Troubleshooting 2000 v8 vanden plas tensioner failure
I am fully aware that I need to at some point very soon get the secondary plastic tensioners replaced on my Jag. In my ignorance, I figured I had many years before it was necessary (low miles) and had no engine noise. Now having read extensively on our site I know that preventive the preventative repair is way past overdue, assuming the owners before me had not done it previously. My problem is it is misfiring and going into the limp mode after it runs a short while. So far the suggestions here have been the battery health, the camshaft position sensor, and secondary tensioner failure. I know my new battery is good. The camshaft position sensor is in play but my big fear is that the tensioners have failed and are causing the misfire.
The car was in limp mode, running roughly. I cleared the codes and decided to crank it fearing the worst possible, having just read extensively about the dreaded plastic tensioners. I was out of the limp mode, it cranked and ran smoothly not showing the previous rough idle. I was surprised. This is my troubleshooting question. I want to be able to try to solve my problem with a running engine. If the tensioner was badly damaged or broken would it crank and run smoothly or at least way way more smooth than it did previously? In my previous testing after clearing the codes, it runs smoothly and had to run it up to 2500 rpm numerous time to get it to go into limp mode. With these conditions do you think the tensioners are broken? To me, it seems they couldn't be broken but I want to be sure the car can be repaired and I'd like to be able the drive it so that my decision to repair the tensioners won't be throwing good money after bad. All opinions help. I plan to make another post if appropriate after this question is answered, I'll drive and get my codes for a fresh start. To me, it's very disappointing that Jag who has had so many innovations in the auto industry and put so much art into that design would put our a powertrain with two fatal flaws like the A-drum in the transmission (fixed previously) and the plastic tensioners, just a shame. Will P |
My worry would be that it has jumped one tooth. Another and the engine is trash.
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Jag V8, could be but if so why smooth then rough, clear codes and smooth. If the timing is off even by one tooth would it always be off by one tooth and running consistently rough, that may be naive. Wouldn't there have to be tremendous slack in the timing chain? Now I've never even seen it except in pictures. Forgive my inexperience, please!
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Are there any horrendous sounds coming from the engine? It sounds to me that there might be a coil going out. Have you had a scan done on the engine for any pending codes?
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Originally Posted by Robman25
(Post 1903271)
Are there any horrendous sounds coming from the engine? It sounds to me that there might be a coil going out. Have you had a scan done on the engine for any pending codes?
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Are you able to remove cam cover and look? That to me is the only way be certain. Another check is to shut it off and disconnect the mafs plug when it's running rough, then restart.
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I assisted in trouble shooting a Super V8 Daimler some months ago, which was perfectly drivable, sometimes threw a Camshaft position code, was lacking power, but was running smooth (although with a bit of ripple at idle sometimes).
Left bank was one tooth off though .. What I want to say is, seems symptoms can come in various forms, don't gamble with tensioners. |
Originally Posted by RJ237
(Post 1903297)
Are you able to remove cam cover and look? That to me is the only way be certain. Another check is to shut it off and disconnect the mafs plug when it's running rough, then restart.
Also, what would I look for then after the jag is restarted? A few years ago I was more able to do a lot more stuff but these days I'm having to pace myself more. Thanks, Will P. |
Originally Posted by ericjansen
(Post 1903346)
I assisted in trouble shooting a Super V8 Daimler some months ago, which was perfectly drivable, sometimes threw a Camshaft position code, was lacking power, but was running smooth (although with a bit of ripple at idle sometimes).
Left bank was one tooth off though .. What I want to say is, seems symptoms can come in various forms, don't gamble with tensioners. Thanks, Will P |
Originally Posted by RJ237
(Post 1903297)
Are you able to remove cam cover and look? That to me is the only way be certain. Another check is to shut it off and disconnect the mafs plug when it's running rough, then restart.
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New gaskets are a good idea, but not 100% necessary if just popping off the cam covers to do a check. I didn't install new gaskets the first time I removed the covers to see if I had the old-style tensioners (I did - and they were disintegrating).
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Not necessarily, but you need to clean the surfaces and apply more RTV at the joint between the head and the timing case cover. When you replace the tensioners, which I suspect you will have to do, get new gaskets.
If you are well endowed financially, find a trusted Jag mechanic. If not, plan on maintaining the car with help from the forum. |
Originally Posted by Samilcar
(Post 1903406)
New gaskets are a good idea, but not 100% necessary if just popping off the cam covers to do a check. I didn't install new gaskets the first time I removed the covers to see if I had the old-style tensioners (I did - and they were disintegrating).
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A bad battery can cause all manner of weird effects and it simply isn't worth having one.
E.g. coils can't fire properly. Result is bad running. The list for a bad battery means first thing is get rid. |
Originally Posted by JagV8
(Post 1903485)
A bad battery can cause all manner of weird effects and it simply isn't worth having one.
E.g. coils can't fire properly. Result is bad running. The list for a bad battery means first thing is get rid. (Hoping my symptoms indicated they were not so far gone that I shouldn't even drive and do the test!) |
I am not sure why you had to start a new thread for the same problem. But, it is fairly easy to remove the cam cover on the right side. Just be careful with the tubing from the air filter housing to the throttle body. Unplug the MAF (might clean it); using a powered screwdriver and a 1/4" drive with a 6 or 8mm socket (memory is sliding south), undo the covers, undo the hold down straps to the coils, remove the coils (check for corrosion where they attach to the plug), lay the coils and wiring aside (carefully), remove the plugs (check for oil), undo the bolts to the cam cover using your electric screwdriver after breaking the tension with 1/4" ratchet, pull it off carefully, be careful of the bolt retainers and positioning of the gasket (I reused my gasket, no reason not to if your are careful) -- check the tensioners for breaks (lots of threads, with tons of pictures of what to look for). Using a 24mm socket on the crank, turn the engine to check the alignment of the cams (lots of threads and picture to show you what to look for). If they are split; quit, order new parts (Christopher), new plugs too. If you are lucky, you will find metal tensioners (as did a friend of mine a few years ago).
But lots of things can be causing your problem: it is just this issue and maybe a bad head gasket, that are terribly damaging. Later, new plugs, new fuel filter, new MAF, clean throttle, yada yada . . as time, body, and money permit. But bad secondary tensioners are fatal. One of the old timers on this forum used to note that the most important tool in your tool box is patience. This is an easy fix: with patience. |
Originally Posted by Jhartz
(Post 1903662)
I am not sure why you had to start a new thread for the same problem. But, it is fairly easy to remove the cam cover on the right side. Just be careful with the tubing from the air filter housing to the throttle body. Unplug the MAF (might clean it); using a powered screwdriver and a 1/4" drive with a 6 or 8mm socket (memory is sliding south), undo the covers, undo the hold down straps to the coils, remove the coils (check for corrosion where they attach to the plug), lay the coils and wiring aside (carefully), remove the plugs (check for oil), undo the bolts to the cam cover using your electric screwdriver after breaking the tension with 1/4" ratchet, pull it off carefully, be careful of the bolt retainers and positioning of the gasket (I reused my gasket, no reason not to if your are careful) -- check the tensioners for breaks (lots of threads, with tons of pictures of what to look for). Using a 24mm socket on the crank, turn the engine to check the alignment of the cams (lots of threads and picture to show you what to look for). If they are split; quit, order new parts (Christopher), new plugs too. If you are lucky, you will find metal tensioners (as did a friend of mine a few years ago).
But lots of things can be causing your problem: it is just this issue and maybe a bad head gasket, that are terribly damaging. Later, new plugs, new fuel filter, new MAF, clean throttle, yada yada . . as time, body, and money permit. But bad secondary tensioners are fatal. One of the old timers on this forum used to note that the most important tool in your tool box is patience. This is an easy fix: with patience. Right now, I won't try to crank it, I'll keep reading and build up some info. I appreciate yours and the other post I'm getting and will get. All opinions appreciated. I'm more patient these days and with this car, it's an indulgence like for many people on this site from what they say. An indulgence that I'd rather keep it's a viable choice. Will P |
New info
Well, I did some reading and thinking. One of my main sources was the 21-page long post started by Brake buster about fixing his tensioner. Man if that article doesn't give you the message then nothing can. They are like a serious and eventfully deadly flaw that will eventually kill your Jag of our “ilk”. Jaguar should have recalled and fixed every car sold with that curse, period. Mine will eventually fail and to have peace of mind you have to get them replaced ASAP, period again.
When I started this post I did it to see if it was the tensioner causing my problems. But, after reading the shop manual and a lot of info on our site I decided that if I keep the car they must be replaced. After standing over my open hood for a half an hour and going through all the steps, I also decided that I couldn't do it my self. Up until a few years ago with the help of members here and the info compiled here, I somehow replaced the A drum in my transmission as it was broken. I had to remove completely twice and take it apart twice to re-do. And, back it off completely two more times and all the work that entails. So, the spirit was willing and with help, got it done. That same guy wanted to do the tensioners, but with my health and situation, I just know better. So I decided to clear the codes and crank her up and see what happens. Cranked easily with absolutely no engine noise (loose chain or broken tensioner) and after a few minutes (the manual says two and a half minutes) the restricted light came on. It seemed a but rougher with a low idle, about 600 RPM or so. I cut her off and read the codes and they were P301--- cyl A1 misfire P304---cyl A4 misfire P306--- cyl B2 misfire P307--- cyl B3 misfire P1316--- excessive emissions P1000---all test not run This is two cylinders on the driver's side and two on the passenger side, all of these are in the A bank. The B bank that controls cylinders B1, A2, A3 and B4 have again two on each side had no faults. With those codes and absolutely no engine rattle on startup, it's got to be something else, a least that seems logical to me. I will make the decision about the tensioners soon but I would like to convince myself that the car runs well, after just putting new tires on and one of those huge batteries in. Any new ideas after seeing my new fresh info. Thanks, Will P |
Will sorry to rain on it, but the codes you've posted are classic 'chain skip' codes, the cam position sensor and crank position sensor have reported an issue on the A bank, there's pretty much no doubt in my mind that's secondary tensioner failure.
Hate to say it but the next startup could be curtains - likened to Russian roulette... Take your time finding a local shop that can work on these cars, a very similar engine is the Lincoln LS so a Ford tech experienced with those engines will be familiar with the Jag and probably way cheaper, so don't go 'it's a Jag' =$$$$ |
Originally Posted by Sean B
(Post 1906494)
Will sorry to rain on it, but the codes you've posted are classic 'chain skip' codes, the cam position sensor and crank position sensor have reported an issue on the A bank, there's pretty much no doubt in my mind that's secondary tensioner failure.
Hate to say it but the next startup could be curtains - likened to Russian roulette... Take your time finding a local shop that can work on these cars, a very similar engine is the Lincoln LS so a Ford tech experienced with those engines will be familiar with the Jag and probably way cheaper, so don't go 'it's a Jag' =$$$$ |
Originally Posted by RJ237
(Post 1903297)
Are you able to remove cam cover and look? That to me is the only way be certain. Another check is to shut it off and disconnect the mafs plug when it's running rough, then restart.
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I still haven't made my final decision on the repairs. I was hoping that we'd get a few more post on this subject. So far we've had about 500 views so the subject must be of interest to lots of folks. Everything I have learned about Jags is from this site. Like others have said, it's the best I've experienced on the web. I will be back here to post my final decision and if I repair or not I'll post the decisions. Thanks for viewing. Will P
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What is the reason for procrastinating?
The primary and secondary chains, guides and tensioners are not going to fix or replace themselves. Remove the Bank1 cam cover and see if the flat timing marks on the cams line up correctly. |
Originally Posted by NBCat
(Post 1909134)
What is the reason for procrastinating?
The primary and secondary chains, guides and tensioners are not going to fix or replace themselves. Remove the Bank1 cam cover and see if the flat timing marks on the cams line up correctly. |
Will,
The OBD codes you pulled indicate to me your secondary tensioners are playing up, causing those codes to be thrown after running your engine from cold to warm. If you're not fit enough to take on this job yourself, find a shop you can afford to do it for you ASAP; other jobs such as water pump and thermostat tower; transmission A-Drum are non-fatal and can wait. What are you waiting for ? ? ? |
Originally Posted by Pristine97XK8Convertible
(Post 1909176)
Will,
The OBD codes you pulled indicate to me your secondary tensioners are playing up, causing those codes to be thrown after running your engine from cold to warm. If you're not fit enough to take on this job yourself, find a shop you can afford to do it for you ASAP; other jobs such as water pump and thermostat tower; transmission A-Drum are non-fatal and can wait. What are you waiting for ? ? ? My quandary is to put the money in and then hope this is not a Money Pit ( I'm not wealthy) or to sell it very cheaply as a nice project car for someone. That would be painful because it is so pretty and fun but I drive so little and I've got a nice 2001 DeVille that is quite a babe herself with a 300 hp engine. I hate to let Jag go! Will P |
Originally Posted by Will P
(Post 1909114)
I still haven't made my final decision on the repairs.
I understand your limitations, but maybe you can get someone more technically capable to have a look for a coffee or a beer? Will save you the transport initially. All they need to bring is some basic tools, and remove the cover on the effected bank, 2 hours max incl. rotating, checking and reinstall. It will give you the reassurance on the issue, and a much better base for your further decisions and purchase of parts. |
Originally Posted by ericjansen
(Post 1909339)
As others have said ....
I understand your limitations, but maybe you can get someone more technically capable to have a look for a coffee or a beer? Will save you the transport initially. All they need to bring is some basic tools, and remove the cover on the effected bank, 2 hours max incl. rotating, checking and reinstall. It will give you the reassurance on the issue, and a much better base for your further decisions and purchase of parts. I'm 99% sure they haven't been done and if the jag is mine or not, I do not want to ruin the engine. I'm not willing to gamble on it not happening. Like the Asian philosopher said, once bitten by a snake it makes you afraid of rope. After my trials and struggle with the A drum in the transmission, I have heard the warnings of the consensus here on the pitfalls of this A27. And yes if I could find someone to peak at the culprits that would give me some assurance but now I'm just trying to find someone to work on it and if it would be for a reasonable amount. Thanks, Will P. |
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.jag...f79537f80e.jpg
My Quandary! Will P (They must have had it repainted at some time.) |
Finally, I've come to a decision on my Jag. I took a while since my last post because I didn't want to make a snap decision. Also, I wanted to communicate my reasoning, mainly in appreciation for the knowledge and help I have received here. There may also be other owners or prospective ones who could use a small bit of my perspective.
Even at this point, if I lucked out and found an indie mechanic who would fix my upper and lower tensioners for $1200, I would do it if that would give me years of carefree driving and it would drive as well as it did when I bought it at 77,000 miles. Yes, that would be worth it. But, as you know from my post here, I have a a-drum repaired transmission, a risky water pump, ignition coils that go bad, a potential problematic throttle-body, a bad transmission pressure valve design to be replaced hopefully sooner than later and so on. For many on this site, these are fixes you could do or you have a mechanic you trust and can afford. I just put all new tires and a new battery in and that was $500 that won't be reflected in what I can get for it. I'm going to put it up for sale as a project car for someone so inclined. It is not a perfect car but she is and has been a beauty to me. Someone who can do the tensioners might just wind up with a wonderful bargain. The car should be carried or towed from here me as that is the advice I received here. I have no idea what to ask, I'll start a new post and ask for help as that might not get much viewing in this post. I'll then put it here in our want ads and on the net. Thanks so much for your help. Again, this is the most helpful site I have used on the web. Will P |
I wish I had room at my condo: I would fly into Alabama, change the tensioners in your driveway and drive it home. From the wheels, it appears this is a VdP model.
Makes me wonder what you think you can buy, as nice, for $1300 or so (?). |
Originally Posted by Jhartz
(Post 1916848)
I wish I had room at my condo: I would fly into Alabama, change the tensioners in your driveway and drive it home. From the wheels, it appears this is a VdP model.
Makes me wonder what you think you can buy, as nice, for $1300 or so (?). |
The solution to my problem was.......
I did sell the Jaguar to a very mechanical guy and nice guy from England. And how it runs today, he said: “like a dream.” The final solution that came to me from the group is not to run it and fix them. Well, as it turns out, my initial guess was one of the closest. The gentleman I sold the car to wound up with a super bargain. He came from up north to Montgomery and was going to fix the timing chain. To his and my surprise someone had already updated and were all the new ones. Turnout my problem was one cylinder had water in the plug hole from when a plastic coolant hose had broken on a short road trip and the spark plugs were toasted 83,000 mile and never changed. He then drove it a very long way home like a dream. I just wanted to share this with my forum members to make a small contribution to the already wealth of info on the site. And, I continue to appreciate all who posted on my problems as well as the moderators and those who have contributed to the stored information here. Thanks again. Will P and War Eagle Former owner of a 2000 Jaguar XJ8 vanden plas as shown in pictures above |
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but its a shame you didn’t follow up on my post regarding the coils, a quick check on those would have found the water :( |
Originally Posted by Robman25
(Post 1964820)
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but its a shame you didn’t follow up on my post regarding the coils, a quick check on those would have found the water :( |
Two things that come from this: 1. you let us know what the issue really was: keeps the learning process working; 2. A reminder, again, to check all.
A couple of years ago, over on the XK8 forum a gent had the same problem as you. Misfires in each cylinder: everybody (watashi wa, too!) jumped on the tensioners, since it is the classic. His coils were badly corroded from a previous break in a radiator hose . . . cleaned the coils and good to go. But, he too, pulled the right side cam cover to assure himself he had the third generation tensioners. Pays to check. As these cars begin to age out: the issues are becoming more and more unique and often as not, one offs. TSBs and repair docs have their purpose up to a point and then it becomes just difficult detective work. |
Originally Posted by Jhartz
(Post 1965137)
Two things that come from this: 1. you let us know what the issue really was: keeps the learning process working; 2. A reminder, again, to check all.
A couple of years ago, over on the XK8 forum a gent had the same problem as you. Misfires in each cylinder: everybody (watashi wa, too!) jumped on the tensioners, since it is the classic. His coils were badly corroded from a previous break in a radiator hose . . . cleaned the coils and good to go. But, he too, pulled the right side cam cover to assure himself he had the third generation tensioners. Pays to check. As these cars begin to age out: the issues are becoming more and more unique and often as not, one offs. TSBs and repair docs have their purpose up to a point and then it becomes just difficult detective work. |
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