XJ XJ6 / XJ8 / XJR ( X350 & X358 ) 2003 - 2009

chains replaced, but not the rattle with silence

 
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Old 05-08-2019, 08:56 PM
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Default chains replaced, but not the rattle with silence

Upgraded my 1998 XJR 4.0 straight 6 for the V8 4.2 2007 model. I qualify for an upgrade to this forum.... do I need to wear a suit?

I claimed my mechanical insurance in its last month to have the timing chains replaced as diagnosed by my mechanic. 3 weeks later and $8.5k in costs, my chunk was not the expected $500, but 3.5k. because of the extras that were found that needed to be fixed at the time it was apart.

I collected the car and would get the bill later, stared the car and took it home and later restarted it then there was the familiar rattle.

He has now told me its the piston number 4 hitting the head which is bad and its the big end. I need to stop driving it and bring it back in and no he wont consider paying anything towards this repair. But, because the noise is what I wanted to go away on the last job! His diagnosis this time and last was spot on.

I asked for proof his new diagnosis is right and he did some things I find unrelated, so I have researched myself here and with others I know and cannot follow any of his logic.'

Everything I have heard and read points the solenoid wiring, or VVT as the cause of this noise. I know what is happening oil pressure building up assisted by should be moving pins and empty areas filling up. No 4 is at the back and more oil sits there at rest etc.

The others with issues that appear here in threads with attached videos really help. I believe that neither diagnosis he has given me relates to my noise. The sounds is the same as the most popular VVT link.

So, why am I posting this, if if I already know what it is?

To let you guys laugh at me? I guess, away you go - a lot of people pay to be humiliated just usually that is on other forums :-). I have already paid tho I had nothing like that in mind - so scuse the tangent.

I just want to know if the noise in the video I attached is a VVT issue and get more knowledge to support my reverse assault.

His reason takes the cake. There were two noises, both exactly the same. I fixed one of them, now we need to fix the second.

I am a musician, sound engineer, computer dude and disagree, I also have some reasonable intelligence, unlike him or is he right?

I asked him for proof that the big end was the problem. He says he measured the distance in each cylinder and No4 is different so that is a potential problem anyway. Also a camera down the spark plug hole showed some dings inside no 4.

Another suggestion to prove big end was to take off the oil filter and look for metal, he did, no metal is there.

135000km was about right timing for chains to be done anyway, yes.

Head and Piston collision seem very far fetched to me - the rattle has been there at startup for 18 months.

I've written too much already - hope the video plays!

Anyone care to assist me - or laugh - i'll take both .
 
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Old 05-08-2019, 09:04 PM
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Default video and sound

attached video did not seem to appear, trying a link

https://1drv.ms/v/s!Ahsm7WkF8jvmmKd5pnfgm4nyhN7nUw
 
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Old 05-09-2019, 04:01 AM
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That is exactly the same noise as my N/A makes at start-up and for the same duration.....I understand it to be my oil-starved VVT rattling as it tries to pin itself and the noise very quickly disappears when sufficient oil pressure has built up for it to do so? It has been doing this for the entire one-and-a-half years that I have owned it and it has 164,000 kilometres?
Others more knowledgeable than me may confirm this and can give you a better technical description than I am able to.....
 
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Old 05-09-2019, 06:54 AM
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85,000 miles and the timing chain needed replacing on a 2007 4.2 engine!! That in and of itself is very rare judging by what I have seen reported in this forum.

I would tend to suspect your mechanic has a few screws loose and would not trust him.

Head and piston collision noise would in my view keep going and would not just sound at start up.
 

Last edited by jackra_1; 05-09-2019 at 06:59 AM.
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Old 05-09-2019, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by EsRay View Post
That is exactly the same noise as my N/A makes at start-up and for the same duration.....I understand it to be my oil-starved VVT rattling as it tries to pin itself and the noise very quickly disappears when sufficient oil pressure has built up for it to do so? It has been doing this for the entire one-and-a-half years that I have owned it and it has 164,000 kilometres?
Others more knowledgeable than me may confirm this and can give you a better technical description than I am able to.....
EsRay - Yes, and when you change the oil it can go away for a while but soon returns after a long trip.

Can be a standard rattle always on cold start, sometimes when warm and more common all the time after oil is getting older....

So mine has had many opinions, but the assumption was the timing chains were to be done and the full jaguar kit was purchased to do it. The primary and secondary tensioners were replaced and the chains were stretched when inspected by the insurance company.

If this is so common, should it be a part of the kit or are these two repairs not usually linked?

If it is the VVT, its not doing much damage, thankfully but also amazingly as the noise is not a quiet one.

Do you just put up with yours making the noise?

When or if you want to sell it, the price is vastly reduced. iIf you could get anyone to buy it. Only a wholesale price for trade in would do it when I checked, it was $7k, the price for 2 gas shocks is more hat that.....
 
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Old 05-09-2019, 08:40 AM
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Mine has always done this, irrespective of the oil change I did at outset. Yes, I just put up with it for the few seconds it is there!

The only alternative that I have seen was posted in this forum (and on You Tube, I think) by a very clever guy who fitted some sort of small oil reservoir/tank with a valve that retained oil pressure when the engine is shut down and then deploys that oil pressure to the VVT to prevent this 'death rattle'?

Far too complicated for me, I'm afraid!

I don't know if replacing the Variable Valve Timing Oil Control Solenoids would help? Perhaps one of our wizards could inform, please?

When I come to selling, I will simply ensure that my engine is already running and focus my buyers attention on the receipts for a small fortune that I have spent to ensure that my iCarsoft Code Reader shows absolutely no codes at any of the sensor/modules!
 

Last edited by EsRay; 05-09-2019 at 08:55 AM.
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Old 05-09-2019, 09:02 AM
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thanks jackra_1

thanks for your support, that's mechanic 0 me 1 so far!

EsRay did not say, maybe I should add a survey to the thread for voting.

the chains were stretched on inspection once pulled down.

its possible the car was owned by a person who on ever trip imagined a bikini girl at start and a checkered flag at the supermarket car park entrance.

It is easy to go fast in these XJR's, they are like rocketship's when in Sport mode.

the head and Piston collision possibility came from an "expert" opinion that said that there is very minimal clearance at the top of the piston cycle and any small variation caused by wear at the bottom would do that. Really, it's that miniscule?

I can't understand why its 1 out of 8, like you the noise should not be any different after start.

the dings inside that pot seen by his camera could be caused by something dropping in there once and being disintegrated or noticed and removed so be historic.

He has not given me the footage or measurements so far, my bet is he not have even done the measuring but I'll be driving in there tomorrow and asking him for them.

The engine is fully powered to spec, no drop in power at all...
 
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Old 05-09-2019, 09:11 AM
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I can't do that, pass the problem on to the next poor muffin.

Despite that being what happened to me.

I paid for a pre purchasre inspection, paid the car salesman, paid the mechanic, paid the insurance company paid the finance company and turns out its my job to highlight what has gone wrong.

There are repairs for the solenoid problems - the wiring can short which is easy to fix.

Are they accesable without dismantle?

I think that is why that dude added the pressure button, too hard to get to them compared with an additional gadget to prebuild the oil pressure before starting - cost effective.

My mechanic needs to open it up and fix it at no cost to me, promptly.

I am asking the forum if I am wrong, because I only know what I have learned recently.

I think he is pointing to another place and saying it's that bit over there, because the big end is a new one and he thinks he can charge me....

A big end sound is vastly different and is continuous, right?
 
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Old 05-09-2019, 09:19 AM
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Agree with all you have said. I wish you luck.
 
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Old 05-09-2019, 09:23 AM
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I can't do that, pass the problem on to the next poor muffin. (quote)

What problem?

My car goes like Sh#t Off A Shovel!
 

Last edited by EsRay; 05-09-2019 at 09:27 AM.
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Old 05-09-2019, 09:28 AM
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Just read the following...interesting.







Engine/Timing Chain
FEB 15, 2018 1:54 PM

Timing Chain Stretch: It Could Be Neglected Oil Changes And The Wrong Oil

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Andrew Markel,EDITOR, UNDERHOOD SERVICE MAGAZINE



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Timing chain stretch is not the stretching of the timing chain, it is an elongation of the timing chain caused by wear to the chain’s components. The most common cause of timing chain stretch is lack of maintenance and regular oil changes.




Worn out oil can no longer lubricate the chain and will cause the rollers and links to wear against each other. As the chain runs around the gears of the camshafts and crankshaft, the movement between the rollers and links causes wear and elongation.



As the timing chain wears, this can change the timing of the camshaft and crankshaft. The change in timing is sensed by the camshaft and crankshaft position sensors. This can cause codes that indicate the correlation or synchronization problem with the engine position sensors.

If the driver ignores the check engine light, eventually the timing chain will elongate to the point that the engine may have a significant loss of power due to a lack of compression. In some cases, a worn timing chain may cause the engine to jump time a few teeth. If this happens on a multi-cam engine it may appear to be a dead miss on multiple cylinders. The bad oil can also damage the tensioner which makes the possibility of the engine skipping time or a catastrophic failure even greater.

Some of the most notorious engines for timing chain stretch include the GM High-Feature V6, Ford Modular V8 and Nissan VQ V6. All of these OEMs have stated that the lack of oil changes and use of the wrong oil causes the timing chain stretch conditions.




If you are replacing a timing chain or chains, it is also critical to inspect and, in some cases, replace components that tension the chain and variable valve timing actuators. The actuators are powered by the same oil that damaged the timing chain. Inside a variable valve timing actuator are finely machine surfaces and seals that can are easily damaged by worn out or the wrong type of oil. In some cases, it is cheap insurance to replace the actuators while you are replacing the timing chain to ensure that the customer gets the full value of the labor time.



 
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Old 05-09-2019, 10:03 AM
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EsRay did not say, maybe I should add a survey to the thread for voting. (Quote)

Apologies because I do not understand you, but what was it that I did not say?
 

Last edited by EsRay; 05-09-2019 at 10:16 AM.
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Old 05-09-2019, 05:14 PM
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1. it is a matter of proving what the noise is to a prospective buyer who may not be clued up on this and therefore not trust the "it is a common thing, just ignore it" thing.

2. Insurance say they will not reinsure without it fixed.

Also, I want to know for certain it is this and not that anyway because - and this is the main reason.

I will keep it if its insurable,
because mine goes faster than yours!

Oh - your next question about you did not say - I'm just after a who is right - me or the mechanic

pretty clear so far and I am getting some great facts to support what to do next

thanks everyone
 
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Old 05-09-2019, 05:39 PM
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brilliant last paragraph, thanks Jackra_1

the following is the description of the work done from the invoice

it does not mention variable valve timing actuators.

Replaced water pump while we can, On start up and checking over, we noticed auto trans cooler lines weeping power steer fluid, Removed, Had repaired and refitted, On inspection while reassembling engine, we noticed radiator header tank bottle has cracks and about to be a problem, Procured and replaced. 1.00 0.00 Removed the engine covers and undertrays, checked and leak tested the air conditioning system, evacuated gas, weighted, established correct weight, drained the cooling system, drained the engine oil, disconnected and removed the radiator, air conditioning condensor and oil cooler, releaded and removed the drive belts, tensioners, a/c compressor and power steering pump, removed the wipers and front scuttle panel, removed the rocker covers, crank pulley, removed the front engine covers to expose the timing chains for inspection. Sourced special service tools and ordered the required parts.

Lined up the timing marks, used the service tools to lock the cam and crack shafts, released and removed the primary timing chains, tensioners and guides, released and removed the secondary chains and tensioners, replaced the crank seal, cleaned up the front of the engine, fitted new chains and tensioners, rechecked timing marks, released the locking tools, general check over, cleaned up sealaing surfaces, reassembled the timing cover and rocker covers with new gaskets and sealant as reqiured, replaced the spark plugs, reassembled the power steering pump and a/c compressor, belts, refitted the oil cooler, a/c condensor and radiator, reassembled the hoses,fitted new expansion tank (old one cracked), filled the engine with fresh oil, filled and bled the cooling system, final check over, started and ran.

Anything else they may have missed, from that ?
 
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Old 05-09-2019, 08:41 PM
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As you said, the last paragraph says it all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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Old 05-09-2019, 10:17 PM
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On the subject of VVT's, there still appears to be two unanswered questions:

1. Do other Forum Members experience this 5 second rattle at cold start-up or is it just myself and Zigzag? Does Jackra_1, for example?
2. If not, then what did they do to eradicate it?
 
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Old 05-10-2019, 01:46 AM
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Originally Posted by zigjag View Post

Replaced water pump while we can, On start up and checking over, we noticed auto trans cooler lines weeping power steer fluid, Removed, Had repaired and refitted, On inspection while reassembling engine, we noticed radiator header tank bottle has cracks and about to be a problem, Procured and replaced. 1.00 0.00 Removed the engine covers and undertrays, checked and leak tested the air conditioning system, evacuated gas, weighted, established correct weight, drained the cooling system, drained the engine oil, disconnected and removed the radiator, air conditioning condensor and oil cooler, releaded and removed the drive belts, tensioners, a/c compressor and power steering pump, removed the wipers and front scuttle panel, removed the rocker covers, crank pulley, removed the front engine covers to expose the timing chains for inspection. Sourced special service tools and ordered the required parts.

Lined up the timing marks, used the service tools to lock the cam and crack shafts, released and removed the primary timing chains, tensioners and guides, released and removed the secondary chains and tensioners, replaced the crank seal, cleaned up the front of the engine, fitted new chains and tensioners, rechecked timing marks, released the locking tools, general check over, cleaned up sealaing surfaces, reassembled the timing cover and rocker covers with new gaskets and sealant as reqiured, replaced the spark plugs, reassembled the power steering pump and a/c compressor, belts, refitted the oil cooler, a/c condensor and radiator, reassembled the hoses,fitted new expansion tank (old one cracked), filled the engine with fresh oil, filled and bled the cooling system, final check over, started and ran.

?
As you say it doesn't mention anything about replacing or servicing anything to do with the VVT. It also doesn't seem a lot of work for 8.5K.
 
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Old 05-10-2019, 04:20 AM
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thanks paddy,

I have not had anyone say that the same noise could even possibly come from a piston hitting the head in one out of 8 cylinders.

Is that because it is just such a ridiculous thing to say?
 
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Old 05-10-2019, 05:54 AM
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So the consensus appears to be that it could be loss of oil pressure within your VVT allowing it to disengage and then it rattles on a cold start as it builds pressure to reengage?
If so, then rather than continuing to discuss what it is not, please may I return us to the two questions I asked in post #16?
 

Last edited by EsRay; 05-10-2019 at 05:56 AM.
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Old 05-10-2019, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by EsRay View Post
On the subject of VVT's, there still appears to be two unanswered questions:

1. Do other Forum Members experience this 5 second rattle at cold start-up or is it just myself and Zigzag? Does Jackra_1, for example?
2. If not, then what did they do to eradicate it?
On my 2005 XJR there is no VVT.

On my 2013 NA Range Rover I DO have VVT and no rattle on start up ONLY. I do have a slight rattle from the back of the engine, I think, all the time.

I can only hear it with the hood up when standing by the engine with hood up. So do not think it is what you describe EsRay.

The 5.0 engine has been described by several people as "noisy". the 4.2 not so.
 
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