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#metoo era to avoid women at all costs

  #41  
Old 12-08-2018, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by SinF View Post
Somebody dishonest and with ill intentions in mind?

There's always the risk of coming across someone like that, yes

In the age of #MeToo simply behaving courteous and professional at all times is not enough to ensure you are not accused.
The risk pre-dates the Me Too age (which is only about 12-14 months old) by decades

For example, old geezer makes a harmless joke and get accused of harassment: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...ssment/559760/

Even if you are found innocent your career is over. Nobody would want to touch you, as you are seen as liability, another data point for class-action lawyers to point to, constructing "hostile work environment" narrative. It is not unlike being labeled Communist during McCarthy era.
I've read the article and see no evidence that the old geezers career is over. In fact I think he's rather enjoying the debate. However, I acknowledge that ruination is possible and does occur. I don't dismiss it as inconsequential.

One thing the article (which, BTW, isn't a matter of false allegation) does show evidence of is individuals and entities trying to come to grips with the issues at hand, including perceptions, policies, proportionality. Trying to do better, trying to find a better balance.

How could anyone defend themselves against this happening other than never be around, never work with, and never talk to women in any professional setting?
How strong of a guarantee are you seeking? 100% ? Should men be SO risk-averse (Ok, I'll say it---paranoid) that they'd consider completely removing themselves from women, or removing women from themselves? "Avoid women at all costs"?

Do men (or women) typically expect that level of assurance on anything?

Personally, I have no expectation of anything in life being 100% risk free. And, also personally, I don't feel inordinately threatened by women or the MeToo movement. But that's just me, I reckon

Cheers
DD






 
  #42  
Old 12-08-2018, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug View Post
Why do you keep insisting that I've failed to consider something?

Is there something in my pattern of commentary that suggests I blurt out thoughts without consideration?

I'd be grateful if you were less presumptuous.

Cheers
DD
Hey Doug, I don't really think he's trying to be presumptuous. You have a way of taking what someone has said, and picking it apart. Quoting little bits of the whole conversation. Very similar to what the Jehovah Witnesses do to the Scriptures. You can take bits, and pieces of a conversation, and change the whole meaning of something, just by leaving out a key part, which brings the message into context / complete understanding, of what the individual is "actually" trying to say. Maybe you should have been a "Lawyer"?, as they are very practiced at this, as are you. Please know, I don't mean this disrespectfully, in anyway shape or form, I have read, and followed several conversations with you over the years, and quite enjoy our conversations, even if I don't always agree with you, I still respect your opinions, and views. But maybe you can see why he is trying to defend what he said.

Jack
 
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  #43  
Old 12-08-2018, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by 89 Jacobra View Post
Hey Doug, I don't really think he's trying to be presumptuous. You have a way of taking what someone has said, and picking it apart. Quoting little bits of the whole conversation. Very similar to what the Jehovah Witnesses do to the Scriptures. You can take bits, and pieces of a conversation, and change the whole meaning of something, just by leaving out a key part, which brings the message into context / complete understanding, of what the individual is "actually" trying to say. Maybe you should have been a "Lawyer"?, as they are very practiced at this, as are you. Please know, I don't mean this disrespectfully, in anyway shape or form, I have read, and followed several conversations with you over the years, and quite enjoy our conversations, even if I don't always agree with you, I still respect your opinions, and views. But maybe you can see why he is trying to defend what he said.

Jack

Duly noted and point taken.

Let me try to explain.

If we were all having a face to face conversation ....as pals sitting in a pub, let's say....we probably wouldn't converse in full paragraphs. We'd more likely make singular statements and each statement would bring about a response...which would bring about more statements and responses. The "give-and-take" of discussion.

In written discussion we often include several points/thoughts/statements in a single posting. I try to respond to each of them as though we were having a face-to-face discussion. I'm not intending to distort the conversation or appear lawyer-ish .....but I can see how it might be perceived as such.

For better or worse, somewhere along the line it became somewhat ingrained in me to break problems and solutions down into component parts ......and that obviously has filtered down to my manner of discussion. I'm pretty sure it comes from my mother, who was very analytical. But that's another story.

I'll try to do better but I'm a rather old dog.

Cheers
DD

 
  #44  
Old 12-08-2018, 04:11 PM
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Gotcha, Yeah "us" old dogs are sometimes harder to retrain. Doesn't mean we're wrong. Sometimes we're just not politically correct. AWWW Screw Politics!
 
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  #45  
Old 12-08-2018, 11:59 PM
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I recall back when I was working , probably around mid 2000s, I was asked by a female colleague to joing an organisation called Women in IT as a mentor for young women climbing the ladder in IT. I declined as it felt like a weird proposal and I had my hands full with my own people without getting involved with anything else. These days I would have just burst out laughing and gone with the "are you kidding " response.

On the other hand I have a lot to do , in an extremely platonic way, with women in our local car club. They are generally older , more robust people, who give as good as they get and say what the mean.
 
  #46  
Old 12-09-2018, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug View Post
The risk pre-dates the Me Too age (which is only about 12-14 months old) by decades
The risk of getting falsely accused does predate #MeToo, however, in the modern, much more connected, much more "internet never forgets", much more "social media mob" world it is infinitely mode damaging.

Do you think it is possible to recover for a 20s-40s man from "she said, he said" social media accusation?
 
  #47  
Old 12-09-2018, 02:29 AM
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Originally Posted by SinF View Post
The risk of getting falsely accused does predate #MeToo, however, in the modern, much more connected, much more "internet never forgets", much more "social media mob" world it is infinitely mode damaging.

Do you think it is possible to recover for a 20s-40s man from "she said, he said" social media accusation?

Modern day social media can undeniably make things worse for the accused. Straying for a quick second I'll say that social media has become a weapon for many people, beyond just sexual harassment cases.

Possible to recover from a social media accusation? Maybe, maybe not. It would depend on many factors, wouldn't it? Not the least of which is the depth and breadth of the accused's media footprint.

However, backlash over the years...fueled by false accusations being revealed, and cases such as the Rolling Stone debacle, and presently culminating with resistance towards the Me too Movement... has given birth to increased awareness of, and intolerance of, false allegations. If someone is accused of sexual harassment/misconduct today I'm pretty sure that allegations will be viewed with greater circumspection than, let's say, five years ago. The shoe is being put on the other foot.

We may be edging closer to homeostasis where we safeguard against false allegations and have fewer men behaving badly.

Cheers
DD

Cheers
DD

 
  #48  
Old 12-09-2018, 02:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug View Post
How strong of a guarantee are you seeking? 100% ? Should men be SO risk-averse (Ok, I'll say it---paranoid) that they'd consider completely removing themselves from women, or removing women from themselves? "Avoid women at all costs"?

Do men (or women) typically expect that level of assurance on anything?

Since SinF declined to answer I'll throw it out to all.

Thoughts on this?

Anyone?

Cheers
DD
 
  #49  
Old 12-09-2018, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug View Post
Since SinF declined to answer I'll throw it out to all.

Thoughts on this?

Anyone?

Cheers
DD
*Nothing* in life is 100% a sure thing except Death and Taxes.
If a man (or woman) has a long standing reputation of Respectful, Professional interaction with others (of either gender), the sudden accusation of this sort of behavior will carry far less weight than if that same person (of either gender) has a less than upstanding reputation in these matters ("steer clear of that one, s/he's handsy").

There's a Huge difference between light-hearted banter in the work/business place and someone (of either gender) salivating, leering and/or undressing the other with their eyes, making lewd remarks or rude noises. One is quite harmless (to most) and even enjoyable to a point while the other can be downright dangerous.

To complicate matters, there are always bystanders not involved in these exchanges but overhearing them, who take offense, perhaps unjustified, that this person said that to the other person. Too often, rather than inquire if one is offended by remarks of the other and act accordingly, they go off and tattle to The Boss and all hell breaks loose.

More of those Unintended Consequences.

Upon further reflection, it's possible those men with whom I did business for so long and suddenly wouldn't deal with me anymore, might have been under pressure from Higher Up, who perhaps had skeletons in Their closets and reason to lay awake nights.
(';')
 

Last edited by LnrB; 12-09-2018 at 12:54 PM.
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  #50  
Old 12-09-2018, 12:58 PM
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I didn't answer Doug's question because it is a distraction and misdirection. How likely are one to die young these days? Not very likely, but people still buy term life insurance.

Personally, I'd rather get falsely accused of murder than get falsely accused of rape. At least after murder accusations I can get to a trial and have a fair shot of putting it all behind me when it is finished. Socially, with murder accusations I can count on presumption of innocence, and my past non-criminal conduct being taken into account. Getting acquitted of murder is unlikely to damage my career, aside from making getting Top Secret clearance harder.

With accusations of rape you are automatically guilty, and people that end up mobbing you have no idea (and don't care to get an idea) what kind of person you are. There is almost no social presumption of innocence in these types of situations. If it ever goes to trial and your acquitted, it isn't because you are innocent, but because system failed the rape victim. I feel sorry for men going through college during #MeToo era. Title IX process is a kangaroo court, and feminists are pushing hard to normalize that miscarriage of justice into criminal justice system.

Doug, throughout this thread you systematically downplayed the severity and magnitude of the problem. Perhaps because this problem isn't as acute in your age bracket. Perhaps because you consider this a temporary phenomenon and acceptable price to pay. However, I am tired of you trying to portray a bullet hole to the head as a minor nosebleed. No, if you got one of these you are unlikely to be fine. You are either f***ed or F***ed. There isn't a third option.
 

Last edited by SinF; 12-09-2018 at 01:18 PM.
  #51  
Old 12-09-2018, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by SinF View Post
I didn't answer Doug's question because it is a distraction and misdirection.
Look at the at the title of this thread and the title of the article linked in the original post.

After all this hashing-out I think it's perfectly appropriate to return to square one and ask if "Avoid Women At All Costs" is the answer.

Call it a distraction if you wish


However, I am tired of you trying to portray a bullet hole to the head as a minor nosebleed.
You're free to disregard my postings !

If you're convinced that the only way to avoid a bullet hole in the head is to avoid women at all costs (are you?), that's your prerogative.

Cheers
DD

 
  #52  
Old 12-09-2018, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by SinF View Post

Personally, I'd rather get falsely accused of murder than get falsely accused of rape. At least after murder accusations I can get to a trial and have a fair shot of putting it all behind me when it is finished. Socially, with murder accusations I can count on presumption of innocence, and my past non-criminal conduct being taken into account. Getting acquitted of murder is unlikely to damage my career, aside from making getting Top Secret clearance harder.

With accusations of rape you are automatically guilty, and people that end up mobbing you have no idea (and don't care to get an idea) what kind of person you are. There is almost no social presumption of innocence in these types of situations. If it ever goes to trial and your acquitted, it isn't because you are innocent, but because system failed the rape victim. I feel sorry for men going through college during #MeToo era. Title IX process is a kangaroo court, and feminists are pushing hard to normalize that miscarriage of justice into criminal justice system.

So, how do we fix this?

Criminalize false allegations? Seems reasonable to me, at least on the face of it.

Cheers
DD
 
  #53  
Old 12-09-2018, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by LnrB View Post
*Nothing* in life is 100% a sure thing except Death and Taxes.
If a man (or woman) has a long standing reputation of Respectful, Professional interaction with others (of either gender), the sudden accusation of this sort of behavior will carry far less weight than if that same person (of either gender) has a less than upstanding reputation in these matters ("steer clear of that one, s/he's handsy").

There's a Huge difference between light-hearted banter in the work/business place and someone (of either gender) salivating, leering and/or undressing the other with their eyes, making lewd remarks or rude noises. One is quite harmless (to most) and even enjoyable to a point while the other can be downright dangerous.

To complicate matters, there are always bystanders not involved in these exchanges but overhearing them, who take offense, perhaps unjustified, that this person said that to the other person. Too often, rather than inquire if one is offended by remarks of the other and act accordingly, they go off and tattle to The Boss and all hell breaks loose.

More of those Unintended Consequences.

Upon further reflection, it's possible those men with whom I did business for so long and suddenly wouldn't deal with me anymore, might have been under pressure from Higher Up, who perhaps had skeletons in Their closets and reason to lay awake nights.
(';')

Mrs LnrB. You Dear Lady are a very sage, and wise Lady. You understand this situation better then most. I believe it would be an absolute pleasure to know you, other then just on a forum, as You see the World, and People for who and what they are, and treat them as such. Truly a Class Lady. Just My Thoughts.

Jack
 
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  #54  
Old 12-09-2018, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by LnrB View Post
*Nothing* in life is 100% a sure thing except Death and Taxes.

That's the conventional wisdom but apparently there's burgeoning desire for that 100% assurance, thus the advice to 'Avoid Women At All Costs'.

If a man (or woman) has a long standing reputation of Respectful, Professional interaction with others (of either gender), the sudden accusation of this sort of behavior will carry far less weight than if that same person (of either gender) has a less than upstanding reputation in these matters ("steer clear of that one, s/he's handsy").

There's a Huge difference between light-hearted banter in the work/business place and someone (of either gender) salivating, leering and/or undressing the other with their eyes, making lewd remarks or rude noises. One is quite harmless (to most) and even enjoyable to a point while the other can be downright dangerous.
Agreed on all points.


To complicate matters, there are always bystanders not involved in these exchanges but overhearing them, who take offense, perhaps unjustified, that this person said that to the other person. Too often, rather than inquire if one is offended by remarks of the other and act accordingly, they go off and tattle to The Boss and all hell breaks loose.

More of those Unintended Consequences.

Straying a bit but this is similar to the political correctness nuts who convince people who are not offended by xxx-thing they should feel offended. Or, worse, 'act on the others persons behalf' and lodge a complaint, such as you describe


Upon further reflection, it's possible those men with whom I did business for so long and suddenly wouldn't deal with me anymore, might have been under pressure from Higher Up, who perhaps had skeletons in Their closets and reason to lay awake nights.
(';')
It's possible, yes.

Cheers
DD
 
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  #55  
Old 12-09-2018, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by SinF View Post
The risk of getting falsely accused does predate #MeToo, however, in the modern, much more connected, much more "internet never forgets", much more "social media mob" world it is infinitely mode damaging.

Do you think it is possible to recover for a 20s-40s man from "she said, he said" social media accusation?

Another thought, which I forgot to include earlier, is that a person seeking the risk-free solution of avoiding women at all costs might wanna consider backing it up with avoiding social media at all costs.

I've known a number of people (all of them much younger than me) who have greatly reduced or eliminated their social media presence as a form of protection against a variety of foes.... stalking, shaming, bullying, nosy employers, vindictive people...over and above false allegation issues. I've heard some horrible stories.

Cheers
DD
 
  #56  
Old 12-09-2018, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug View Post
So, how do we fix this?
Before one could fix this, one need to try to understand the underlying cause. Is there a rape epidemic that requires such drastic deviation from presumption of innocence? If not, who is pushing for normalizing this massive overreaction and what are their ultimate goals?

My answer to this that the root cause is feminism that turned sour with misandry. The goal is to "get back at" men (aka patriarchy) that they see as the root cause of all societal ills, historically and otherwise. It is power play in its purest form and has nothing to do with reducing victimization or advancing the cause of egalitarianism.

 
  #57  
Old 12-09-2018, 05:25 PM
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I've been at sea for (hang on, I'll just find a lantern to swing) over 40 years and in all that time, and all over the world, I have only ever been upset by idiots, ********* and morons because they come in all shapes, sexes, colours and creeds.
I don't give a rats **** who you are; whether your ***** hang low or you are 'finding' yourself, don't bother me and I won't bother you.
I'll treat anybody in exactly the same way that I would expect to be treated on first meeting; with caution and due respect.
After that I reserve the right to either a) treat you with utter contempt or b) invite you in for a beer. Or a nice chilled glass of Chardonnay.
I work with racists, bigots and misogynists (mostly the same person!) but they are entitled to their own opinions and in no way am I forced to agree with, or endorse, their opinions.
I have been sexually harassed by a gay senior officer, bullied and treated like a peasant by other officers.
I have sailed under a female Captain, been flown by female pilots and sailed with transgender people.
Who cares? It's all part of life's rich pageant.
Just be reasonable to each other.
Otherwise; it all gets legislated and then we as well just all buy condos in North Korea.
Here endeth the lesson.
 
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  #58  
Old 12-09-2018, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by SinF View Post
Before one could fix this, one need to try to understand the underlying cause. Is there a rape epidemic that requires such drastic deviation from presumption of innocence? If not, who is pushing for normalizing this massive overreaction and what are their ultimate goals?

My answer to this that the root cause is feminism that turned sour with misandry. The goal is to "get back at" men (aka patriarchy) that they see as the root cause of all societal ills, historically and otherwise. It is power play in its purest form and has nothing to do with reducing victimization or advancing the cause of egalitarianism.

I dunno if there is a rape epidemic.

I'm certain there isn't a sexual harassment/abuse epidemic; that is to say,there isn't a sudden outbreak of occurrences. I feel certain is has been going on steadily for generations.

Anyhow......

With respect to false allegations, which is apparently the most immediate and grave concern for some men, I think everyone would agree that misandry is the motivating factor in virtually all cases of false allegation. I certainly do. Well, maybe some are just looking for deep pockets to tap.

The role misandry plays within the broader scope of intolerance of sexual harassment/abuse, and reporting of same, I'm less certain.

I am certain that misandry exists under the broad, ill-defined umbrella of feminism and is a threat to both men and feminism.

Anyhow again.....

We can and should enter into (what will surely be) an umpteen-years-long and bitter, fist-shaking struggle identify and eradicate misandry, and rail against it, and determine what negative impacts it has on our society, summarily blame it, and condemn and, and.....

But, in the meantime, what can be done to protect men against false allegations?

Cheers
DD







 
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  #59  
Old 12-10-2018, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug View Post
But, in the meantime, what can be done to protect men against false allegations?
Couple things:

1. Combat definition creep that is pushed by feminists. Morning-after regrets of drunken sex doesn't make it rape. Unwanted hug doesn't make it sexual assault. Foot-in-the-mouth disease doesn't constitute sexual harassment. Indiscriminate assholery doesn't make it systemic misogyny. Explicit, verbal consent isn't the only type of consent that exists.
2. Proportionality of response. Telling a lewd joke doesn't warrant the same magnitude of response as violent rape. There has to be more nuance.
3. Path to social forgiveness after transgressions. While I don't believe that serial molesters and violent rapists deserve forgiveness, everyone else should have a way to move on.
4. Presumption of innocence. Trust the victim is only reasonable as a support strategy, not as a moral code or prosecutorial standard.
5. Socially, false accusers should be treated the same way as rightfully accused. That is, false accusing of rape should carry the same magnitude of social stigma as rapists.
6. False accusers should go on a sex offenders list.
7. Legally, accused should have the same level of protection (i.e. publication ban) as victims. This way there are barriers and protections to trial by media/social media.
 

Last edited by SinF; 12-10-2018 at 02:47 PM.
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I say this as a man who is fully within the relevant demographics: Many of you are wrongly assuming that identifying oneself as a victim is without cost. Many women have sacrificed their careers to come forward. Countless others face harsh judgment and social avoidance. Revealing that you have been assaulted is not something that women want to do. I know far too many women who have been assaulted and have buried it. The price they have paid is immense, and without justice. I know precisely none who've made false accusations. The majority of women I know closely have been harassed and/or assaulted. Those of you who are doubting the frequency: I guarantee you even the press cannot keep up with how much this happens.

False accusations are more infrequent and harder to get away with than you think. And defamation lawsuits exist. If you're legitimately afraid of being (falsely) accused, that says more about you than about the social climate. It's not hard to not be creepy. It's not hard to not assault or harass women. The difference is that you can't get away with it as easily anymore. And rightly so. If this is a problem for you, I have no sympathy. Whether you keep up with humanity is on you.

Masculinity doesn't entail any sort of entitlement to do anything to women. Being a man only requires that you be a good one.
 
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