Dealer Rant - Brakes
#1
07-18-2018, 11:57 AM
Dealer Rant - Brakes
I bought my 2011 XKR with 23,500 miles. At which time it had some issues and spent a lot of time with the Dealer Sharp Jaguar in Grand Rapids. In addition to there general incompetence in creating as many problems as they fixed, they are dishonest.
They stated quite clearly that it required new pads and rotors all around. Having inspected the car myself I ignored this recommendation. The XKR now has 65,000+ miles with the same pads and rotors and only this morning did I get a low pad warning,. 40k miles so Sharp think 1/3 wear is time to replace smh.
Sorry had to vent!!
They stated quite clearly that it required new pads and rotors all around. Having inspected the car myself I ignored this recommendation. The XKR now has 65,000+ miles with the same pads and rotors and only this morning did I get a low pad warning,. 40k miles so Sharp think 1/3 wear is time to replace smh.
Sorry had to vent!!
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Cee Jay (07-18-2018)
#2
07-18-2018, 12:06 PM
Veteran Member
Whatever happened to the days of Brake Pads and Rotors lasting 90k+ miles? I know, not really possible in Performance vehicles. I remember replacing Original from the Factory brakes on my dad's 1970 Chrysler Wagon, at 120,000 miles. The reason there used to be "Lifetime Brake Pads" is because they DID last 'forever'. At least through the first owner.
Andy, your 65,000 is pretty good. People usually replace well before that. MAYBE because "Dealer or Shop Recommendation".... as in 'I recommend you give me money for no reason'.
Ten years ago my wife bought a used 2002 Jeep Grand Cherokee, and I found in the glove box a receipt from a Las Vegas shop with the PO's address of Utah..... and the Total Bill was over $1200, pads, rotors, labor, and whatever else, I cannot remember. That shop raped the PO, big time. Evidently dude was on the road and had a problem. Yep, his problem was he got screwed.
Andy, your 65,000 is pretty good. People usually replace well before that. MAYBE because "Dealer or Shop Recommendation".... as in 'I recommend you give me money for no reason'.
Ten years ago my wife bought a used 2002 Jeep Grand Cherokee, and I found in the glove box a receipt from a Las Vegas shop with the PO's address of Utah..... and the Total Bill was over $1200, pads, rotors, labor, and whatever else, I cannot remember. That shop raped the PO, big time. Evidently dude was on the road and had a problem. Yep, his problem was he got screwed.
#3
07-18-2018, 12:15 PM
Veteran Member
Not surprising in the least. 99% of dealers are completely useless thieves. The last time I went to a dealer in February, they insisted I needed my rear pads and rotors replaced to the tune of $1200 (just for the rears!), even though the sensor hadn't even gone off yet. I laughed in his face. The sensor finally went off a week or so ago (nearly 6 months and 7k miles later) and I'm replacing all four corners myself for under $500.
#4
07-18-2018, 12:26 PM
Veteran Member
Yes, this my experience with most dealers as well. I will say that I don't think this of my local Jag dealer. The few times I have brought in the XK, they did not recommend anything. They do a complimentary check and a free wash (which I always turn down because it's always clean 
and they top off fluids for free. They did notice a slight coolant leak and recommended the water pump change but that was a real problem that I already knew of. Every time the brake check comes out in the green range. 40k miles now. When I do need brakes, I won't be paying dealer prices though.
and they top off fluids for free. They did notice a slight coolant leak and recommended the water pump change but that was a real problem that I already knew of. Every time the brake check comes out in the green range. 40k miles now. When I do need brakes, I won't be paying dealer prices though.
#5
07-18-2018, 06:08 PM
Its frustrating, I have a love of Jag use to work with them etc but I can't recommend them to anybody because the dealer sucks. Our local Porsche dealer, I can't praise enough. Funny the Porsche dealer is competent, fair, honest often didn't charge as they were in there any way on a 16 year old car. There soft side service wasn't as good i.e. loaner car etc The Jag dealer sucks but there soft side is good lol.
I haven't decided if I'm going to do this myself may have a local small shop do it (Michigan summer is short and try to make the most of it).
I am fitting slotted and drilled rotors. I've noticed when wet a small but alarming delay in the breaks biting hoping the slots will help displace water. Any body else noticed this?
I haven't decided if I'm going to do this myself may have a local small shop do it (Michigan summer is short and try to make the most of it).
I am fitting slotted and drilled rotors. I've noticed when wet a small but alarming delay in the breaks biting hoping the slots will help displace water. Any body else noticed this?
#6
07-18-2018, 06:39 PM
You are aware that the purpose of the slots is to cut off the glazed top layer of the brake pads? Slots and holes reduce the disc's swept area so there is less braking. They DO look cool though.
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Queen and Country (07-20-2018)
#7
07-18-2018, 07:31 PM
Veteran Member
It has been my experience that you may be able to find someone "a level up" in the dealer to tell your problem to, and that they will resolve it.
I know a shop that had an employee selling and "doing" work with a machine to do that work was out of order.
CEO came down on that one, took care of everyone that had been in for the "work" that had not actually been done.
Things certainly won't get fixed without communication.
When it comes to brake wear, the wear is from usage. Our EPA MPG estimates have shifted down because average use has increased.
I know a shop that had an employee selling and "doing" work with a machine to do that work was out of order.
CEO came down on that one, took care of everyone that had been in for the "work" that had not actually been done.
Things certainly won't get fixed without communication.
When it comes to brake wear, the wear is from usage. Our EPA MPG estimates have shifted down because average use has increased.
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#8
07-18-2018, 07:56 PM
Veteran Member
I haven't decided if I'm going to do this myself may have a local small shop do it (Michigan summer is short and try to make the most of it).
I am fitting slotted and drilled rotors. I've noticed when wet a small but alarming delay in the breaks biting hoping the slots will help displace water. Any body else noticed this?
I am fitting slotted and drilled rotors. I've noticed when wet a small but alarming delay in the breaks biting hoping the slots will help displace water. Any body else noticed this?
My other still has what may be the original rotors.
The difference in the dry is not noticeable.
The difference in serious rain, puddles, spray, etc it is quite noticeable.
What you're feeling should go away if you make the change.
I was not, and am not, driving my Jaguar in the kind of situations where I feel the need to make the change.
But when the time comes for new rotors(if ever) I will make that change.
The following 2 users liked this post by Tervuren:
andys-GR (07-19-2018),
Queen and Country (07-20-2018)
#9
07-18-2018, 08:37 PM
Veteran Member
Dealers as well as other shops come in many degrees of competence. Some of us have good experiences and some have bad. Out of almost 60 years of owning and servicing my cars this is the only one that I have worked with a dealer. So far so good but I am still in the honeymoon phase with only 22K miles. Any work has been under CPO so no big issues yet. I do a yearly service but have also had wheel alignment and new tires acquired at the dealer. At ever service I get back the Jaguar check list with the pertinent info listed . Things like brake pad wear/thickness , rotor thickness , battery life percentage , fluid level status prior to topping off if necessary and several other stats. I'll see if this changes as time goes on but we'll see . By the way I've personally met all of the people who worked on my car as well as the head of service and the dealership GM.
#10
07-19-2018, 07:44 AM
Veteran Member
My faith in the local Jag dealer is very low if it's out of my pocket. We had a great stand alone Jag dealer that knew what they were doing, but it was shuttered when all the dealerships needed to JLR. The Jag indy shops are busy with older and just coming off warranty cars, but have only gone so deep into just off warranty repairs. I know my indy would not promote new brakes (or any service) unless truly needed.
#11
07-19-2018, 08:28 AM
I've just ordered up a full set of black coated grooved/drilled for my XKR, along with EBC redstuff pads.
Not because I want/need the car to be able to compete on a track or for improvement in braking, they are fine as are... but because the discs on it have a couple of mm lip/rim on the discs outer edges and I much prefer the looks of grooved/drilled discs.
It's just the kid in me
#12
07-19-2018, 11:57 AM
Senior Member
My only experience with my jag dealer, which is literally 2 miles from my house, is when I had to replace the side marker light on my car. Wanting to give local businesses my money when practical, I called and ordered the part. $150. Then I came back here and priced the same part based on recommendations from this site. $69 shipped. Called the dealer back up and cancelled the order. If they are going to charge me double, they will get precious little business from me.
I have owned my BMW for 10 years, and have never taken it to the dealer. I have bought some parts from them when it was cheaper due to shipping cost. The "Luxury" car dealers in this town think that you must be made of money if you own one of their cars. I have found there are much cheaper ways to get the same things done. especially if you are not afraid of getting a little dirty.
I have owned my BMW for 10 years, and have never taken it to the dealer. I have bought some parts from them when it was cheaper due to shipping cost. The "Luxury" car dealers in this town think that you must be made of money if you own one of their cars. I have found there are much cheaper ways to get the same things done. especially if you are not afraid of getting a little dirty.
Last edited by 110reef; 07-19-2018 at 12:09 PM.
#13
07-19-2018, 12:04 PM
Veteran Member
To determine if I need new rotors I check what the max/min thickness specs are for the discs and use a digital caliper to measure them. Usually wear is around 4mm before replacement is required I also decide based on how long the pads lasted. For example I changed all of the pads for less than $20 on my VW last years at 40K miles and the discs were only worn 1.5mm which means I should get another 60k miles or replace them at the next pad change.
#14
07-19-2018, 12:33 PM
To determine if I need new rotors I check what the max/min thickness specs are for the discs and use a digital caliper to measure them. Usually wear is around 4mm before replacement is required I also decide based on how long the pads lasted. For example I changed all of the pads for less than $20 on my VW last years at 40K miles and the discs were only worn 1.5mm which means I should get another 60k miles or replace them at the next pad change.
I'm sure my discs and pads have got thousands of miles in them.
But the little lip is giving me a good excuse to swap out for grooved/drilled
As above, it's the kid in me.
#15
07-19-2018, 03:46 PM
Nothing wrong with that, I put those kool slotted and dimpled rotors on my Honda pickup just for looks. Kinda like **** on a boar hog but they sure looked nice.
#16
07-19-2018, 10:08 PM
Veteran Member
The Jaguar dealer here in Seattle is pathetic. My last experience involved three trips to have my defrost fixed under warranty. After the third visit of them not fixing the car, the service writer calls me and tells me my car is ready to be picked up. I asked how they fixed it and he said they couldn’t find anything wrong! Even though when I brought it in, I showed him how no air was coming out of the defrost vents and he agreed at the time it was not working. If I hadn’t questioned him during the phone call, I would have gone to the dealer to pick up the car and it wouldn’t have been fixed. Again! I told the guy I refused to pick up my car until it was repaired. I then called the service manager and explained my frustration. He was good to deal with and assured me it would be fixed and after about another week, it was. But why did I have to bring it in three times and finally have to get angry and complain to the service manager before they would fix it?!
The Lexus dealer here, on the other hand, is fantastic. Not only do they consistently have outstanding customer service and follow through, they fix the car with one visit. There is never any arguing or having to complain. What a novelty.
If Lexus can do it right, why can’t Jaguar??
The Lexus dealer here, on the other hand, is fantastic. Not only do they consistently have outstanding customer service and follow through, they fix the car with one visit. There is never any arguing or having to complain. What a novelty.
If Lexus can do it right, why can’t Jaguar??
Last edited by XJDanny; 07-20-2018 at 07:46 AM.
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andys-GR (07-20-2018)
#17
07-20-2018, 07:46 AM
Veteran Member
I agree with 60% of this rant but ya gotta cut the dealers a little slack relative to brake work. Brake work pros know that in some unpredictable percentage of cases, anything less than a full overhaul of of the brake system results in a dissatisfied customer. This results in "come back" after "come back" service appointments that eat up any profit you make on the half *** brake job and prevents the tech from moving on profitable work and the customer still hates you.
The solution to the above from the dealers perspective: refuse partial brake service jobs. The customer hates you but at least you are not going broke. And buy the way, in many service operations the tech is the one penalized by "come backs" and supports the policy of no partial brake work. Around here, many independent brake service shops will not do partial brake work either.
The fault is one of customer expectations. Many of us refuse anything less that perfect results from half *** brake work and will just go nuts over the odd squeak and groan from the brakes. Any of you who have ever done your own brake work/service know the truth of my words. So there.
The solution to the above from the dealers perspective: refuse partial brake service jobs. The customer hates you but at least you are not going broke. And buy the way, in many service operations the tech is the one penalized by "come backs" and supports the policy of no partial brake work. Around here, many independent brake service shops will not do partial brake work either.
The fault is one of customer expectations. Many of us refuse anything less that perfect results from half *** brake work and will just go nuts over the odd squeak and groan from the brakes. Any of you who have ever done your own brake work/service know the truth of my words. So there.
#18
07-20-2018, 11:43 AM
Veteran Member
#19
07-20-2018, 12:11 PM
Yeah I understand the purpose of the slots, but they will also help shed water. Its not 'real' problem I doubt I could measure the delay in brake bight. Incidentally I'm impressed with the brake life as I'm not a slow driver
Yes it reduces the contact area so yes there will be a reduction in performance and a increase in pad wear. As expressed by a few above I also think they look better.
My rant against the dealer wasn't for wanting to do a complete job (i understand that) it is stating that the brakes NEED replacement at what was obviously approx 30% wear
Incidentally I wouldn't use them again because of the problems they caused while working on the car under warranty.
Yes it reduces the contact area so yes there will be a reduction in performance and a increase in pad wear. As expressed by a few above I also think they look better.
My rant against the dealer wasn't for wanting to do a complete job (i understand that) it is stating that the brakes NEED replacement at what was obviously approx 30% wear
Incidentally I wouldn't use them again because of the problems they caused while working on the car under warranty.
#20
07-20-2018, 02:26 PM
Veteran Member
Yeah I understand the purpose of the slots, but they will also help shed water. Its not 'real' problem I doubt I could measure the delay in brake bight. Incidentally I'm impressed with the brake life as I'm not a slow driver
Yes it reduces the contact area so yes there will be a reduction in performance and a increase in pad wear. As expressed by a few above I also think they look better.
My rant against the dealer wasn't for wanting to do a complete job (i understand that) it is stating that the brakes NEED replacement at what was obviously approx 30% wear
Incidentally I wouldn't use them again because of the problems they caused while working on the car under warranty.
Yes it reduces the contact area so yes there will be a reduction in performance and a increase in pad wear. As expressed by a few above I also think they look better.
My rant against the dealer wasn't for wanting to do a complete job (i understand that) it is stating that the brakes NEED replacement at what was obviously approx 30% wear
Incidentally I wouldn't use them again because of the problems they caused while working on the car under warranty.
Friction is pressure x surface.
You won't get a reduction in braking performance because the brake piston's are able to push harder than maximum braking.
Reducing surface area for the same force from the piston increase the pressure over that reduced surface.
Your limit in the dry will still be the tires and not the brakes.
If you really want to experience the difference that is possible, have someone spray all four brakes with a hose, then drive off and try to slow down again.
With cold brakes it will be quite noticeable.
For light rain where you don't have spray onto your brakes it won't make a lot of difference.
For some of the huge thunder boomers here in the south-east it can be noticeable, especially if cars on either side are spraying the surface water sideways onto your car.
The bottom line is there are some situations you will be a bit safer, you will spend a little more dollars. I think relative to the value of the car it is worth it if you are changing it anyway.