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#metoo era to avoid women at all costs

 
  #21  
Old 12-07-2018, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Jayt2 View Post
The sea level is expected to rise about 100 ft, from men sweating waiting for the "other shoe" to drop
We all have choices.

Perspire a lot and (from the article) "avoid women at all costs". That's one approach.


Or.....(also from the article)

"Finally, he landed on the solution: “Just try not to be an *******.”

That’s pretty much the bottom line, said Ron Biscardi, chief executive officer of Context Capital Partners. “It’s really not that hard.”


I've been doing some browsing and I see, frankly, an awful lot of sentiment from men that seems either A) cowardly or B) as vindictive as the behavior that they proclaim to be railing against.

"We're SO afraid of getting in trouble and we feel SO threatened that we've decided it's safer to just avoid women".

Or.....

"We can no longer associate with women purely on our terms. As a result we're so pissed-off that we're gonna shun them"


IMO, there are some men out there who need to "man up" a bit.

Cheers
DD









 
  #22  
Old 12-07-2018, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by SinF View Post
You also fail to consider that another end result will be false accusations.
Incorrect. I did consider it, and said as much.

My words from the same posting


"Also equally likely is that certain opportunistic women, surely a very tiny percentage in the grand scheme of things, will use the the impetus of the movement as a convenient segue to false claims and/or vindictiveness. Mark my words, they were opportunistic and vindictive before the Me Too movement. But, the movement gives them an easier path."


Cheers
DD
 
  #23  
Old 12-07-2018, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by XJ8JR View Post
Let's be honest...the only reason this movement has taken on such traction recently is because it basically became a popularity contest on the internet, just like everything else.

Let's be honest and agree that that is your opinion of the situation


just like all the other stupid fads and "challenges" that pop up.

I'm sure there are plenty of women who don't consider it a stupid fad.

True, though, that with any group, cause, movement, political party, religion, club, organization...whatever....there will always be a segment latching on who cast the group in a poor light. So in that respect you're right about the "Me Too" moniker.

That's not to say that there isn't true harassment and abuse. But how do you suppose a victim who has endured a true injustice feels when somebody cries "Me Too!" after an innocent hug from the opposite sex went on a little longer than usual? Similar to how a war veteran with real PTSD feels when some celebrity checks into rehab for "PTSD" due to "emotional stress".
And the cure for this would be, what? Stop advocating for better treatment of PTSD sufferers? Ridicule PTSD support groups? Shun all PTSD sufferers?

Physical and verbal sexual harassment and abuse is wrong and has always been wrong, and its appropriate that many of these men are finally paying for it, but I take offense when something so serious is degraded and belittled

I hear ya. Just don;t throw the baby out with the bathwater!

and used to further attack what little remains of masculinity in this country.

Ahhh.......

A nerve being struck here? Are we getting to the real heart of the matter?

Cheers
DD
 
  #24  
Old 12-07-2018, 04:51 PM
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Ok
 
  #25  
Old 12-07-2018, 06:48 PM
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Guys don't get how bad it can be at work when you're a woman and working with creepy guys. I worked at a great company that I respect immensely to this day, but had to leave because of a manager. There was too much stacked against me to actually try to fix the problem, and he gave me a garbage review that trashed any chances to move internally. Only an idiot with a termination wish goes to a human resources person. I left and let it go. I'm bitter about it still. Mine was just sexual harassment and discrimination, not assault or rape. The deck is stacked even more against that. Keep in mind that I'm a gay (but not loud about it) female software engineer who had has always worked in manufacturing IT; I have a thick skin, it takers a lot more than a nice **** comment to even unsettle me.

I get that the pendulum has swung too far the other way, but for every false report, there's still at least dozens of women letting it go. That said, I am very much for making proven to be false reports carry criminal penalties as stuff as the crime; they get put on a sex offenders registry and serve 2-6 years in prison.

​​​​​
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  #26  
Old 12-07-2018, 07:00 PM
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Going to chime in here (and try very hard to remember this isn't the Pirate)...

I agree that this #metoo ***** will eventually taper off, and that it may even have the desired effect of turning some cads into something a bit closer to a gentleman but, in the meantime, I also see it ruining some *GOOD MEN because they happened to make the mistake of "poking" crazy (or worse....evil). As it stands now an accusation is ALL that is needed, no proof, no due process, simply an allegation and a few crocodile tears and an otherwise good *MAN is reduced to a shamed, shunned and labeled new addition to a homeless camp. Can anyone explain how this is in any way, shape, or form acceptable (oh and it has to be a logical explanation)? Yeah....didn't think so.

* Capitalized for those that feel testosterone along with the twig and berries are a shortcoming..... Yes, a nerve was struck. You see, in the beginning God created Man and Woman.... fast forward a few millennia and a good mother and/or father created a gentleman and/or a lady with distinct characteristics for each. A woman is to be respected and revered as she can do something that no man will EVER accomplish and that is to grow a new life within herself then deliver it into the world and continue to care for said life. Men (or rather most men) are designed to be protective (millennial definition - aggressive), to provide (millennial definition - sexist), and to help prepare that new life for the world (millennial definition - misogynistic child abuser). Sorry if this offends...no, on second thought I'm not, as offense is something that can only be taken (i.e. one chooses to be offended). Sure, some lines have blurred a little (my son serves with some fine female soldiers who he absolutely trusts with his life) but as a whole I feel we are still genetically "hardwired" based on chromosomal make up.
Editorial disclaimer: I generally only fling poo on one particular forum but this subject, and certain comments/opinions, coupled with the way that they were phrased "triggered" me (the bourbon might have a little to do with it as well), Mods feel free to edit/delete if found to be too combative or out of line.
 

Last edited by Celticblood; 12-07-2018 at 07:15 PM. Reason: Upon reflection, a poor word choice
  #27  
Old 12-07-2018, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by 80sRule View Post
Guys don't get how bad it can be at work when you're a woman and working with creepy guys. I worked at a great company that I respect immensely to this day, but had to leave because of a manager. There was too much stacked against me to actually try to fix the problem, and he gave me a garbage review that trashed any chances to move internally. Only an idiot with a termination wish goes to a human resources person. I left and let it go. I'm bitter about it still. Mine was just sexual harassment and discrimination, not assault or rape. The deck is stacked even more against that. Keep in mind that I'm a gay (but not loud about it) female software engineer who had has always worked in manufacturing IT; I have a thick skin, it takers a lot more than a nice **** comment to even unsettle me.

I get that the pendulum has swung too far the other way, but for every false report, there's still at least dozens of women letting it go. That said, I am very much for making proven to be false reports carry criminal penalties as stuff as the crime; they get put on a sex offenders registry and serve 2-6 years in prison.

​​​​​
​​​​
Herein lies the rub
Exactly, well said!!!
The world is turning, eventually parents will once again try to teach wrong from right (based on the MODERN world) and the jackasses will fade away (hopefully).
 
  #28  
Old 12-07-2018, 08:39 PM
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Like a lot of social justice movements, the fact that something is hard to prove was compensated for by making it too easy to "prove". The solution in the workplace ended up being a culture where a competent HR rep when confronted with a discrimination or sexual assault claim will follow every procedure to the letter, and only in extreme cases find fault, and will absolutely work to get the complaint filer let go within a year along with who they complained about (if there was no "finding" but evidence they're trouble is found) for obviously unrelated job performance reasons. HR never was an employee advocate group, but they're going harder and harder towards the Stalin risk mitigation approach of "no person, no problem".

The system is broken. Metoo is fostering the creation of a new and just as broken system. It's like compensating for racism against non white people by being racist only towards white people.
 
  #29  
Old 12-07-2018, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Celticblood View Post
Going to chime in here (and try very hard to remember this isn't the Pirate)...

I agree that this #metoo ***** will eventually taper off, and that it may even have the desired effect of turning some cads into something a bit closer to a gentleman
Right !

but, in the meantime, I also see it ruining some *GOOD MEN because they happened to make the mistake of "poking" crazy (or worse....evil).
Mistakes often have consequences, yes.

Some men...we've all probably known a few....carry all their brains in one part of their body. They cross lines and play with fire......and they darn well know it. No sympathy for them. Their 'mistake' is behaving like an ***, usually year after year after year, until it catches up with them. Now women are finding their voices and more men are being called out.

I have sympathy for those falsely accused and punished (legally or socially). I have have sympathy for those suffer from punishment, whatever the form, that lacks proportionality. Not all offenses are equally bad.

But, again, lets keep chronology in mind. This is not something that began with the Me Too movement.

As it stands now an accusation is ALL that is needed, no proof, no due process, simply an allegation and a few crocodile tears and an otherwise good *MAN is reduced to a shamed, shunned and labeled new addition to a homeless camp.
And thanks to publicized cases of false stories this situation is being reversed....where the words of the accuser are not summarily accepted as true.

Can anyone explain how this is in any way, shape, or form acceptable (oh and it has to be a logical explanation)? Yeah....didn't think so.
Nobody here has even suggested that is is acceptable.... so don't pat yourself on the back too much

* Capitalized for those that feel testosterone along with the twig and berries are a shortcoming.....
Who would that be?

Yes, a nerve was struck. You see, in the beginning God created Man and Woman.... fast forward a few millennia and a good mother and/or father created a gentleman and/or a lady with distinct characteristics for each. A woman is to be respected and revered as she can do something that no man will EVER accomplish and that is to grow a new life within herself then deliver it into the world and continue to care for said life. Men (or rather most men) are designed to be protective (millennial definition - aggressive), to provide (millennial definition - sexist), and to help prepare that new life for the world (millennial definition - misogynistic child abuser). Sorry if this offends...no, on second thought I'm not, as offense is something that can only be taken (i.e. one chooses to be offended).
No offence taken.... but no relevance seen, either. What's your point?

Does the man's role as protector entitle him to harass women? Does the woman's role as caretaker mean she must tolerate harassment in silence?


Sure, some lines have blurred a little (my son serves with some fine female soldiers who he absolutely trusts with his life) but as a whole I feel we are still genetically "hardwired" based on chromosomal make up.

As society changes so does expected behavior thus we've overpowered many of our hardwired impulses. We started off in the caves beating each other over the head and now have civilized society with much higher standards. This is why we strive, to use your example, to convert 'cads' into 'gentlemen'. The difference between a cad and a gentlemen didn't exist a million years ago. Now it does, and (most) everyone agrees that being a cad is bad and being a gentleman is good. If a man feels 'hardwired' to behave like a cad then we (well, most of us) expect him to stop. Some men might feel their masculinity, or their role as protector, is simultaneously being diminished in the process. In those cases I have to wonder if their grip on either characteristic is as strong as they think it is.

Editorial disclaimer: I generally only fling poo on one particular forum but this subject, and certain comments/opinions, coupled with the way that they were phrased "triggered" me (the bourbon might have a little to do with it as well), Mods feel free to edit/delete if found to be too combative or out of line.
Combative? Out of line? Not hardly. Just more fodder for the discussion. I'm holed-up in the house for the day

Cheers
DD
 
  #30  
Old 12-07-2018, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by 80sRule View Post
Like a lot of social justice movements, the fact that something is hard to prove was compensated for by making it too easy to "prove". The solution in the workplace ended up being a culture where a competent HR rep when confronted with a discrimination or sexual assault claim will follow every procedure to the letter, and only in extreme cases find fault, and will absolutely work to get the complaint filer let go within a year along with who they complained about (if there was no "finding" but evidence they're trouble is found) for obviously unrelated job performance reasons. HR never was an employee advocate group, but they're going harder and harder towards the Stalin risk mitigation approach of "no person, no problem".

The system is broken. Metoo is fostering the creation of a new and just as broken system. It's like compensating for racism against non white people by being racist only towards white people.

Similar conversations are taking place with respect to criminal justice and elsewhere.

In the 80s and 90s we went down the road of 'three strikes' laws and arbitrary minimum sentences, and so forth. Popular at the time but now we realize that some of those things are backfiring and we're trying to undo them, at least partially.

Same for 'zero-tolerance' policies in schools and workplaces ....which remove common-sense and proportionality from the conversation. I put some of the blame on opportunistic lawyers and victims.

But, also, we can put some blame on ourselves. It's not sufficient to be angry or concerned; you must be 'outraged'.

We're no longer merely slighted, ignored, mistreated, snubbed, passed-over, or offended. These have been replaced by "My rights have been violated"

We no longer have disagreements but, instead, have 'war'. The war on women. The war on civil rights. The war on religion. The war on xxx-amendment rights.

We'd all do well to settle our problems with a lot less melodrama.

Cheers
DD

 
  #31  
Old 12-07-2018, 10:37 PM
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I've read the posts and to those who believe some are overreacting. I simply say I hope it never happens to you. Yes I take each situation, and person man, or women for what it is, and who they are. I'm not afraid of women, but I do use more caution, until I know them, and even then I'am still watchful of everything I say and do. It's definitely not because I'm a cad, or a lousy sexist SOB. It's simply because I've seen several instances of it, and how it has ruined several lives. Where there was no reason to. "Guilty" till proven innocent. They lost Jobs, Wives, Relationships, etc. One man I worked with was forced to retire, almost losing his pension after 30+ years. He simply was nice to "her" at a company dinner, and even with several witnesses in his favor, the "company" didn't want to fight a sexual harassment lawsuit in court. So they "asked" the man to retire, or lose his pension completely. So don't say there no reason to fear this, "ME TOO" movement. Because it is there and it does happen. As I said, I hope it never happens to you. Just my thoughts

Jack
 
  #32  
Old 12-08-2018, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by 89 Jacobra View Post
I've read the posts and to those who believe some are overreacting.
"Avoid women at all costs" is the title of the article linked in the first posting of this thread. You don't think that's an overreaction? I do. .

You've read Takeo's postings. Do you think he is overreating? I do.


I simply say I hope it never happens to you. Yes I take each situation, and person man, or women for what it is, and who they are. I'm not afraid of women, but I do use more caution, until I know them, and even then I'am still watchful of everything I say and do.
I'm betting a lot of women who have tolerated harassment wish that more men would do as you do: be more careful and watchful about what you do and say.

I'm watchful and careful to treat and speak to women as I would want my daughters to be treated and spoken to. That's the standard I took up a long time ago.. It's no hardship.

No woman has ever given me reason to think that standard was too much or too little. Maybe I'm just lucky?

There are many reasons/motivations to be watchful and careful about how you speak and behave. You can be watchful and careful because you're apprehensive of the consequences if you aren't , such as being rebuffed, reprimanded, ridiculed, embarrassed, or ashamed. Or as protection against becoming the victim of a false allegation. Or because you don't want women to think you're a boorish creep. Or simply because that's just the manner of conduct you've decided is best. Or....you pick the reason. No matter how you slice it I'm hard pressed to think of how being watchful and careful is a bad thing.

In a perfect world we'd always do the right things for only the right reasons. When that isn't possible, doing the right thing for any reason isn't half bad.


It's definitely not because I'm a cad, or a lousy sexist SOB. It's simply because I've seen several instances of it, and how it has ruined several lives. Where there was no reason to. "Guilty" till proven innocent. They lost Jobs, Wives, Relationships, etc. One man I worked with was forced to retire, almost losing his pension after 30+ years. He simply was nice to "her" at a company dinner, and even with several witnesses in his favor, the "company" didn't want to fight a sexual harassment lawsuit in court. So they "asked" the man to retire, or lose his pension completely.
We've all seen it happen, or heard of it.


So don't say there no reason to fear this, "ME TOO" movement.

Who here has said that?


Because it is there and it does happen. As I said, I hope it never happens to you. Just my thoughts
I hope it never happens to me as well.

Cheers
DD
 

Last edited by Doug; 12-08-2018 at 12:02 AM.
  #33  
Old 12-08-2018, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug View Post
Incorrect. I did consider it, and said as much.

My words from the same posting


"Also equally likely is that certain opportunistic women, surely a very tiny percentage in the grand scheme of things, will use the the impetus of the movement as a convenient segue to false claims and/or vindictiveness. Mark my words, they were opportunistic and vindictive before the Me Too movement. But, the movement gives them an easier path."


Cheers
DD
You are right, you did consider it.

Why are you sure it is a very tiny percentage? Also, what percentage of innocent lives destroyed is acceptable to you?
 
  #34  
Old 12-08-2018, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by 80sRule View Post
Guys don't get how bad it can be at work when you're a woman and working with creepy guys. I worked at a great company that I respect immensely to this day, but had to leave because of a manager. There was too much stacked against me to actually try to fix the problem, and he gave me a garbage review that trashed any chances to move internally. Only an idiot with a termination wish goes to a human resources person. I left and let it go. I'm bitter about it still. Mine was just sexual harassment and discrimination, not assault or rape. The deck is stacked even more against that. Keep in mind that I'm a gay (but not loud about it) female software engineer who had has always worked in manufacturing IT; I have a thick skin, it takers a lot more than a nice **** comment to even unsettle me.

I get that the pendulum has swung too far the other way, but for every false report, there's still at least dozens of women letting it go. That said, I am very much for making proven to be false reports carry criminal penalties as stuff as the crime; they get put on a sex offenders registry and serve 2-6 years in prison.

​​​​​
​​​​
What happened to you is awful, I am sorry you had to go through it and nobody deserves this. However, unlike 80s we now have James-bond level of technology that allows anyone to record video and audio without any effort. If you are getting harassed in today's workplace, you could have irrefutable proof without much effort.

I fully agree with you that false accusations do not currently carry sufficient negative consequences to discourage opportunists from using theses as a weapon. How is false bomb threat any different from false rape accusation?
 
  #35  
Old 12-08-2018, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug View Post
...I'm watchful and careful to treat and speak to women as I would want my daughters to be treated and spoken to. That's the standard I took up a long time ago.. It's no hardship.
I've worked for/with guys who behaved in that manner and they are/were a Delight! Mutual Respect rules in those cases. Who could rightly have a problem with that?!
(';')
 
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  #36  
Old 12-08-2018, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by LnrB View Post
I've worked for/with guys who behaved in that manner and they are/were a Delight! Mutual Respect rules in those cases. Who could rightly have a problem with that?!
Somebody dishonest and with ill intentions in mind? In the age of #MeToo simply behaving courteous and professional at all times is not enough to ensure you are not accused.

For example, old geezer makes a harmless joke and get accused of harassment: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...ssment/559760/

Even if you are found innocent your career is over. Nobody would want to touch you, as you are seen as liability, another data point for class-action lawyers to point to, constructing "hostile work environment" narrative. It is not unlike being labeled Communist during McCarthy era.

How could anyone defend themselves against this happening other than never be around, never work with, and never talk to women in any professional setting?
 

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  #37  
Old 12-08-2018, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by SinF View Post

Why are you sure it is a very tiny percentage?

A conclusion drawn from observation.

I've been regularly employed since 1977, working for several companies in three different states; there was never a case of false accusation at any of them.

I've known numerous people, men and women, who were either perpetrators of, or victims of, drunk driving, larceny, adultery, spousal abuse, and other assorted crimes or bad behaviors. I have personally known two people sent to prison for murder. Yet, out of all this, in my entire life I have known only one man being falsely accused of sexual harassment, circa 1994. I have never known even one woman who falsely accused a man of sexual harassment/misconduct.

Discussion with friends and family members reveal similar observations.




Also, what percentage of innocent lives destroyed is acceptable to you?
What are you suggesting in asking that question?

The answer is 'none', the same as it would be for people falsely accused of any crime or bad behavior. But the only way to ensure that there is never a false allegation is to prohibit all allegations.

To draw an extreme illustration, we have people wrongly imprisoned (or even executed) for murder and rape, which is unbelievably tragic. This could be totally prevented by decriminalizing murder and rape, or by never allowing an allegation of murder or rape to be put forth. I don't think any of us would find those to be acceptable fixes. That would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater,

We can, however, put accusations of sexual harassment or abuse under more scrutiny...which I believe has already been happening....and offer more protections for the accused.

In civilized society we constantly strive for better behavior via legislation and/or social change. Finding the right balances can be difficult, sometimes excruciating, yet we keep trying.

Cheers
DD














 
  #38  
Old 12-08-2018, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug View Post
But the only way to ensure that there is never a false allegation is to prohibit all allegations.
You fail to consider why false allegations are so damaging. This is because due process is absent. Today, sexual harassment allegations are viewed as sufficient to establish guilt. Not in criminal sense, in societal sense. This is a consequence of false narratives of "rape culture" and "trust the victim".

Imagine if murder was prosecuted the following way - arrest, electric chair, trial, then if acquitted during trial you get posthumous exoneration. It is like that with sexual harassment in the era of #MeToo.

 
  #39  
Old 12-08-2018, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by SinF View Post
You fail to consider why false allegations are so damaging.

Why do you keep insisting that I've failed to consider something?

Is there something in my pattern of commentary that suggests I blurt out thoughts without consideration?

I'd be grateful if you were less presumptuous.


This is because due process is absent. Today, sexual harassment allegations are viewed as sufficient to establish guilt. Not in criminal sense, in societal sense. This is a consequence of false narratives of "rape culture" and "trust the victim".

And this is changing, as it should.


Imagine if murder was prosecuted the following way - arrest, electric chair, trial, then if acquitted during trial you get posthumous exoneration. It is like that with sexual harassment in the era of #MeToo.
It would be wrong, obviously. I've never suggested otherwise.

Cheers
DD
 
  #40  
Old 12-08-2018, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug View Post
Why do you keep insisting that I've failed to consider something?
Because I am giving you the benefit of the doubt. Alternative, is that you considered it and made an appalling moral judgment.

I will be less presumptuous from now on.
 

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