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Calling all brains! 01 XJ8 Wont start **not your typical problem**

XJ XJ8 / XJR ( X308 ) 1997 - 2003

Calling all brains! 01 XJ8 Wont start **not your typical problem**

 
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Old 02-11-2015, 12:59 PM
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Exclamation Calling all brains! 01 XJ8 Wont start **not your typical problem**

Hey All-

I would like to start by thanking this community. You all have helped me on various occasions with almost every project on my car. My many thanks to all who actively participate.

Ok this is an atypical situation. I have a 2001 XJ8 Base 112k Condition- Clean

I drove this car to a shop to have it inspected and have a new set of tires mounted. All went well. When I went to pick up the car, the store manager asked me if I had ever had trouble with the car not starting or if it had been running poorly. I answered truthfully "no", to both reports.

The car has been running great, and has had no issues to report.

Symptom- Cranks but wont start.

Tested-
All fuses and relays are functioning properly.
No error codes
Fuel pump is running
45psi of fuel pressure at the rail
Injectors are firing
Spark plugs are wet with fuel
We have spark *spark is orange not white/blue*
We have compression
Mass airflow sensor is clean
Throttle body is clear from carbon build up
Air intake is clean
The grounds in the trunk and under the hood are clean/corrosion free
Butterfly valve motor is functioning
Security functions are enabled and working properly
Ignition activates in "P" and "N"
Battery tested ok

My current logic line- Test the cam position sensors, crank position sensors. If those check out, install a new Ignition Control Module. Run _all_ tests again.

Thanks again. Please help I am shipwrecked.

Mitch E (upstate NY)
 
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  #2  
Old 02-11-2015, 01:43 PM
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My first guess would be bore wash https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...solved-132896/ but you say you have compression?
 
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Old 02-11-2015, 03:51 PM
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Yes there is compression. I will be running a test tomorrow. However, the car turns over as it should. (Does not spin free, it cranks.)

I will re post the compression figures tomorrow. However I am confident that they are well within the range for fire.
 
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Old 02-11-2015, 05:14 PM
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If you have spark and you and you have fuel then it is likely bore wash. It does not make sense that the cam position sensors, crank position sensors, or Ignition Control Module suddenly failed and I don't think you would have spark if any of those 3 did fail.


If the shop briefly started the car when cold, pulled it into a bay and shut it off and then the problem started then bore wash does make sense.
 
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Old 02-11-2015, 07:39 PM
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Brain reporting for duty sir!

Try a hard reset and cranking with the plugs out to clear any fuel.
 
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Old 02-12-2015, 06:09 PM
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Ok. I haven't been able to run a proper compression test. However, the engine feels like it has compression. Ill run another test tomorrow.

Today I got new plugs, did a couple cranks to clean the old fuel out, swapped in new plugs, did a hard reset and cranked again. Spit and a sputter but nothing more of note.

Its still dead. I am really bummed out today.

I feel like I should still test the sensors but, I also agree that if it were any of those I wouldn't have any spark at all and the engine would have thrown the code immediately.

My other thought is that it may be a bad ground. The car is very clean. However, I cannot verify all of the grounds.I know that there are upwards of 30 ground points on the car and I know the location of about six of them.

New ideas please help. I will try to get to your suggestions as fast as possible, I don't have a garage and it is winter. The next ten days here in NY are going to be single digits.
 
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Old 02-12-2015, 09:42 PM
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If you have "Engine Failsafe Mode", try disconnecting the battery and trying again. And again. Or you can just continue turning the key off and on until that light goes away. Or follow these steps in the following links:

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...failure-83389/

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...ank-you-95100/
 
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Old 02-13-2015, 03:01 AM
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If it's bore wash you've not done anything like enough to fix it and indeed could expect what occurred.
 
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Old 02-13-2015, 07:28 AM
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Are you in Utica , NY ? Must be a typo in your location. Anyway, why not go through the bore wash fix scenario, just to rule it out since you can't test the compression. The other clue looks like yellow spark. Not sure what would cause weak spark across all cylinders. Maybe someone else has seen this ?
 
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Old 02-13-2015, 11:10 AM
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I am not very knowledgeable on the immobilizer system (it is in the right passenger footwell Bulkhead, see the owners manual); but is it possible this needs to be reset? You have fuel on the rails, but the immobilizer shuts down the injectors (I think).

Worth a shot. Second, try holding the accelerator all the way to the floor and crank it over a few times.
 
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Old 02-13-2015, 04:39 PM
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Hey Guys-

Thanks a bunch for all of the input I really appreciate the ideas and new thinking directions. As for Compression. We've got 130+ psi across the board. I addressed the potential Bore Wash problem by, -Removing all plugs -pulled fuel pump relay -cranked several times -installed fresh plugs -try to restart
*the 130psi I pulled out today* *the above test was run last night*

@Jimmy L - Yes, Im in Utica, NY. Apologies for that misspell. Thanks for acknowledging that low spark. I feel like thats a huge clue.
@JagV8- If there is compression that eliminates Bore Wash, correct? The cylinders were dry (of fuel) when I went to restart. If I thought there was compression, that seems like Bore Wash would be eliminated beyond a reasonable doubt..?
@ianclements - I have no dash warnings or indications. In addition the car hasn't thrown any fault codes.
@Jhartz- The immobilizer had come up. I used a mechanic stethoscope to listen to each injector (tick, tick) and my plugs are still wet with fuel. I did do some cranks with the throttle to the floor after I installed the new plugs. Same results.

Does everyone agree that none of the sensors would create these symptoms?

Thanks everyone,

-Mitch
 
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Old 02-13-2015, 05:26 PM
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Sorry for sending you On a wild goose chase. To review: you have fuel, you have ignition, compression. It is timing or weak spark.

Tensioners changed?

Old battery?
 
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Old 02-13-2015, 07:25 PM
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Timing had popped into my head. I don't think the behavior really measures up. I don't hear any odd engine noise, no clacking or anything. My compression test came back solid. I never lost pressure just gained it.

As far as the battery goes its not that young, but I've had a charger in the trunk pretty much the whole time, even while cranking, because its really cold.

Where can I look for weak spark? What should I look at for testing?

Thanks,

-M
 
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Old 02-13-2015, 07:59 PM
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When you changed the plugs, did you disconnect the connectors from the coils, or just lift them and the wiring out of the way? Look for a pinched wire where the coils are bolted down.


Of course, none of that explains why the tire shop asked you if you have had trouble starting before. How soon before the problem started did you buy gas?
 
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Old 02-14-2015, 03:00 AM
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Hi Mike-

Thanks for joining in, I need the help.
My removal was:
-Unbolt coil pack
-Un clip coil pack
-Remove Plug
-new plug *never seize *electrical grease
-coil pack back in
-Electrical grease on clip
-re-clip
-re-tighten

I labeled each pack on each bank (2,4,6,8 driver, 1,3,5,7 passenger)

To determine if I had spark in the beginning I just used one plug a coil pack, but by now we've had a random sampling of 4 total plugs along both banks.

Gas question: Water in the gas? I had though of that. I tested for fuel pressure at the rail. But I had driven it home in a snowstorm a few days prior and filled up there. I had about a quarter tank left when I took it to the shop. (Just a tire shop) Hadn't had any reportable trouble running that tank of fuel.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

-M
 
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Old 02-14-2015, 06:57 PM
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I question the Never Seize. I think it is conductive causing a short. Bulb Grease is a clear silicone dielectric. What color is the never seize?
 
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Old 02-14-2015, 07:01 PM
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Look closely at the coil wire harness at each coil. I had managed to pinch a wire under the metal frame of the coil, so make sure you don't have a pinched wire. It was surprisingly easy to do during the reinstallation of the coils after changing my plugs.
 
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Old 02-14-2015, 08:00 PM
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Hey Mike-

Def no pinched wires in that set up. Its weak spark (orange not white) across all 8. Never Seize (a very light amount) on just the threads of the plugs. Dielectric (again light amount) on the plug ends and on the electrical connection of the coil to the harness.

Happy Valentines Day everyone!

Thanks,

-M
 
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Old 02-15-2015, 06:28 AM
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OK, so what connector did you lean on while working on the coil paks?
Or is this a bad coincidence?
Run some gas out of the fuel test port into a glass to check for water.
 
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Old 02-15-2015, 04:59 PM
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Default My 2000 van den plaz xj8 had same problem

I changed all my plugs after hearing about the washdown problem ( dealer has a reflash to curb it BTW ) sputtered, etc, replaced the air induction ( plastic thing that goes to throttle body ) mine was cracked, got it from partsgeek.com for about 50 usd, anyway, now I HAD a perfectly running xj8- one week later- NO- fuel- or very little-it had some when you first checked at port, but..., anyways right now I am trying to find an easier way to access the fuel lines- figured I could remove the rear seat back- cut a low hole-DONE, add patch, except, seatback will not come out ? Help me help you -LOL- Point is I believe you may have more than 1 problem, 27 year ford tech, see it a lot-GL
 

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