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Boeing 737 MAX

 
  #21  
Old 05-02-2019, 04:10 PM
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Boeing certainly is not without fault. They are imperfect people building imperfect aircraft. That being said, these aircraft should not have crashed.
Modern aircraft have many systems designed to make air travel faster, safer, and more efficient while reducing pilot workload, which improves safety. Boeing does all it can to achieve these goals, but they are not, and never will be, perfect.
Every system on an aircraft will have some degree of failure of some sort sooner or later. There is an army of people whose jobs are to prevent inflight problems. I was one of those people for 35 years. The pilot's job is to recognize the inflight failure and take appropriate action. That's why they make the big bucks and their training is incredibly important.
Boeing tries to give the pilots a solution to every problem, and there was one, as one flight crew demonstrated. The other flight crews should have taken the same action and landed safely.
We're back to flight crew training.
By example, a US based air carrier loses both engines on takeoff over New York City and everyone survives. A foreign air carrier loses one sensor and everyone dies. Twice.
It doesn't get more clear than that.
 
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  #22  
Old 05-25-2019, 01:55 AM
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Massively cherry picked example, false equivalence and half pike with twist.

Crew training? yeah , and manufacturers know that is variable around the world and some of them even utter phrases like its just the same as previous models, no need to be recertified.
 
  #23  
Old 05-25-2019, 05:18 PM
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Stu46H, my father in law used to work at Boeing and was part of their AOG group (the guys that fly to where the plane is to repair them when they are in no condition to fly). This problem is not limited to just the 737 MAX, or even the 737 line. IT is something that is seen over the whole airline industry. Those probes see very harsh circumstances and they are prone to freezing over, leading to erroneous readings. That is why the pilots get the training to deal with these frozen over probes. The issue with the 737 MAX planes is that they have "improved" the system such that even "turning off" the system, these probes still have an input to the flight of the plane. That is where things have gone awry. Not to mention that Boeing (to my understanding) knew about this exact situation and knew that it would be an issue and never told anyone and was secretly working on a fix that they were going to put out at some point in the near future. Had they done something as simple as write a letter that stated "when you see these conditions in the plane, they can be overcome by ......".

I think the real test is going to be what court rooms think about this as there are many airlines that are going after Boeing for lost income due to having to keep the planes grounded. Boeing walks away without having to pay a dime, then the law thinks they acted properly. If they end up paying out billions of dollars, well, they weren't so correct in their actions.
 
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Old 05-25-2019, 08:55 PM
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Good stuff.
I'd like to add to that post.
Probes are normally heated, but the heater can fail, so, yeah, a probe could become a popsicle and pilots need to know how to recognize and deal with that. It's what they get paid for.
If Boeing ends up paying lots of money, Boeing will not pay. Boeing customers will pay in higher costs for new aircraft, and the federal government is a big customer of Boeing, just like so many airlines worldwide.
Remember the big tobacco settlement? Cigarette prices spiked and have remained high. Guess who is paying for that settlement? People who purchase cigarettes.
And there is one thing that Boeing has in its favor above all else. It is extremely important to national security, so Boeing holds a special place in the eyes of our government.
It will be interesting to see what comes out of this, but I don't expect much.
If this was such a glaring defect, airplanes would be falling out of the sky all over the place, and they are not. Well trained domestic pilots seem to be able to handle it.
Airplanes are always being redesigned and improved so Boeing might say that this is just another step in that continuous journey rather than a defect.
Thermo, ask your father if he went to Newark airport to repair a PeopleExpress 737 in Hangar 14 in January 1986? Night shift retracted the nose gear in the hangar accidentally and did some significant structural damage. Luckily nobody was hurt or killed. The time clock was right by the nose gear and when I showed up for work in the morning I looked at the radome, walked over to it and put my hand on it while thinking that I should not be able to do this and figured that either I got a lot taller overnight, or the radome was much lower than it should be. I looked for the nose gear and didn't see it supporting the front of the airplane. It was one of those "Wow, look at that. Somebody had a bad night" moments and I'm still 6 feet tall.
A Boeing sheet metal team came to fix it. Those guys knew what they were doing.
 
  #25  
Old 05-26-2019, 03:57 PM
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Stu46H, I will have to ask him. That would have been right in the time frame that he would have been running around to the various planes and since he is a machinist, he would have been one of those doing the sheet metal repair. I just had one of those "oh wow" moments at work. Someone forgot to put out the outriggers before they went to pick up a load with a crane. Load shifted and the crane rotated and ended up with 2 wheels in the air and 2 still on the ground, leaning at a 45 degree list. the only thing that kept the crane from going all the way to its side is because it rotated, the counterweights hit the ground first and stopped the cranes movement. He got lucky. This happened just outside of my office and he could have very easily put it through the roof of my building.
 
  #26  
Old 06-01-2019, 12:01 PM
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One of the main problems is too much automation and not enough pilot training. Especially with foreign carriers. They want the airplane to fly itself. There was a landing crash in San Francisco due to the automatic landing system at the airport being out of service and the pilot didn't know how to land the airplane manually. The co pilot in the second crash had a total of 200 flight hours. Not just 200 hours in the 737. But 200 total in any airplane. I have known people that spent more that 200 hours just getting their private license. No substitute in knowing how to fly the airplane totally manually.
 
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Old 06-02-2019, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Thermo View Post
Stu46H, I will have to ask him. That would have been right in the time frame that he would have been running around to the various planes and since he is a machinist, he would have been one of those doing the sheet metal repair. I just had one of those "oh wow" moments at work. Someone forgot to put out the outriggers before they went to pick up a load with a crane. Load shifted and the crane rotated and ended up with 2 wheels in the air and 2 still on the ground, leaning at a 45 degree list. the only thing that kept the crane from going all the way to its side is because it rotated, the counterweights hit the ground first and stopped the cranes movement. He got lucky. This happened just outside of my office and he could have very easily put it through the roof of my building.
You will appreciate the German fork lift training video. It's funny and informative.
 
 
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