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89 xjs 1 bank not working, cold exhaust, right side, PLEASE HELP!

XJS ( X27 ) 1975 - 1996 3.6 4.0 5.3 6.0

89 xjs 1 bank not working, cold exhaust, right side, PLEASE HELP!

 
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Old 04-29-2019, 02:23 PM
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Default 89 xjs 1 bank not working, cold exhaust, right side, PLEASE HELP!

PLEASE HELP! I don't know what to do.

I have a 1989 XJS 2 door Convertible 12 cyl Lucas Ignition.

I think my passenger side(right side USA) bank is not firing. I have almost no power and no acceleration. The drivers side has hot exhaust coming out, the passengers side has cold exhaust coming out.

Here is what I've done so far I removed the fuel line at the fuel rail on the passenger side(right side), turned the key one click and fuel sprayed out. So I have fuel going to the rail.

I yanked one wire from the distributor cap that was going to a spark plug on the suspected dead bank and put a spark plug tester on it. The tester said there was current going to the plug.

My next guess is there's no electrical going to the injectors on that side telling the injectors to fire. I read about the "2PR Lucas Power Resistor." I found it behind the headlight but there's a bunch of stuff in the way.
Tonight I'm going to get to it, pull the connector and clean it with contact cleaner.
But I've already listened to the injectors with a stethoscope/needle and I could hear them all 12 of them clicking on both banks, so I assume it's getting the proper electrical.

I don't know what else to do?

Does anybody have any suggestions as to what else it might be? What should I do?
(I'm attaching some pics of the engine below)


Fuel injector and part of the fuel rail.

Fuel injector

Detached that fuel line to the fuel rail and fuel was pumping out properly.

Injector Amp, thought i'd throw a pic in just for reference.

Lucas distributor cap where I removed a plug wire and used a spark plug tester to see if current was getting to the plugs

That box mounted to the frame behind the headlight assembly is where the resistor is that I was going to clean tonight.
 
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Old 04-29-2019, 07:05 PM
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Hi Thisorthat

That Resistor Pack needs to come out for a Clean even though its bit of a PIA Job

If you can take the Injector Leads off the Bank that isn't working see if you are getting 12 Volts with your Meter on Page:11 of my 'Cherry Blossom' Restoration thread: Click on the Link Below

Testing the Fuel Injectors for 12volts page: 11

Cleaning the Resistor Pack where a dirty Plug and Socket can play havoc with the Firing of the Injectors

Location and Cleaning of the Resistor Pack which can play Havoc with the Firing of the Injectors page: 11

Also pull out the Front Injector on the Bank that isn't Firing which I believe is 'A' Bank on your Car and this can be done without taking off the Fuel Rail and see if it will squirt Petrol into a Jar when you turn the Key

WARNING! Pull the 'King Lead' out of the Dizzy so that the Car cannot Start to avoid the possibility of setting you car on Fire!

Also on Page:11 of my 'Cherry Blossom' Restoration thread Testing Injector Firing

The Good News is that Greg and Grant 'The Wizard of OZ' both have Lucas Cars and if they can't get your Car Started then the Engine must be missing!
 
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Old 04-29-2019, 10:02 PM
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Orangeblossom, thank you so much for the pointers.

To do the resistor pack, all I do is remove the resistors two bolts, disconnect the wires, spray with contact cleaner(I'll use MAF cleaner), and scrub with a toothbrush. Is that right?

Do I need to do any of this if I can hear the injectors clicking using a stethoscope with a needle. Clearly all of the injectors on both sides make the exact same sound so I'm pretty sure they're firing.

As for the checking that first injector I'm pretty sure I'll have to yank the entire fuel rack which I'm completely dreading having to do...I'll take a look at it again.

I wish there was a good mechanic in my area in St. Louis, Missouri, that could work on my Jag. I can't find anybody that even wants to touch it.

Thanks for responding. I was worried nobody was going to respond.
 
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Old 04-30-2019, 12:08 AM
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Here is everything I've done.

-I was able to pull the electrical connector from the first injector on the suspect bank(passengers right side). I tested the voltage and it tested to 13.9 volts with the car started. It also didn't affect anything which confirms that the passenger side bank is not doing anything right now.

-I then pulled the entire first injector completely out and set it into a plastic cup. I started the engine for maybe a second. A small amount of fuel was in the cup. So gas is getting to the injectors and they're spitting the gas out into the engine.

-I then removed the air filter cover and air filter, and moved some wires and unhooked a hose to get to the resistor. I got lucky and the bottom bolt was missing and only had to remove the top exposed bolt. No idea how I would have gotten to that bottom bolt if it was there. I removed the resistor. I sprayed it religiously with MAF and scrubbed with a toothbrush for ten minutes. I also sprayed and scrubbed the wire harness that plugs into it.

-After that I let it dry for 15 minutes, then I plugged everything back in and started it up. No change. It still runs hot on the drivers side and cold on the passengers side. I let it run for 5 minutes to see if there would be any change and there was none.

What should I do now?

(As a side note the air filter had oil in it, oil was in the bottom of the airfilter housing, and it was dripping all over stuff below it. Really strange. I'll attach photos of that as well.)


Hooked a voltmeter to the first injector on the bad bank. It read 13.9 volts while running.

Removed entire injector and put it in a plastic cup. Started the car and fuel spit out of the injector into the cup.

Removed injector from frame. Luckily bottom bolt was missing only had to remove top bolt.

Resistor pulled out of car.

Connector on bottom of the resistor before I cleaned it. Doesn't look to bad.

Wiring harness connector that plugs into the resistor connector before I cleaned it. Also doesn't look that dirty.

Bottom of resistor connector after I cleaned it. Doesn't look much different.

Wiring harness that goes into resistor connector after I cleaned it. Also not much difference.

(BELOW are pictures of the oil in the air filter, housing, and leaking.)


Oil at bottom of air filter. It's also in the housing and dripping over stuff below it.
 
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Old 04-30-2019, 12:43 AM
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Being a Lucas ignition car I would be suspecting a fuel issue, unless you have 6 dead spark plugs and/or ignition leads. Or a bad ECU.

Pull ALL of the injector leads off the A bank so you have no injectors plugged in on the RH bank. Start the car and plug them in ONE at a time and listen for a change in the engine note, disconnect it and move onto the next injector and so on. This will verify if ANY of the cylinders are firing on the A bank. If none are firing I would suspect an ECU issue.

If there is at least ONE firing then, plug everything back in and start the car and let it idle for a minute. shut it down and pull one of the spark plugs, if the plug is dry then the issue is fuel if wet then you have an ignition issue.

The ECU fires the injectors in batches of 3 and each bank has separate outputs on the ECU. Pull the ECU connector and clean the terminals the same as you did with the resistors. The ECU is in the boot above and to the right of the battery.

Do you have access to a noid light?
 
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Old 04-30-2019, 12:51 AM
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T or T
A few ideas:
I suggest that you test for spark at the plug end of the plug leads in the side that is not firing. Pull a lead off the plug and hold it near an earth point (eg the inlet manifold) and see if you get a nice big fat blue spark while someone turns the engine on the starter. Test as many as you can get to.
If OK, I am worried about the two leads that go into the Lucas amplifier box in one of your photos, it looks like the connector they should be set in has broken off. Be 100% sure that thee are making proper contact and are well insulated from each other. This plug brings the signal from the dizzy to the amplifier telling it when to spark the coil.
Remove the dizzy cap and look inside, you may have a carbon brush fault (the little carbon stick set in the top middle of the cap). Also clean up the rotor and cap contacts, if not renew both cap and rotor if you have never done so.
When did you last change the plugs? Pull some of the easier plugs on the non-firing bank and see if they are (a) wet and 9b) cold after running the engine for a few minutes.
Report back and the guys will go from there.
 

Last edited by Greg in France; 04-30-2019 at 12:54 AM.
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Old 04-30-2019, 02:16 AM
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Hi Thisorthat

The 'Dizzy Cap' is suspect like 'Greg' said, so that could be the first thing to look at but if its a genuine Marelli don't go chucking it in the bin, as it could be worth a couple of hundred dollars!

Could you tell us if your Car has been in regular use or laid up for a while?

Also like 'Greg' said, you really need to see a Spark on the actual Spark Plug rather than a Spark Tester

I'm hesitating to mention this because it could be Expensive but have you considered the possibility that you have a blocked CAT on the 'A' Bank Side?

Did something get progressively worse or did 'A' Bank suddenly shut down?

Taking out the Fuel Rail is not that difficult but if you decide to do that, then it would certainly pay you to change All the Spark Plugs, including the ones under the Air Con Pump which is a job that could take you all Weekend

Not exactly 'A Walk in the Park' kind of Job and could be one you wish you'd never started but a lot depends on how determined you are and whether or not you want to earn yourself a 'Right of Passage'
 
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Old 04-30-2019, 02:40 AM
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Warrjon,

Thanks for your input. Do I need to pull all of the injector leads off if I already listened with the stethoscope.

How do I pull a spark plug or plug wire without removing the entire fuel rail off? If I pull the fuel rail off how can I test the plug the way you're suggesting?

I thought the ECU was in the cabin on the passengers side by the passengers feet, next to the floor vents. Mine is hanging down right now with a bunch of wires attached. If that's not the ECU what is it? I'll attach a photo of what I'm talking about. Ok, I found what you're talking about next to the battery, I'll clean it in the morning(it's 2:20am here). What's the thing I attached below that's by the passengers legs?

I only saw and cleaned one resistor. Is there a second resistor I'm supposed to clean? Maybe that's the problem?

I don't have a noid light but I can buy one at Harbor Freight for $20-$30. I'll buy one if you think it'll help diagnose the problem.

I really want to get this thing in tip top shape.

Thanks so much I really appreciate the help.

John


This is by the passengers feet. What is this?
Then I'm gonna put new leather and repaint it. But I need to get all of the mechanical issues worked out first.
 
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Old 04-30-2019, 02:51 AM
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Greg in France,

Thanks for your suggestions.

Is there a way to get to the plugs without pulling the fuel rail off as well as a bunch of other stuff off?

I used a spark plug tester which I'll attach a picture of below. Is this not sufficient to let me know? I only used between the wire and the distributor cap.

I had a mechanic do the plugs and wires last summer, but have no problem doing them again.

Do I have to take the fuel rail off to get the distributor off? There's so many leads I'm afraid I'll not put them back in, in the right order.

I'll have my brother come over tomorrow and help me with some of these suggestions. He's a much more skilled mechanic then I am. I know enough just to really screw the car up, lol. Although I did fix my truck over the weekend(egr valve, map sensor, cleaned all the other sensors, etc)

Thanks for your suggestions,

JB


Spark plug tester I used. Will this do the job? It glowed in between the wire and the distributor cap.
 
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Old 04-30-2019, 03:11 AM
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Hey OB,

The distributor cap is Lucas not Marelli. Can I get to it without taking the whole fuel rail off?

The car has been both used and not used over the years. I purchased it in 1997 and was the second owner. I've had a lot of work done to it over the years. I got it with about 75,000 miles on it. I drove it a lot from 97 till about 2004. Then I drove it sporadically till about 2007. It was stored indoors from 2007-2015. It was started infrequently. I drove it a bit from 2015-2017. I hired this guy to do bodywork and fix stuff on the engine in 2017 but everything he did made things worse, he didn't do the work, then he stole my truck & credit cards and took off. Crazy story. I got the truck back but the jag needs bodywork, painting, and things reassembled. I've done some of the work myself but it's way over my head. I can't find anybody here locally that has experience with this car and will work on it. I don't want to get rid of it because she's my baby and we've been through a lot together. So I need to at least figure out some of these issues so I can get it to a point where I can take it to a mechanic to do the more obvious things, unless you think I can fix it all. The car does start currently and I can drive it. It's very slow. At a stoplight I can floor it and it'll take 10-15 seconds before I can get to local traffic speeds. I wouldn't risk taking it on a highway. I haven't driven it on any roads since last summer. It's garaged and every so often I start it up, and drive it around the neighborhood, but no major trips. I hope that answers your question about how often it's been used.

Can I get to the spark plugs without removing the fuel rails?

It hasn't been right in awhile. But it seems like it all of a sudden got to the point where I lost all acceleration and power. As far as the cold exhaust, I'm not sure exactly when that happened.

I've suspected the cats for awhile. I'd love to have them gutted. But I doubt that's the problem because there's a significant volume of air coming out of the exhaust it's just cold and puttering. If the cats were clogged I'd have no or very little air coming out and it'd still be warm, right?

I did forget to mention that I took it to an air conditioning specialist last summer. When I pulled into his drive the car bottomed out pretty badly. I ordered in a new compressor that he was supposed to install. He installed it, charged me $200 for the installation, and told me it wouldn't fix my AC, and that it'd cost another $1500 to fix. I started the car and there was a loud pinging noise, louder than I've ever heard from any car. It sounded like a jackhammer. I took it to a transmission shop and he put it on a lift and told me the transmission looked good, the bell wasn't damaged, etc. We opened the hood and huge sparks were arcing from the compressor that guy put in. I disconnected the AC immediately. It was really strange. I left there and as I drover it, the pinging would get loud, then I'd hit a bump and it'd get softer or go away. Eventually it stopped pinging all together.

Like I said this is my baby. I've had her over 20 years and I have some money now to restore her. I wish there was a good jaguar mechanic or I could fly one of you guys in to help me! lol.

Thanks,
JB
 
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Old 04-30-2019, 03:54 AM
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This is the AC ECU. The fuel ECU is in the boot to the right of the battery

Originally Posted by thisorthat View Post


This is by the passengers feet. What is this?
Then I'm gonna put new leather and repaint it. But I need to get all of the mechanical issues worked out first.
 
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Old 04-30-2019, 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by thisorthat View Post
Warrjon,

Thanks for your input. Do I need to pull all of the injector leads off if I already listened with the stethoscope.

How do I pull a spark plug or plug wire without removing the entire fuel rail off? If I pull the fuel rail off how can I test the plug the way you're suggesting?

.
If it were me I would pull the injector leads it'll take you 10min, then you will know which cylinders on the A bank are working or not. If no cylinders are firing it almost has to be fuel. There is only 1 reluctor and sensor in the dissy for all cylinders. It would be extremely unlikely for 6 spark plugs and/or leads to fail, or lose 6 teeth off the reluctor for 1 bank only.

If you have ALL cylinder on 1 bank not working you need to look at what is common to the A bank only and that is fuel.
 
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Old 04-30-2019, 07:27 AM
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Answering what you keep askin:

YES< the cap can be removed without removing the fuel rail, OR the Air Injection Rail, IF YOU HAVE THAT FITTED. Fiddly, HELL yes, Time consuming, YES again. Great care need so as NOT to crack that large Blue cap, OR damage th rotor tip as you wiggle the thing out of its prison.

Spark plugs. Again, YES, can be removed without fuel rail removal, easy, HELL NO. Easier with that cap off, but not easy. If you have the LARGE Black A/C compressor, #1 on each side is near impossible, sooooo, that compressor needs to be unbolted, belt tension released, and the compressor raised on wooden blocks, to give access to those 2 sparkers.

ALWAYS test for spark AT the plug end of the lead, and I always use a spark plug in the end of the suspect lead, OR, the module inside that Lucas Ignition Amp CAN be damaged. I do not ever use those testers, no faith at all, probably OK on old none electronic systems.

My PreHE, very different beast, has a habit of fouling spark plugs if it is NOT driven hard enough, so I run the engine at idle, and remove ONE injector plug at a time until I find the ones that are not making a difference, write down the clinder numbers, memory sucks, then shut it down, remove noted spark plugs, clean and reinstall, simple.

That same approach would be my way, and you may find that you have 3 or 4 at random that are misfiring.

Rare, never seen, a HE Lucas with one bank out.

HOWEVER

Cold exhaust one side, I have experienced, mongrel indeed. Then your market has so much emission stuff attached we dont.

Blocked exhaust, and in your case maybe Cat Converter has collapsed, and blocking things.

That will suck the power big time, and give that colder exhaust.

NEXT

The EFI loom, down in the bottom of Death Valley, may be shorting internally, BUT, you have 12 injectors clicking, BUT, are they clicking as designed, or just at random due to that loom?????. Warren's test procedure is sound, and I would do the same.

NEXT

TPS, Throttle Position Sensor, under the throttle capstan, is worn out, out of range adjustment, etc etc.Not convinced on the TPS, but I put it there as an item to check.
 
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Old 04-30-2019, 07:56 AM
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Hi Thisorthat

If you've got electrical problems

Warrjon is the 'Goto Guy' for that, who has helped me out on many occasions

Yes you can take the Spark Plugs out without removing the Fuel Rail although I find it easier if you do and while I agree it looks daunting, its really not that difficult and I had never worked on a Car before I joined this Forum, let alone a Jag or a V12

It took me 3 days to change the Plugs, which is probably a record for the Slowest Time and is a bit like trying to build a Ship in a Bottle

There are no quick fixes as you have to work slowly and methodically and take lots of photos, so you can remind yourself of how to put it all back together again

So its really a labour of love, or leave it alone!

Once you've got the Fuel Rail off then you can Clean the Injectors (instructions to do that to follow nearer the time) and then take out the Spark Plugs one at a time and slowly blocking off the empty holes with clean rag as you go

Because its all too easy to drop a Nut or a Washer down the empty hole and also you have to lift the Heavy Air Con motor up so that you can get to the plugs underneath, which is a little bit of a PIA Job

It really isn't that difficult but can be very frustrating if you are gagging to go for a drive, which is one of the reasons that some of us have more than one XJS so that you can have one to drive while the other one is broken down (I mean being Fixed!)

All part of the Fun of owning an XJS, as the next time you get Petrol and someone asked to have a look under the Hood, then you can take a perverse sort pleasure in not only watching their eyes roll

But also watching the blood drain out of their face, when they see that mass of wires and pipes on an Engine the Size of a Double Bed that only you know how to Fix!

So just don't over think it get Stuck in! and then in a Week you'll be all set to enjoy the Summer and also bask in the Satisfaction of doing something many 'Shops' can't do or don't want to touch

Loads of Help on the Forum, as you already know so what on earth could possibly go wrong?

Nothing! so what are you waiting for, pick up the Spanners and do it!

Very few on here would ever let a Garage or Shop anywhere near their Car!

Anything they can do you can do and you can do it better than they ever can!
 

Last edited by orangeblossom; 04-30-2019 at 08:00 AM.
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Old 04-30-2019, 11:51 AM
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Hi Thisorthat

On reflection Since 'Grant' also mentioned a possible problem with the CAT I am going to go Plus One with him on that as what Greg and Grant don't know about XJS's you don't need to know!
 
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Old 04-30-2019, 03:04 PM
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Can I disconnect in front of the pipes where the cat is without a lift? I would love to gut the cats anyway and remove a bunch of the stuff from the pipes.

-There are 4 different things in line. From the manifold back what is a resonator and what is a cat? How many are there of each? I assume the big long ones halfway down the car are the mufflers?

If I can disconnect between the manifold and the cats and hot exhaust comes out of both sides that solves a huge problem and answers a bunch of questions. The weird thing is on the passengers side that's cold there's twice as much air flow out of the exhaust as the side that's hot. The drivers side that has hot exhaust is about half the flow of the cold passengers side and comes out smooth and steady. The cold passengers side comes out stronger and pitter patters. Does that give any additional useful info?

I cleaned the ecu connectors on both sides. It did not make a difference. I removed the ecu and opened it and everything looks clean, no scortches or bad solder points, clean as a whistle. I tried taking a volt meter to see if i could get any ohm readings on anything that looked like it was in twos but I got no resistance at all on any of them, I was hoping maybe there was something on there I could just replace. I wish I had a good ecu I could plug in to see if that's the issue. They're pretty pricey online. I saw one for $60 but most are in the hundreds and I have no idea if any of them work either as they were just yanked out of dead cars.

I'm gonna pull the injector wires to the injectors and hook them up one by one tonight to see if it makes a difference. I am firmly convinced the entire bank is not firing, unless the cat on one side could make such a dramatic difference, but based on the amount of airflow alone it seems that the cat on the passengers side in an unlikely candidate.

Can you tell me how to pull the spark plugs without removing the fuel rail and a dozen other things to get to them? Is there a special tool I need? It doesn't seem possible.

Thanks

pics of ecu below

This has to be a replacement because GLB is a repair shop in town. I used them a few times about 15 years ago so they may have replaced it for me. I don't remember.

Clean as a whistle

other side of housing
 
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Old 04-30-2019, 03:46 PM
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Hi Thisorthat

I am not an Exhaust Expert so I don't want to put you wrong but the Cat is a Catalytic Converter, which you may or may not need in some parts of the USA

Doug or Jig Jag are two Guys who come to mind who would know as would many others but in the UK where I am we don't need them, if they were never fitted at the time of manufacture

Same goes for Mufflers which we call Exhausts, so better if you ask someone on your side of the Pond

As for taking the Plugs out, some are easy to get to and some of the others are not and so as to what Tool to use you sometimes have to improvise and make it up as you go along or else do what I did and take the Fuel Rail out

As well as anything else that gets in the way and as I may have mentioned before, changing all 12 Spark Plugs took me 3 days!
and did these on a one out one in basis

But when you put the New ones back be careful you don't Cross Thread them and don't put them in too tight, you only really need to nip them up, which somehow doesn't feel quite right as you might do them up tighter on a different type of Car

Just take it very Slowly and do one plug at a time and you will get there

Although right now I'm starting to think that one of your CATS may have melted, so take her to an Exhaust Shop and see what they think
 
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Old 04-30-2019, 05:23 PM
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I can't figure out how twice as much exhaust would be coming out of the cold side tail pipe if the cats were clogged on that side. Also it's puttering out of the cold side and it's smooth out of the hot side. Hopefully somebody else can tell me if this helps explain anything.

I'm trying to get a hold of another ecu to try and test it to see if it fixed the problem. It might take a few days for me to get a hold of one.

If I take the fuel rail off to do this, should I do this rebuild kit on the injectors or is that a waste of time?

https://www.ebay.com/i/173351026956?chn=ps

Tonight I'm going to pull the leads out of the injectors and then try them one at a time to see if they do anything. Is it possible that fuel is getting to the injectors, and the injectors are working, but it's not enough fuel or the injectors aren't putting out enough fuel on that side? So it shows some coming out but not enough.

Also what about timing. Even if there's compression, fuel, air, and spark, if the timing is off on one bank wouldn't it cause this to happen?

As far as emissions, it's a state by state issue. A car 20 years or older does not need an emissions test in my state.

Thanks again,
JB
 

Last edited by thisorthat; 04-30-2019 at 05:34 PM.
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Old 04-30-2019, 05:54 PM
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Fuel rail is a loop. Same supply to both sides. Fuel pressure good if one bank says so. Injectors can clog.

Injectors ticking. Getting grounds. ECU good. Itíll idle with no resistor pack at all. Donít do this though.

Check spark at the business end of each HT lead with a new plug, grounded to the chassis.

Good flow out both pipes. No melted cats.

To pull plugs, I use a quarter drive, 12Ē 1/4 extension and a u-jointed socket. A U-joint adapter and socket will work on most cylinders but not 1A, 1B, or 4B. The OEM tool will work ok. If you have it in your OEM toolkit.

Iím sure youíve checked the filter on the bad side.I suspect it would idle through the crossover tube if you cover the throttle body anyway.

No damage inside the dizzy. Right?

The injector assembly is off in 10 minutes here. 24 nuts and some wiggling. Leave it connected to fuel lines and injector harness. 2 bar clamps will hold it up, out of the vee. Ignition on. Do not start. Twist the throttle tower and all 12 should spray fuel. No real hazard here. A tissue under each catches the spray and shows positive proof of injector firing.

Timing is good on one bank. Good on both.

Honestly Im stumped. If you have fuel and spark then Iíd pull all 6 plugs in question, and do a compression check. Cam timing? Might be worthwhile to pull an easy one and check it first.
 

Last edited by JigJag; 04-30-2019 at 06:01 PM.
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Old 04-30-2019, 06:09 PM
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Since you say you can hear injectors clicking this may not be relevant but l believe battery voltage is normally present at both injector contacts with firing occurring when ecu grounds one contact so testing the way your pic indicates may not be indicative. You might also check your main efi relay in back and check the connection to spades in both "87" positions.(pink/black wires) One of these powers A bank injectors and the other B bank.
 
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Greg in France (05-01-2019)

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