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In brief, the car fell into deep coma after gearbox conversion. The project is being revived with a special ECU. Let me skip other details but concentrate on the latest challenge.
When turning the key, the cabin light, dash backlights, radio and A/C etc. became functional, but there is not one single check and warning lights, and the trip meter reads nothing. The hazard light, headlights, turning lights, tail light and brake light also do not work at all. When turning the key to the crank position, nothing happens and the dash lights die out. Which electrical part / fuse or relay of the car might be impeding the cranking process? It is not the BPM (same result when installing a used good BPM), and I have a new, fully charged battery and a special ECU that matches the conversion and take care of any security/immobilizer issue. The starter has been found to be in working order, and I have a new crank position sensor.
Expert advice badly needed.
Last edited by Qvhk; 10-28-2016 at 10:45 PM.
Reason: trip meter no reading added
Anyone? I find it unusual for all lights except dash, console and cabin lights to be not working when car key is at on position. I recall the first mechanic who dealt with the car three years ago said that there was a code about the key barrel.... Three years later I got a remapped ECU and succeeded in getting the starter to crank but the ignition for only for a short while and engine died. This was repeated a few time but all result. So the no-start problem is not the ECU but something else (the old ECU was removed and found badly corroded). It is not the CPS; the CPS was removed and started another non-starting XJR. It is not the BPM; I put in another BPM bought from eBay but there is no difference. It is not the battery, a brand new fully charged battery. So my guess is it is electrical connections, but I do not have a Jaguar specialist around here.... So any ideas will be welcome. I do not want to declare Rose (I call it Rose as it is Rose Bronze Metallic, a unique colour of the 1995 XJR) dead yet.
One thing that does tie into the BPM is the shifter for the automatic. Unless it is getting the signal it is in Park or Neutral the starter relay is inhibited.
Disconnected or missing ground connection (s) would be my guess. Although it might seem like one of your lesser concerns, the fact that the cabin lights come on when you put the key in the ignition could be a clue: they should be on from when you opened the door, so the fact they only come on when you put the key in could be a good and relatively simple place to start trying to start tracking down the problem. The car has ignition controlled ground as well as power supplies, and if any of the permanent ground connections were missing you could expect weird combinations of symptoms, kind of like you have.
Thanks both. I shall relay the heads up to my mechanic on his return from vacation end of this week. Rose has a few misfortunes. The car started up fine two years ago after the gearbox conversion, but went to deep sleep on the return trip from an MoT inspection. The mechanic conducting the conversion claimed that he had sought help from a local Jaguar acquaintance who found codes pointing to a failure inside the key barrel and power drain from the left front seat window, but they didn't tell me the exact codes. The car was left at that with no one daring to recall Rose from mysterious death. I tried to bring another key, but nothing happened. Rose remained paralyzed in the open for two years, suffering from tropical heat and torrential rains. I suspected that the engine was immobilized due to too many jump starting, and luckily got help from Andy who reprogrammed a donor ECU to bypass the security system. The special ECU worked, the starter cranked and almost fired up the engine but when it happened there was no dash light or cabin light.... The engine fired up and went dead before I released the ignition key. The car was left to a volunteer DIYer believing that it was the fuel pump.... It was not. But after a while, even the starter refused to crank. My latest mechanic wanted to start from the basics. Trying to fire up the engine first by bypassing various gateways. He then found that the cabin light switch and dash dimmer were turned off, but there was no signal from the key barrel..... Other lights were also off, so must resolve these
known problems first before further investigation.
Hmm, I would want to start by checking the spark plugs. Are they carbon fouled from all the starting attempts? Is the fuel old and stale? 3 or 4 year old gasoline would probably be fairly nasty by now.
As an anecdote, I have a gas powered pressure washer that I use each spring to wash down the house. If there is any fuel left over from last year in the tank, it won't start. I have to drain the tank and put fresh fuel in it each year and it starts on the first pull of the cord.
Unfortunately, there isn't a drain on the tank of the XJR, but it is possible to disconnect a hose at the pressure regulator and turn on the ignition to activate the fuel pump.
Other thoughts, is there are a number of ignition controlled grounds that go through relays. The relays are at the age where they start to fail, and given the storage conditions you described the connections could be corroded.
For each system that you have described as not working I would go through the circuit diagrams and check for ignition controlled grounds and verify they are working correctly.
The present state of Rose is the result of multiple misfortunes. Hope the following would help make things clearer. The no start reason(s) have not yet been identified, but the non-working electrical areas are symptoms of the underlying problem. Somehow, somewhere the electrical gateways were cut off or not conducting.
In early 2013, during my regular web search I gained interest in owning a manual shift Jaguar – the X300. Learned that one with a straight-six, supercharged engine and a manual gearbox was a rare find - Jaguar only made 102 XJR6’s in RHD. I then found a pre-owned 1995 XJR6 RHD in Rose Bronze Metallic for sale in Hong Kong. Co-incidentally, a 5-speed gearbox set was listed on eBay. I put in a bid for the latter, and won. I then took serious interest in acquiring Rose, checked it thoroughly inside out, found no rust and the best part was that since new the car has been under the care of a local dealer for 17 years. The less positive signs were that it had some 170,000 Km on the clock, and a corroded valve cover with mild oil leak, and there was some rattling sound at cold start.
Did a lot of web search about the common issues of the XJR6, and was determined to acquire Rose and embark on the gearbox conversion and restoration project. Took more than half a year to get the gearbox shipped, and was quite upset by the seller being dishonest about the condition of the clutch and associated parts. Bought a clutch kit, engine gasket set, bushings for the steering racks, suspension linkages, etc., Hong Kong has no road salt so the coachwork especially the bottom was very solid., but still it took a few months to find a workshop to renew the moving parts on Rose’s underside. I then took another few months to find a workshop willing to do the gearbox conversion. Meantime, bought a set of brand new coil packs from Japan (I did a lot of homework) , and got help from Andy to remap an ECU to sync with the gearbox conversion.
Workshop A did the mechanical restoration of suspension, steering bushes, wheel bearing, etc. very well. Gearbox conversion was done by Workshop B which has very little experience with Jaguar, but it was a success – I personally visited the shop to start the engine and play with various gears. I was told however, that the valve cover and exhaust manifolds would need to be tackled prior to taking Rose for a roadworthiness test (MOT in the UK). I launched a search for manifold solutions (there is a long thread on this forum), ending up with a custom-made set of manifolds in stainless steel by Hayward & Scott in the UK. I also found a refurbished valve-cover in New Zealand. Three months’ time was lost as the shipping agent sent the valve cover to a wrong workshop which accepted the parcel, and the shipping agent had to investigate where it had gone. Luckily, the valve cover was finally recovered. However, Workshop B declined to replace the manifolds claiming that it would be too much work to remove the engine again for access and installation. Workshop C, which introduced Workshop B, agreed to follow up. Workshop C sat on the project for almost a year and, when urged, on its own volition, took Rose to MOT without changing the manifolds. Rose passed all tests except the emission. Worse still, Rose refused to start up on its return from the MOT! Workshop C returned Rose to Workshop B to investigate if there was any wiring issues due to the conversion. Many months passed; no news. Workshop B claimed it had sought expert help from a colleague working with the local dealer, and found the key barrel faulty (but non-conclusive) and the front left window draining the battery. It also worried that being a car almost of 20 years, Rose might have developed other faults while under its custody due to aging. After some pressure, Workshop C took back the car and said the best bet was to source a set of ECU, a security module and BPM from a donor car in South East Asia (where the Workshop has good connections), in the hope that they would overcome the immobilizer issue – which it firmly believe was the primary reason for no-start (Workshop B and C have jumped started Rose many times as she was left untouched a long long time). The search for the tri-modules never happened. I brought a spare key to the workshop and but Rose remained in deep sleep even with the spare key. Gave the workshop a full briefing on all possible non-start issues and asked it to rule out these potential causes before I asked Andy to write another ECU to bypass whatever might have triggered the immobilizer. Nothing happened in six months, so regardless I got the special ECU written and passed to Workshop C. No news for another few months…….
Frustrated by various attempts and excuses so I took a bold decision to re-possess Rose, and put her in temporary covered storage. Also got new FPR, fuel pump, cam sensor rebuild kit, and several new relays ready. A daring DIYer came forward and replaced ECU on Rose with Andy’s special ECU. DIYer found that the screws on the original ECU were untouched, so it was obvious that Workshops B&C never made any attempt to replace the original ECU with the two I obtained from Andy (one for the manual conversion, and one that was specially made to overcome the immobilizer). The on-car ECU, when removed, had rust all over the metal and the two connectors were badly corroded. I took a closer look at the rusty ECU and found that itself was a replacement with “NEW” handwritten on the original factory label showing “LNA1410TC/511; date 18/11/06”. It was unclear when this ECU was last installed on Rose, and whether the corrosion was the original cause of the no-start problem two years ago, or the ECU had turned bad simply because Rose had been left in the open for over two years taking on weathering, rain and humidity during the period. The starter and engine turned on first crank with Andy’s second ECU and a new battery. However, engine still died after cranking. It was unclear if it was due to no fuel, bad fuel, no spark or other issues. The CPS was quickly replaced, so were the spark plugs; still no change. I cannot tell if the spark plugs were all bad, as the spark plug wells were filled with oil. The DIYer and I then suspected the fuel pump. The fuel tank was a pig to remove, only to find that the pump(s) worked fine. Tried on quite a number of relays but Rose still refused to start. The starter did not work this time. No sure if the DIYer had accidentally dislocated any wires or plugged them back wrong. The hope to revive Rose dropped to new low.
DIYer found another workshop (Workshop D) which just started business and was eager to help. Three days passed, main problem diagnosed to be no ignition power. Workshop D gave up.
As a last resort, I invited my very experienced mechanic who works on Alfa and rare classics who is ultra busy but willing to give me a hand in diagnosing Rose’s problem. His first attempt was to determine if there were sparks, fuel, fuel pressure and power, bypassing original electrical connections wherever possible. He said he would deal with the fuel tanks and pumps later and only if necessary. He is very busy and can only work on Rose when he got spare time. He confirmed Workshop D’s finding about the ignition power issue; he also confirmed that the new ECU, old and new BPM and battery are in good working order. He had yet to find why the ignition key did not trigger any engine start action, and why all dash warning lights, headlights, tail and brake lights are not working, whereas dash backlight, aircon, console light, cabin light and radio are fine.
He has not worked on Jaguars before, does not have good eyesight so would welcome suggestions to help him save some time where to focus first. While I was compiling this long story, he texted me to say that he has checked and found the fuses governing the instrument cluster to be fine. He would next look at the ground and power points.
This is s short brief of the attempt in July 2016 by the DIYer to start Rose with the special ECU. The pictures below clearly showed the damage water has done to the ECU.
Notice that the ECU then on Rose was already a replacement marked "NEW" on the label. Here is also a video of the first crank of Rose on that occasion with Andy's special ECU. http://vid1012.photobucket.com/album...ps3uzqdzse.mp4
The starter worked, engine reacted but failed to fire up properly. The instrument cluster warning lights were working at the time; the headlights were not; cabin and console lights were not on but maybe they were turned off at the time. Anyway, the DIYer then replaced the CPS and the spark plugs. Start up was still unsuccessful. So he then looked at the fuel pump, relays, etc. Fuel tank was removed, found fuel pump in working order. Following several unknown attempts, the starter refused to work; things look bleak; DIYer gave up.
It is a great shame that the design of these cars put the electrical connectors at the top of the ECU.
There is a lot of corrosion evident on the pins in the connector in your photo and the mating connector on the wiring loom is likely to be similarly damaged.
Re water ingress, if you remove the plastic grille/trim between the bonnet/hood and the windscreen you may find a rust hole in the corner where water can get in and run down the wires to the ecu connectors.
My mechanic will track down on ways how water got into the ECU, and make suitable correction and preventive measures. He too has cleaned up the ECU connectors and the connecting pins. I would add that the water ingress may have taken place in the last two to three years due to prolonged parking outdoor under the trees where fallen leaves and dirts may have caused problems. However, as Rose almost started successfully with the new ECU in July, but thereafter has developed more electrical issues, the trouble-shooting process has to go far beyond the ECU but the ignition, lightiing as well as instrument warning system.
Rose has shown life signs after the mechanic used starting fluid and started the engine. This shows that the engine ECU, starter and ignition system are in good working order. The mechanic said that previous attempts to directly start the engine were unsuccessful because the moving parts of the engine were jammed due to prolonged stagnancy, as well as rust building up around the moving parts.
The electrical gremlins, which led to dysfunction of the cluster warning lights, headlights, brake lights etc., have been identified. The latch of a connector on the top right corner of the fuel tank failed to hold the receptacle in place due to a broken anchor in the upper margin (see pictures)
and there was also a bent pin in the lowest row. This connection has proven to be an important gateway for a bunch of cables travelling from the cabin to the boot. Apparently, in trying to remove the fuel tank, the DIYer might have pulled the cables and caused damage. The mechanic is thinking of ways to reconnect the male and female cable-connectors securely while allowing some freeplay that is needed in maneuvering the fuel tank and replacing the fuel pumps.
The next challenge is to replace the fuel pumps (XJR has a dual-pump set-up) and replace the fuel hose at the bottom of the fuel tank, as the hose has been damaged during the DIYer's previous attempt to remove the fuel tank. The hose can only be accessed from the bottom of the car. Am looking for the right parts to replace. The parts diagram does not show what runs out of the fuel tank and whether there was a filter element at the bottom of the fuel tank.
Parts 1 and 11 connect to the tank. There is a filter, it's a common one in North America, not sure about HK. The lines are steel, but in line #1 there is a flex portion of rubber hose. You need a typical disconnect tool to remove the lines, I'm sure your mechanic has them. It can be very difficult to get to the connections, as it's above the differential. I made a tool about 6" long out of plastic water pipe with a slot cut in the side to fit over the steel line and allowed me to push the disconnect tool in far enough to release the pipe from the tank.
Once you have the pipes disconnected, the rest of the removal isn't too bad. The tank doesn't have to fully come out of the car to get to the pumps.
The fuel and return lines have flex sections at the engine, perhaps as a test disconnect them there, and rig up a separate tank and pump and see if the car would start on the separate fuel supply before you go to the trouble of removing the tank?
It's a shame, that bulkhead connection didn't need to be disturbed. Good detective work on finding it damaged though!
Thank you. I showed this diagram to my mechanic before but he said that hoses shown were from the external fuel filter underneath the car to the front of the car. Also there should be a filter element inside the fuel tank that leads to the external hose that connects to the outside fuel filter (this is my Mercedes W124 setup). The Jaguar diagrams do not show this or am I confused? Need the correct parts to finish the final resurrection of Rose from the dead. The mechanic is also worried about the tubing inside the fuel tank that extend from the lower base of the fuel pump to the outlet of the fuel tank. Am not sure of his worries but anyway, I read from previous posts in this forum that "that" hose may become loose or disconnected thus causing some no-start situations. Again here the parts diagram is not very clear about this. Any part numbers and or pictures would be very useful.
Here is a picture of the hose removed from the underside of the fuel tank. Is it number #1 in the diagram you quoted? If so how about #7 and 11? The latter two are return hoses?
#7 is the feed pipe from the filter to the engine. #1 goes from the other side of the filter to the tank. #11 is the return line from the engine back to the tank. It's 5/16" diameter, the feed line is 3/8" diameter. The exception seems to be the short portion from the filter to the tank on the feed side is also 5/16" diameter. I would have expected mertric sized tubing, but it isn't.
The photo looks like #1, but not quite. The threaded portion goes to the filter, but after the rubber portion there should be a steel potion of the line with a male fitting to go into the quick connect on the tank.
This is the tank end of #11:
See the male fitting at the top that goes into the tank quick connect?
This is a view into the tank showing the twin pumps:
Many thanks for the very useful info and pointers to previous discussions about the challenges dealing with the fuel hoses/pipes and the fuel tank. Am ordering the necessary replacement parts. Can't imagine that I need to do this again before Rose retires. The mechanic wished there were a window in the cabin from the top that facilitated access to the pumps. Anyway, he will soon become a Jaguar specialist after his brave attempt to save Rose.
10-28-2016, 11:56 AM
1995 XJR6 Electrical Woes
