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  #41  
Old 08-31-2018, 04:23 PM
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I have to assume that airplane gyro's work very similar to the gyro's on a submarine. They spin at such a speed and have so little friction, that any movement of the object (ie, plane, sub, etc) causes the actual gyro to remain stationary and the sphere that the gyro is sitting in to move in relation. This relative motion is what the sensors use to determine the parameter it is trying to measure. In the case of the submarine, we had 3 gyros that worked in concert with each other. One for each axis (X, Y, and Z). By using these, we could get a GPS fix (establish exactly where we were) and then drive around for the next day or so, having the gyros tell the navigation computer how the sub was moving, and be relatively accurate on the next GPS update (normally within say 1,000 feet after traveling hundreds of miles).

If you want to have fun with a FE person, explain to them the basic law of motion that for every force, there is an equal and opposite force. With this being said, if the wind is pushing on a windmill, the windmill is pushing back equally hard on the earth. So, wouldn't this be changing how fast that the earth is spinning and therefore changing the length of a day? Think about that one for a minute. Put enough windmills on the earth, you could end up with a 23 hour day.

EZDriver, you hit them high, I will hit them low. I had a lot of fun during my time on a submarine. Did 20 years on them. Nothing like controlling the heat of the sun in the nuclear reactor for a living. Funny thing is, you probably got more radiation exposure in your plane than I did on the submarine.
 
  #42  
Old 09-01-2018, 10:52 AM
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Yes, I forgot that it was the Antarctic that you can't fly over. Somebody should have told Richard Byrd that in 1929 when he made the first flight to the south pole.
 

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  #43  
Old 09-01-2018, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Thermo View Post
I have to assume that airplane gyro's work very similar to the gyro's on a submarine. They spin at such a speed and have so little friction, that any movement of the object (ie, plane, sub, etc) causes the actual gyro to remain stationary and the sphere that the gyro is sitting in to move in relation. This relative motion is what the sensors use to determine the parameter it is trying to measure. In the case of the submarine, we had 3 gyros that worked in concert with each other. One for each axis (X, Y, and Z). By using these, we could get a GPS fix (establish exactly where we were) and then drive around for the next day or so, having the gyros tell the navigation computer how the sub was moving, and be relatively accurate on the next GPS update (normally within say 1,000 feet after traveling hundreds of miles).

If you want to have fun with a FE person, explain to them the basic law of motion that for every force, there is an equal and opposite force. With this being said, if the wind is pushing on a windmill, the windmill is pushing back equally hard on the earth. So, wouldn't this be changing how fast that the earth is spinning and therefore changing the length of a day? Think about that one for a minute. Put enough windmills on the earth, you could end up with a 23 hour day.

EZDriver, you hit them high, I will hit them low. I had a lot of fun during my time on a submarine. Did 20 years on them. Nothing like controlling the heat of the sun in the nuclear reactor for a living. Funny thing is, you probably got more radiation exposure in your plane than I did on the submarine.
Hey Thermo- talk to me about gyros. My theory is that gyros stay aligned with the forces of gravity. And since the force of gravity is always focused at the center of the earth gyros would always stay aligned with the center of the earth. In other words. If you have a gyro spinning and draw some reference line along two points on the gyro and the center of the earth that line will remain aligned with the center of the earth regardless as to where it is moved to. Even if it is moved to the other side of the earth it will still appear upright and the reference line will still go through the center of the earth.

Your comments please sir.
 
  #44  
Old 09-01-2018, 12:44 PM
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Might need an energy drink before you watch this.

 
  #45  
Old 09-01-2018, 02:30 PM
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EZdriver, looking into airplane gyros and how they differ from submarine gyros, the big thing that hits me is that airplane gyros are powered by a pressure differential (ie, cabin pressure to atmospheric pressure) that is generated by a small pump on the airplanes engine. Where in the sub, they use a small electric motor to spin them up and maintain speed. In the case of the SR-71, the gyros have to be "rebuilt" since there would be too large of a differential pressure between the inside and outside of the cabin and could actually cause the gyros to overspeed (the differential pressure is what spins the gyro). so, in the case of the SR-71, you would need to have a pressure pump on one side of the gyro system and a pressure regulator on the other so you can control the differential across the gryo, therefore controlling its speed.

As for why a gyro remains pointed in a certain direction, this really has to do with which way the gyro is pointed when it is spun up. The best evidence that I can give you is to get say a 26" mountain bike tire. Have one person hold the tire up and down (by the center shaft) and have another person spin the tire as fast as possible. Now, have the person holding the tire attempt to move the tire so it is laying down (like you would attempt to make it a big top). They won't be able to. What you have is centrifical force acting on the outside of the tire (where most of the weight is), attempting to rip the tire apart by having it fly apart. But, the strength of the tire/rim keeps it held together and going around in a circle. This force is much larger then what the person is applying when they attempt to change the position of the tire. Hence why the tire remains in the up and down position. Now, you will be able to have the person say move in a circle with the tire and will be able to do this with relative ease because the centrifical force is not being affected. it is still acting in the up and down direction, not in a left and right direction. This is why you will find multiple gyros if you need to measure different vectors (ie, not only up and down, but left and right, and/or forward and backwards). If you also note with sensitive gyros, they spin at insane speeds (40,000 RPM is not uncommon). This induces a lot of centrifical force into the spinning mass of the gyro, ensuring that it will not change direction when acted upon, keeping the reference point. YOu want to mess up a plane's gyro, start up a small plane with one wingtip touching the ground (the other high in the air). The gyro will take up a position that will be at say a 20 degree angle. You never see this because planes are started up on level ground. But, if you did, the gyros would be all messed up. We had to correct for this on the sub as the sub is never exactly level and even a tenth of a degree could mean big problems for us.
 
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  #46  
Old 09-01-2018, 05:57 PM
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Hmm Antarctica where the ****'s found their new home "New Swabia". Admiral Byrd and his fleet were defeated by the ****'s and forced to turn back. Operation Highjump as it is called. The war ended but the ****'s were not defeated.
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  #47  
Old 09-01-2018, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Thermo View Post
EZdriver, looking into airplane gyros and how they differ from submarine gyros, the big thing that hits me is that airplane gyros are powered by a pressure differential (ie, cabin pressure to atmospheric pressure) that is generated by a small pump on the airplanes engine. Where in the sub, they use a small electric motor to spin them up and maintain speed. In the case of the SR-71, the gyros have to be "rebuilt" since there would be too large of a differential pressure between the inside and outside of the cabin and could actually cause the gyros to overspeed (the differential pressure is what spins the gyro). so, in the case of the SR-71, you would need to have a pressure pump on one side of the gyro system and a pressure regulator on the other so you can control the differential across the gryo, therefore controlling its speed.

As for why a gyro remains pointed in a certain direction, this really has to do with which way the gyro is pointed when it is spun up. The best evidence that I can give you is to get say a 26" mountain bike tire. Have one person hold the tire up and down (by the center shaft) and have another person spin the tire as fast as possible. Now, have the person holding the tire attempt to move the tire so it is laying down (like you would attempt to make it a big top). They won't be able to. What you have is centrifical force acting on the outside of the tire (where most of the weight is), attempting to rip the tire apart by having it fly apart. But, the strength of the tire/rim keeps it held together and going around in a circle. This force is much larger then what the person is applying when they attempt to change the position of the tire. Hence why the tire remains in the up and down position. Now, you will be able to have the person say move in a circle with the tire and will be able to do this with relative ease because the centrifical force is not being affected. it is still acting in the up and down direction, not in a left and right direction. This is why you will find multiple gyros if you need to measure different vectors (ie, not only up and down, but left and right, and/or forward and backwards). If you also note with sensitive gyros, they spin at insane speeds (40,000 RPM is not uncommon). This induces a lot of centrifical force into the spinning mass of the gyro, ensuring that it will not change direction when acted upon, keeping the reference point. YOu want to mess up a plane's gyro, start up a small plane with one wingtip touching the ground (the other high in the air). The gyro will take up a position that will be at say a 20 degree angle. You never see this because planes are started up on level ground. But, if you did, the gyros would be all messed up. We had to correct for this on the sub as the sub is never exactly level and even a tenth of a degree could mean big problems for us.
Believe it or not, I understand this, it makes perfect sense to me!
I always wondered how gyros were used for navigation.
Thank you for this explanation!
(';')
 
  #48  
Old 09-01-2018, 07:18 PM
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LnrB, part of the useless knowledge that I have had to learn over the years. Amazing what you learn when you search out to learn something new each and every day.
 
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  #49  
Old 09-02-2018, 09:33 AM
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Airplane gyros for small airplane are of both types. In my airplane the attitude gyro is air pump powered. The other two, for herding and turn rate are electric. On military airplanes they are of course all electric. On the SR before GPS they used star tracking for navigation.
 
  #50  
Old 09-03-2018, 05:57 PM
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Thermo, how often were the gyros restarted? Seems like a sub would have the same condition as an airplane? This point still escapes me. As you round the earth isn't the gyro used for horizontal out of plane for the new long/lat? Isn't it still spinning flat to the place where it was started?

I'm still not understanding how the change in horizon is corrected as you follow the curve?
 

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  #51  
Old 09-04-2018, 12:12 PM
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wydopnthrtl, the gyros were only restated after the sub went through a maintenance period (about once a year). Other than that, they were always left on. Keep in mind that gravity acts straight down, towards the center of the earth. So, use the center of the earth as your reference point, not perpendicular to the ground (slight difference). Once you use this frame of reference, then your questions about why the gyros don't go out of cal as we round the earth will make more sense.

There are 3 gyros, one for each of the X, Y, and Z axis. These are very sensitive and detect down to tenths of a MPH and microscopic changes in direction. What actually throws the gyros off is the fact that the ocean currents push on the side of the sub and this pushes the whole sub in a slightly different direction than what is sensed by the gyros. Kinda liken it to standing on a big sheet of ice. While you are not moving, the ice is and therefore you are moving in relation to a fixed spot, even though you are not moving.
 
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Old 09-04-2018, 12:53 PM
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  #53  
Old 09-04-2018, 03:47 PM
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darren, that is too classic. What, did they smash it flat? If so, where did they put the creases?
 
  #54  
Old 09-05-2018, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Thermo View Post
wydopnthrtl, the gyros were only restated after the sub went through a maintenance period (about once a year). Other than that, they were always left on. Keep in mind that gravity acts straight down, towards the center of the earth. So, use the center of the earth as your reference point, not perpendicular to the ground (slight difference). Once you use this frame of reference, then your questions about why the gyros don't go out of cal as we round the earth will make more sense.

There are 3 gyros, one for each of the X, Y, and Z axis. These are very sensitive and detect down to tenths of a MPH and microscopic changes in direction. What actually throws the gyros off is the fact that the ocean currents push on the side of the sub and this pushes the whole sub in a slightly different direction than what is sensed by the gyros. Kinda liken it to standing on a big sheet of ice. While you are not moving, the ice is and therefore you are moving in relation to a fixed spot, even though you are not moving.
Thermo thanks for the feedback on how often they were restarted. As for how they work I already understand what you've stated. The whole point of simple gyros is to make fixed planes for a vehicles pitch,roll,yaw to be known at any point in time. Planes of reference for all other navigational instruments / gauges to use as a standard to measure against.

For gravity to have constant correction on all three gyros (XYZ) there would have to be a weight on them causing torque on multiple axis. Its called precession. & here is a link -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession#Torque-induced
Since they use precession to always correct for which direction is straight down... how does this prove they are operating on a globe? Gyros with precession work equally well on a flat plane with a downward pulling force like gravity or Tesla's Dynamic Theory of Gravity.

I hope you see why I'm asking this. I'm trying to find the proof in a globe shape. So far I'm just not seeing it in gyros. (I'm sure there are things I don't yet know)

EZDrivers account of pulling a slightly less than 1G is an excellent data point for flying over a curved shape.

Juat trying to understand it all
 

Last edited by wydopnthrtl; 09-05-2018 at 06:27 AM.
  #55  
Old 09-05-2018, 06:22 AM
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BTW, the "flat earth society" is a literal group. They are not the same thing as this latest resurgence in earth shape studies. In the last 3-4yrs there are people who (like me) are questioning all things and simply trying to find proofs of what we've been taught and assume to be true.
 
  #56  
Old 09-05-2018, 04:36 PM
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wydopnthrtl, I never got into the theory of why the system is built like it is. I honestly think that they are willing to accept a little bit of "inaccuracy" since the sub does not go that far around the earth at any given 24 hour period. Within that time ,we are resetting the system and re-establishing where in the earth we are (we are underwater at some point, not just on the surface). I was too busy pushing in the back of the submarine. LMAO. I needed to know just enough that if everyone up in the forward part of the boat disappeared, I could get us home. Nothing that a little bit of GPS coordinates won't tell me. Granted, if they all disappeared, odds are, we hit a mountain and getting home is low on the list. Staying afloat is the top priority.
 
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Old 09-06-2018, 04:27 AM
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I'm surprised that no one with a boat has chipped in on this thread?

Other than U-boats.

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  #58  
Old 09-06-2018, 06:40 AM
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My boat hasn't got a gyro but the ship I'm on does.
Actually, it had a new one fitted Sunday because the old one broke.
Going back to the dim and distant past when I was in navigation school I seem to remember that when a gyro rotor is up to speed the axis always points to one spot; we called it the gyro star and each gyro has it's 'own' star.
If you try and move the axis it will always try and return to point at it's own star.
Shipboard gyros only have an adjustment for latitude; other than routine servicing they are fit and forget, no adjustments needed.
 
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Old 09-07-2018, 09:04 PM
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Irrelevant, we are all nothing more than a biological power source for our digital overlords. Welcome to the matrix.
 
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  #60  
Old 09-07-2018, 09:16 PM
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Thanks for the replies. It's food for thought.
 

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