for fun, you grab the keyfob, slip into your F-Type or similar 2 seater "analog car" and you take over most of the control, your ears tune into a different sound, your right pedal controls your outburst of emotions and you get that sense of inner satisfaction from taming the beast around the twisties while letting everyone around you know that you are having a blast.
2 door, 2 seat cars are becoming very rare, they totally lack practicality and they represent nothing more than a fun toy. Someone above mentions student loans... well, if you were a decent parent, you would have managed your finances in such a way that your kids would not have to resort to student loans, if you were a selfish and financially irresponsible individual, you screwed your kids over. In any event, 2 door 2 seats sports cars are a luxury, defined by the lack of contribution to the actual family life and limited to reduced use for purely recreational use. The sales figures for the F-Type are in the 1XX per month, the lowest ever but this is also evident with other similar cars in the same class/segment.
Generalizing about the future of cars is counterproductive, what we are observing now is Jaguar's effort to survive by pushing their more popular and top sellers as well as boldly entering the EV market. The single biggest obstacle to EV success is the poor charging infrastructure, either every buyer has a level 2 charger at home (220V/30A orr better providing around 20 miles/hr of charge) or Level 3 fast chargers need to become popular in a hurry.
While quoting 1/4 mi times is and has been an american idiocy at least to me, 0-60 mph. remains the most relevant performance indicator as it tells us how quickly a vehicle can get to top performance and the legal limit, with increasing car volume and stagnant road infrastructure expansion, you will notice from your Jaguar Incontrol app that your average speed on longer trips is usually well below the speed limit. Modern cars, with their driving aids, are attempting to optimize safety and traffic flow... and quite frankly helping all of us avoid those people that should not be driving at all. In short, mainstream car production focuses on moving people and their belongings quickly and efficiently. There will always be higher performance cars, they are changing however to be more environmentally friendly. Nobody will come and grab your 12 cylinder Ferrari and you can always take it out for fun but we need to embrace change. EV are not terrible, EV life can be challenging but it's very efficient.
I would like to see the current F-Type stay the course for many more years. Move the R AWD into the 650-700 hp range, get 0-60 into the mid 2s, top speed doesn't matter, and the price goes sideways or down.
Keep it as the only semi-affordable muscle car with an exotic vibe.
The 2020 Vette is self destructing as a mid engine exotic wannabe, so there is no more $75K - $95K competition in the F-Type's class. Not that the Vette was ever competion in looks or sound.
The problems with the EVF-Type do not include street light performance, but they are many: poor refueling infrustucture, recharge time, high future electricity prices, cheap gas prices, similar CO2 output at the power plant, silent operation, inabilty to run with the F-Type's relaxed 70-150 mph pace due to weaker high speed push plus range anxiety, and the 10 year lifespan to scrap.
Why do you keep on mentioning high future electricity prices?
A substantial number of EV owners whom embrace it, have switched to solar panels and a number of solar panel charging station have been very successful. What crystal ball is telling you that?
Talking about 70-150Mph... is that on track? If so, it's a very limited usage scope so it's rather irrelevant.
Interesting post. Certainly electrics are not for me for all the reasons you stated.
I just heard that Jag may do a temporary shut-down due to Brexit issues, Trump issues and tariff (read tax) issues.
Jaguar,like Ford and GM must not have mirrors in their board-rooms.
They're blaming everyone but themselves.
Without the taxpayer's money for subsidies,Tesla cars wouldn't even exist.
Why do you keep on mentioning high future electricity prices?
A substantial number of EV owners whom embrace it, have switched to solar panels and a number of solar panel charging station have been very successful. What crystal ball is telling you that?
Talking about 70-150Mph... is that on track? If so, it's a very limited usage scope so it's rather irrelevant.
Last year our electricity rate went up 7%. The year before was 4%. With the EV population growing, places like California will be browned-out daily. It's going to be a nightmare for EV and non-EV users.
Yeah, in the western US, mid-triple digits are common and effortless. I cracked 160 mph in AZ without meaning to I was shooting for the in the 100-130 mph range with lots of company. I wish I was back in Europe, sometimes. I won't test top speed due to tires. EVs are generally underpowered on the top end, meaning 70+, and can't easily reach the more desolate areas, geographically. The few brave Teslas on our many sprawling highways are hyper-miling around 50-60 mph, which is 20-30mph under the posted limit, and frankly, a dangerous remote highway speed.
Exactly. And nukes look a litlle less promising as the Fukushima meltdown continues uncontained, with early indications it may be killing the entire Pacific Ocean, potentially killing most life on Earth. Thanks green energy!
This is hysterical over the top overreaction and not even partially true.
This is hysterical over the top overreaction and not even partially true.
Sometimes hysteria has a place in getting people involved. Look a little closer at what is happening. It's a terrifying situation. Younger people were never introduced to The China Syndrome.
Why do you keep on mentioning high future electricity prices?
A substantial number of EV owners whom embrace it, have switched to solar panels and a number of solar panel charging station have been very successful. What crystal ball is telling you that?
Talking about 70-150Mph... is that on track? If so, it's a very limited usage scope so it's rather irrelevant.
Solar panels aren't very cost effective in a vast portion of the U.S. Weather & vegetation (trees) rule it out for many on the East Coast. Certainly a good option in the Southwest. EV range is also a major concern for performance cars. It's bad enough that the F-Type only has a 120-150 mile range when hot-footing it through the twisties, but a "300 mile" Tesla will only get 30-40 miles at best before it coasts to a stop, and finding a Tesla Supercharger station in the Appalachians won't be easy.
Sometimes hysteria has a place in getting people involved. Look a little closer at what is happening. It's a terrifying situation. Younger people were never introduced to The China Syndrome.
The danger and fright of using nuclear power is close to hysterical. There are so many rumours and myths to the potential danger involved, that are miles aways from the facts.
Facts are many more people dies from coal mining, coal polution, gas poluting etc every WEEK than the sum of people that has died due to a nuclear meltdown sum total EVER in history.
The negative effects on nature by coal and oil mining and polution from this industri are so much worse than the total negative effect from the few nuclear accidents there have been, that they are negliesable in comparison.
That's the fact.
ps: I am not a fan of EVs, and I don't claim that nuclear power is without challenges.
But if we want to save nature and our way of living, nuclear power is the only solution today - in my humble opinion.
01-15-2019, 03:38 PM
