No Start - No Shift - Multiple Fault Messages
#101
01-29-2015, 01:48 AM
Veteran Member
I'm fairly sure your car behaves like an S-Type, in which case...
Fuel pump should run briefly on ignition II, to get fuel pressure up ready for starting.
That can be prevented by such as inertia switch (which no module can read so can't have codes).
PATS light has "prove out" feature or else should flash a code during start attempt.
Do you hear the pump? Also, I guess you have a Schrader (sp?) valve, do you have fuel pressure?
Anti-theft shuts down injectors but I believe you'd have both PATS light & OBD codes.
Be very wary about hotwiring the pump except briefly on a bench as it's driven by PWM and if in circuit you're backfeeding a module or worse.
Now a guess: I think it won't re-run the pump if there's no CKP signal so you'd just have that initial burst. I suspect it does fire the sparks.
Fuel pump should run briefly on ignition II, to get fuel pressure up ready for starting.
That can be prevented by such as inertia switch (which no module can read so can't have codes).
PATS light has "prove out" feature or else should flash a code during start attempt.
Do you hear the pump? Also, I guess you have a Schrader (sp?) valve, do you have fuel pressure?
Anti-theft shuts down injectors but I believe you'd have both PATS light & OBD codes.
Be very wary about hotwiring the pump except briefly on a bench as it's driven by PWM and if in circuit you're backfeeding a module or worse.
Now a guess: I think it won't re-run the pump if there's no CKP signal so you'd just have that initial burst. I suspect it does fire the sparks.
Last edited by JagV8; 01-29-2015 at 04:32 AM.
#102
01-29-2015, 01:43 PM
#103
01-29-2015, 03:16 PM
Out of curiosity, and 'cause I was bored, I hooked up my scanner to see what fuel pump duty cycles should be.
Ignition on: 75% duty cyc
Engine cranking: 50% duty cyc
Engine running: ~32% duty cyc
Regarding inertia switch, I am able to read the status. Status showed switch off.
Ignition on: 75% duty cyc
Engine cranking: 50% duty cyc
Engine running: ~32% duty cyc
Regarding inertia switch, I am able to read the status. Status showed switch off.
What great timing and kismet Don!
I took my lunch break to go check something regarding the Inertia Switch. As previously reported I get a status of "ON" on the switch from the datalogger, but from the schematic it was impossible to tell if on or off was good versus bad.
So I checked it again, got "ON" then pulled Fuse 19 in the cabin, and still got "ON" which meant even though the Inertia Switch was functioning properly and delivering power everywhere I had tested, the ECM is acting like it isn't getting the 12v signal! It is sending 12v to REM, so that really narrows down where the failure is.
If you are getting the "OFF" signal under normal running conditions that confirms it perfectly. Thanks!
Will report back as soon as I can investigate.
Last edited by Mac Allan; 01-29-2015 at 07:42 PM. Reason: clarity
#104
01-30-2015, 12:16 AM
#105
01-30-2015, 12:33 AM
#106
01-30-2015, 07:04 PM
#107
01-30-2015, 08:46 PM
Senior Member
So glad to hear you've got it started. You have been through so much and want to share my thanks for giving us all some learnings will will no doubt use in the future. Well done.
#108
01-31-2015, 12:08 AM
Nearly the end of the saga.
When I switched my train of thought to assuming that the ECM was doing exactly what it should, I focused on the signals that would tell it to shut off the fuel pump.
I first looked at the Inertia Switch, but was thrown off because there was 12v at Fuse 19 in the cabin fuse box (and all the other fuses feeding off the Inertia Switch). So, I used the IDS/SDD data logger function to look at other signals like the Crank Position Sensor and Camshaft Sensors, but didn’t find anything out of spec or unexpected.
I went back to the Inertia Switch because the fact that the data logger said it was “ON” made me wonder if “ON” meant it is sending power where it should per the schematic, or did it mean it was triggered as if in accident. I was searching the archives and the internet trying to find a definitive answer, when Don (DKurtti) posted his “out of curiosity” post. He had interrogated the signal and got “OFF” as the correct condition in a running car, so I had the answer I needed (thanks to Don!).
Since, I knew I had 12v to Fuse 19, I guessed it was either a wiring or connector issue between that point and ECM. The 12v signal was going to the REM, so I checked the Engine Harness to Engine Compartment Harnesses Connector (PI41), and since I had opened and cleaned the contacts in the connector I had a sneaky suspicion I might have done something to screw things up. I back probed Pin 15 and got 12v on one side and 3v on the other.
Eureka!
So I took it apart to see what was what. My best guess to how I messed it up was that it is a 42 pin connector that it is oriented vertically. Pin 15 is at the bottom of a column. It looks like when I sprayed contact cleaner on the female side of the connector, the gunk followed out and down then pooled into the Pin 15 orifice to create resistance that wasn’t there before I touched it. [Head slap]
I then pulled the ECM connector and confirmed that I had 12v going all the way to the ECM. Put everything back together, did a hard reset, and was certain it would start.
It didn’t.
I was crestfallen, and just closed the IDS/SDD session and walked away.
After dinner, I had remembered something I had found before we had figured out the EMS relay failure. Someone on the forum had posted this great write up on the Flight Data Recorder (DTC P1582):
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/a...rder-notes.pdf
From it, I had learned how to read and decode the data using Excel, and when I looked at it simply had registered “No Start” (Duh!).
However, I had not looked closely at the Flight Recorder Data *after* I had replaced the Front Fuse/Power Distribution Box because I falsely assumed it would just say the same thing “No Start”. I looked at the above document again, and low and behold it could record “Inertia Switch” so on a hunch, I went out to the garage and used IDS/SDD to clear the Flight Data Recorder. That was it! The car started immediately.
Apparently, once that bit gets switched in the ECM, restoring the signal either by resetting the switch or fixing your own boneheaded mess, won’t restore normal operations. I guess that means if you are in a real life situation where the Inertia Switch is triggered you either need IDS/SDD or you are getting towed to someone who does.
The moral of the story is, don’t assume that all those board soldered components won’t fail, don’t assume ‘it’ll always throw a code’ if something is wrong, and if you have a problem after you fixed the original problem, it’s probably something you altered during the course.
Apologies for the world’s longest thread.
When I switched my train of thought to assuming that the ECM was doing exactly what it should, I focused on the signals that would tell it to shut off the fuel pump.
I first looked at the Inertia Switch, but was thrown off because there was 12v at Fuse 19 in the cabin fuse box (and all the other fuses feeding off the Inertia Switch). So, I used the IDS/SDD data logger function to look at other signals like the Crank Position Sensor and Camshaft Sensors, but didn’t find anything out of spec or unexpected.
I went back to the Inertia Switch because the fact that the data logger said it was “ON” made me wonder if “ON” meant it is sending power where it should per the schematic, or did it mean it was triggered as if in accident. I was searching the archives and the internet trying to find a definitive answer, when Don (DKurtti) posted his “out of curiosity” post. He had interrogated the signal and got “OFF” as the correct condition in a running car, so I had the answer I needed (thanks to Don!).
Since, I knew I had 12v to Fuse 19, I guessed it was either a wiring or connector issue between that point and ECM. The 12v signal was going to the REM, so I checked the Engine Harness to Engine Compartment Harnesses Connector (PI41), and since I had opened and cleaned the contacts in the connector I had a sneaky suspicion I might have done something to screw things up. I back probed Pin 15 and got 12v on one side and 3v on the other.
Eureka!
So I took it apart to see what was what. My best guess to how I messed it up was that it is a 42 pin connector that it is oriented vertically. Pin 15 is at the bottom of a column. It looks like when I sprayed contact cleaner on the female side of the connector, the gunk followed out and down then pooled into the Pin 15 orifice to create resistance that wasn’t there before I touched it. [Head slap]
I then pulled the ECM connector and confirmed that I had 12v going all the way to the ECM. Put everything back together, did a hard reset, and was certain it would start.
It didn’t.
I was crestfallen, and just closed the IDS/SDD session and walked away.
After dinner, I had remembered something I had found before we had figured out the EMS relay failure. Someone on the forum had posted this great write up on the Flight Data Recorder (DTC P1582):
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/a...rder-notes.pdf
From it, I had learned how to read and decode the data using Excel, and when I looked at it simply had registered “No Start” (Duh!).
However, I had not looked closely at the Flight Recorder Data *after* I had replaced the Front Fuse/Power Distribution Box because I falsely assumed it would just say the same thing “No Start”. I looked at the above document again, and low and behold it could record “Inertia Switch” so on a hunch, I went out to the garage and used IDS/SDD to clear the Flight Data Recorder. That was it! The car started immediately.
Apparently, once that bit gets switched in the ECM, restoring the signal either by resetting the switch or fixing your own boneheaded mess, won’t restore normal operations. I guess that means if you are in a real life situation where the Inertia Switch is triggered you either need IDS/SDD or you are getting towed to someone who does.
The moral of the story is, don’t assume that all those board soldered components won’t fail, don’t assume ‘it’ll always throw a code’ if something is wrong, and if you have a problem after you fixed the original problem, it’s probably something you altered during the course.
Apologies for the world’s longest thread.
#109
01-31-2015, 01:45 AM
Veteran Member
#110
05-19-2016, 08:15 AM
I just read through the history of resolving your problem. What an ordeal. Delayed congratulations and admiration for your fortitude.
You mentioned that you purchased and used the British Diagnostics IDS/SDD tool. As someone who put it through its paces, I would like your opinion on it; I'm considering buying it but the blogs give mixed reviews. Any thoughts you have on a diagnostic/coding tool would be appreciated.
You mentioned that you purchased and used the British Diagnostics IDS/SDD tool. As someone who put it through its paces, I would like your opinion on it; I'm considering buying it but the blogs give mixed reviews. Any thoughts you have on a diagnostic/coding tool would be appreciated.
#111
05-19-2016, 01:37 PM
Veteran Member
The following users liked this post:
Dan.B (05-19-2016)
#112
05-19-2016, 06:20 PM
You mentioned that you purchased and used the British Diagnostics IDS/SDD tool. As someone who put it through its paces, I would like your opinion on it; I'm considering buying it but the blogs give mixed reviews. Any thoughts you have on a diagnostic/coding tool would be appreciated.
The one advantage of the British Diagnostics version was he provided some tech support in the beginning and when my Mongoose cable failed he replaced it without hassle. However, from reports of others he seems to go AWOL at times. I have no complaints personally.
The following users liked this post:
Dan.B (05-19-2016)
#113
05-19-2016, 07:30 PM
#114
05-20-2016, 05:39 AM
Veteran Member
I checked once more my CDs'.
Definitely v131 is the latest version that does not connect to Topix. (131.03).
At the time I bought them from the following supplier:
Jaguar Land Rover IDS / SDD v131.03 + Calibration files. With Login / password. | eBay
He still sells on ebay.co.uk from time to time, I think.
Re. the Mongoose, I don't find any more the reference of the supplier. I described my experience starting from here:
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/g...-66558/page20/
There are many Chinese suppliers. I recommend you buy following recommendations of people having recently bought and successfully installed one.
Definitely v131 is the latest version that does not connect to Topix. (131.03).
At the time I bought them from the following supplier:
Jaguar Land Rover IDS / SDD v131.03 + Calibration files. With Login / password. | eBay
He still sells on ebay.co.uk from time to time, I think.
Re. the Mongoose, I don't find any more the reference of the supplier. I described my experience starting from here:
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/g...-66558/page20/
There are many Chinese suppliers. I recommend you buy following recommendations of people having recently bought and successfully installed one.
#115
11-01-2018, 04:49 PM
Multiple fault messages and other issues
Anytime something weird has happened on my 2005 xjr it has always been about the battery.
i took it out of winter storage recently to have pretty much every code you can have show up. Abs/cat/ low brake fluid / air suspension, speedometer wouldnt work , windshield wiper switch cut the engine - completely possessed..
so I started by checking out the battery and terminals and replaced neg terminal as it was corroded. Tried my new i930 scanner and it could not hook up to the ecu??? Checked the grounding points under the hood ( 1 on driver side , 2 on passenger ) . One of the points (bolt) on the passenger side completely disintegrated when I tried to remove nut.
Cleaned up the connectors - hooked those leads to the other ground point and problem solved.
these cars are very very sensitive to battery and grounding issues as these systems as designed are vunerable to decay over rime. Hope rhis helps someone out there .
if your i930 cannot initialize it is likely those ground points are dirty.
i took it out of winter storage recently to have pretty much every code you can have show up. Abs/cat/ low brake fluid / air suspension, speedometer wouldnt work , windshield wiper switch cut the engine - completely possessed..
so I started by checking out the battery and terminals and replaced neg terminal as it was corroded. Tried my new i930 scanner and it could not hook up to the ecu??? Checked the grounding points under the hood ( 1 on driver side , 2 on passenger ) . One of the points (bolt) on the passenger side completely disintegrated when I tried to remove nut.
Cleaned up the connectors - hooked those leads to the other ground point and problem solved.
these cars are very very sensitive to battery and grounding issues as these systems as designed are vunerable to decay over rime. Hope rhis helps someone out there .
if your i930 cannot initialize it is likely those ground points are dirty.
#116
11-02-2018, 01:10 PM
i930 ECU read failure
Anytime something weird has happened on my 2005 xjr it has always been about the battery.
i took it out of winter storage recently to have pretty much every code you can have show up. Abs/cat/ low brake fluid / air suspension, speedometer wouldnt work , windshield wiper switch cut the engine - completely possessed..
so I started by checking out the battery and terminals and replaced neg terminal as it was corroded. Tried my new i930 scanner and it could not hook up to the ecu??? Checked the grounding points under the hood ( 1 on driver side , 2 on passenger ) . One of the points (bolt) on the passenger side completely disintegrated when I tried to remove nut.
Cleaned up the connectors - hooked those leads to the other ground point and problem solved.
these cars are very very sensitive to battery and grounding issues as these systems as designed are vunerable to decay over rime. Hope rhis helps someone out there .
if your i930 cannot initialize it is likely those ground points are dirty.
i took it out of winter storage recently to have pretty much every code you can have show up. Abs/cat/ low brake fluid / air suspension, speedometer wouldnt work , windshield wiper switch cut the engine - completely possessed..
so I started by checking out the battery and terminals and replaced neg terminal as it was corroded. Tried my new i930 scanner and it could not hook up to the ecu??? Checked the grounding points under the hood ( 1 on driver side , 2 on passenger ) . One of the points (bolt) on the passenger side completely disintegrated when I tried to remove nut.
Cleaned up the connectors - hooked those leads to the other ground point and problem solved.
these cars are very very sensitive to battery and grounding issues as these systems as designed are vunerable to decay over rime. Hope rhis helps someone out there .
if your i930 cannot initialize it is likely those ground points are dirty.
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