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The range rovers do have some slight differences, iirc the intake (maf part section) was already 90mm, and the aluminium middle pipe is much better for flow then the XJR/STR ones, TB was the same, and then again the exhaust manifold was a branched version (not the simple versions form the Jaguar NA engines). It would have been hard not to have higher hp/torque values for these cars...
Measure your intake vacuum, then look at the link I posted in #24, then you can get some idea of what hp you can gain by reducing the vacuum.
So I believe the intake has played a large role towards the 20 hp extra, but I have not worked on the dual intake cars (XF/ x150), so have no data.
I have a question to the Count. Deuce has modified his generation intake manifold to accommodate a 82/83mm throttle body. In next generation Jaguar 4.2 SC engines Jaguar and Rovers went with the design where the intake air runs down the center top of the engine. Do you know which design has better inlet air flow? Perhaps the X100 hood is too low to convert to the later SC intake. Just thinking....
The older style 'rear fed' intercooler design has lower restriction (and I include the X100 AJ34 4.2 in this) but the later centre fed design distributes the charger better cylinder to cylinder. The differences are still minimal however- or else the AJ34 XKR would have homologated to different numbers to the AJ33/AJ36 XJR and S types-which they didn't. Cyl to cyl distribution is an issue on the supercharged engines but the new intercooler design wasn't enough to solve it. To address it- you really need either a single intercooler/plenum design but coupled with headers etc
The X100 and earlier STRs had 390HP ratings, and they had different intake set ups. When VVT was added, to the supercharged versions the ratings went up to 400HP. The X150 supercharged 4.2 was rated at 420HP. Where did this additional 20HP come from? The split rear intakes? The same year XJRs were rated at 420 HP and they have the inlet over the top of the engine then split dual inlets in front of the inlet duct. I believe that the Range Rovers stayed at 400HP until the put in the 5.0L engines.
On the AJ40 4.2 in the X150- the biggest reason for the power boost is the twin airbox resulting in much lower intake restriction. I outlined some of this work on my XJR-500 thread near the end. The VVT helps power and torque a little. Again, I give round about numbers on the last post on my XJR-550 thread.
I'm using a Ford Mustang GT350 throttle body at 87mm. They are readily available and depending on what engine management system you are using, you should be able to control it no problem.
I am willing to wager that all of the modern ETCs use 12V PWM to control the motor. The differences are in the throttle position sensor. Most are "Hall effect" sensors, but in the X100s they use the older contact style Denso units. As Avos has stated, any TPS can work if you adjust the offset of the voltage outputs to match your ECM.
I am researching this way too much. I am playing around with the spare Jaguar 5.0L TB I have, and started to machine an adapter plate to mount the Denso TPS along with an adapter plate to mount this 82mm Jag. TB to my Inlet to the Supercharger.
Last edited by Tijoe; 11-02-2018 at 11:51 AM.
Reason: spelling
Most TPS sensors I have seen so far from other cars use an opposite approach for the 2 tracks. So one goes from 0.5v to 4.5, whilst the other from 4.5v to 0.5v.
Jaguar does it in a different way with the 4.0 and 4.2 engines, here the 2 tracks are almost in parallel from low to high voltage (ie 0.6v and 1.5 volt to 3.80 and 4.00). The 5.0 ones work different again, but have never measured these.
I have no idea about the newer ford one you show above, but iirc the old ones have opposite tracks, just like the Bosch one shown earlier and the Hemi ones I have used.
Therefore the comment from Tom Lenthal is right, almost all aftermarket ECUs will be able to work with the Ford ones.
I don't know of any brand that uses bigger TBs where the TPS sensors work similar to the Jaguar one.
Ho una domanda. Quando hai aggiunto la porta del refrigerante dell'uscita posteriore, esegui entrambi i raccordi sulla parte anteriore come linee di ingresso?
Jaguar 5.0 TB modified to fit the Denso TPS sensor
I had some free time and decided to machine a quick adapter to let me mount the Denso separate TPS used on our generation throttle body. Took me a couple of hours to mill/grind and shape the part.
I still have to drill and tap the TPS mounting holes and bend up a small bracket to be attached to the valve shaft. Then weld the part to the Throttle body.
Hi to all,
I've found this topic and forum with help of an very active user here, Deuce2000, who is a very passionate and hard working guy on his Jag. It has been told the 83mm TB is a very wished part, so I offered my help to him, but only if this "most wanted" trend is true.
So I'm offering my service to you all guys, to build this part by metal casting directly at 83mm - but keep all the original mechanism and air flow sensor original .
The process is as you know it from reverse engineering and rapid prototyping
- 3D Scanning _ >CAD design > Printing in FDM for testing the fitment and overall sizes. - > Printing in finall version and casting in alu resin > Mould creation for Casting -> Aluminium Casting
The big help will come by the coach build partner platform sechtor.com where I 'm working for exact these kind of parts besides few engineers in CAD electronics and automotive designers
Please let me know if if makes sense to build such part for you, and how many want it .
For up to 5 pieces price will be around 300 usd/piece, for 10 pieces will dramatically lower to 200usd/part.
Here I attach a metal part made with process mentioned above, just for your reference
Hi to all,
So I'm offering my service to you all guys, to build this part by metal casting directly at 83mm - but keep all the original mechanism and air flow sensor original .
The process is as you know it from reverse engineering and rapid prototyping
Your heart appears to be in the right place, but I do not believe that trying to offer a special throttle body "housing" can be sold to perhaps 1 or 2 forum members. What would we use for the rest of the TB parts? 83mm butterfly valve and shaft, bearing/s to hold the shaft and electronics. The throttle body housing you have offered would only be applicable to X100s. The buyer would have to spend a lot more money on a butterfly valve and custom actuator shaft that would adapt to the electronics and TPS.
(Your Design would end up taking a lot of time making a hybrid of the scan of the original TB body, then enlarging it to 83mm. Scaling it up in the inlet area probably wont work. You will have to be sure that the enlarged inlet diameter doesn't cut into where the actuator motor is placed in the existing housing. I wouldn't use my time and energy to try to sell perhaps 5 of these.)
Duece2000 is using a stand alone ECM so he can adapt almost any throttle body to his needs. He can purchase from several different 83mm TB assemblies that cost less than $300 total.
I believe that there is more of an opportunity to design and fabricate higher flow inlet manifold housing/s that mate to a compatible OEM or aftermarket 83mm TBs and these inlets designs could fit the M112 SC or the KB Twin screw SC. Avos did this for his Twin screw kit and could chime in on how much these parts should cost.
Last edited by Tijoe; 01-29-2019 at 09:29 PM.
Reason: spelling
@Tijoe Thank you for your input, I want to let you know that before posting my first message here, I've noticed your personal implication and significant contribution of you in this topic, and I noticed you are an important person for this forum and probably to Jaguar owners comunity
From your reply, I understand you are very willing to help with this project , and you already raised some possible problems to overcome. I really appreciate that.
In addition I'm all open to know you guys and genuinely help you Only and Only if you feel the need of any help, otherwise, I promise I will not reply to this topic further.
So for now to me and probably to us,the question is about "do we need this part?" not yet "how we get that?"
For this reason please bare and stay with me a bit more and let me confirm the following basic statements below, and correct my concluded answers me where of if I'm wrong
1. Is this part exists as carryover from another manufacturer or car/model that can be used , tested and works already, or any know production for it which will end soon with revealing it to the market ?
A. NO
2. Is this 83 TB specially designed for Jaguar XKs WANTED or NOT :
A: YES
3. How many people are known they want this part just to install and run (no other moods)
A. 1-3 people - 3 , but 5 could be a realistic number to aim
4. Will details below about new item influence answer to number 2 with bigger numbers?
A: Yes
Please also help to understand more about how much (Eg: 3 more people, 10 more people etc)
Sorry for skipping previously some other 3 important details about the build:
A. sechtor.com provides only fully functional tested items, is just that you are also assisting on the development
So yes it will be full TB -with new Aluminium body, + New butterfly valve - Price above using your Original Sensors and valve actuator from your old TB.They can quote with new IAT sensor also B. items are only sold with buyer warranty, you do not pay for items which are not working. All money back if functional requirements as specified from order are not met. C. Delivery time is listed as max 3 months for spare parts for full process, and 6 months for engine blocks or structural modifications(body chassis,unibody panels etc)
It is worth a look at. You will have to see what other forum members think.
Keep in mind that the X100 and S-type potential market is a lot smaller than the X150 and Later MY S-type Rs.*
There was an ECM change and different TBs are used. (X150 probably has the larger market potential.)
You might consider starting a new thread in the engine technical section that will get viewed by all 4.2L AJ-V8 jaguar owners.
*Note: This version TB may be used in XJRs, I haven't researched this because I haven't needed to.
Last edited by Tijoe; 01-30-2019 at 12:13 PM.
Reason: spelling
Hi , Id be interested in this, if it mounted seamlessly to the duct going into the Supercharger etc. into my X308 XJR
Esepecially at the price you quote
I'm NOT interested in any duct work for a KenneBell type blower etc BTW or a new intake manifold design.
Having been involved in the Jaguar original OEM design and knowing what's exactly involved in its development- it's very unlikely it can be improved upon by someone who doesn't have many years of engine development/design and analysis experience.
It's an interesting project for sure, but I think everyone involved needs to understand the complexity of the different variants over the years, there is not going to be a one-size-fits-all solution for every 4.0 and 4.2 over the years.
The only way I see this working is if you produce a new throttle body assembly, that will 1:1 accept the electronics from a factory throttle body.
So pull the electronics off your existing throttle body, transfer them to the new bigger one.
And this will mean at least four different versions depending on the models you want to cover.
The 5.0L electronics is totally different to the earlier models...
2006MY-onward Jaguars; X150 XK & XKR, the last of the STRs, the X356/X358 XJR, and the XF SV8, these are all "the same" electronically.
The only difference being that the supercharged ones have the coolant channels and connections to keep the throttle body warm and prevent icing.
Note that the Range Rover 4.2L S/C from that era is a different unit, not electronically compatible with the Jags, so you would have to keep that in mind as well.
The "2003-2005" cars; S-Type R, XJR and X103 XKR
The "2000-2002" cars; XJR and XKR
The "1998-2000" cars, XJR and XKR
These years are not definitive, but a rough guide for the different versions. So you need to produce a replacement TB to match the version in the car (accept the original electronics).
I can also tell you that when we put the Maxbore throttle body on the 2007 XK (80mm vs. stock 76mm), the mouth of the mounting flange on the intake manifold had to be ground down in a few spots, as the throttle was bigger than the opening on the manifold.
So an even bigger TB will need additional modification to the intake elbow... it won't be a bolt-on...
Also, if you put a bigger throttle body on a 2006MY-onward 4.2L (with the Denso PanPag PCM) then the tune absolutely must be modified in order for the engine to even idle properly. This was quite a headache on the XK...
The pre-2006 cars won't need any modification to the tune to handle a bigger throttle body, so long as the TPS and stepper motor are "same as stock".
I know probably one other person that might be interested in the series ""2003-2005" cars; S-Type R, XJR and X103 XKR", which could actually be the biggest market.
Would 85mm be possible, or what is the maximum size?
The price is really fair for what you deliver, and possibly lots of STR/XJR owners would be interested in a TB like this, but that has to be checked.
Due to limited space on the STR/XJR, not much can be done on the intake elbow unfortunately as the setup is restrictive, especially once you start increasing the airflow with pulley changes for instance.
The x103 does have another option due to extra room, but staying with the Eaton setup, the effort for a new intake design like the KB setups (however there we talk about much higher demands in airflow) is probably not worth it.
For most a bigger TB and matching work (Like Cambo mentioned) on the elbow is a good option but also in combination with a better intake pipe/maf/filterbox as the system on all these series is restrictive when it comes to airflow even in stock setup.
So breaking down all above: X150 XK & XKR103 (thanks @Tijoe ) - version has the biggest market, also they come with 75mm stock which is kind of small for the potential of their engines.
Intake ducts ahead and behind the TB needs to accept the 83mm movement as @avos said, this is a prerequisite that we assume from the start, owners are making in their builds, before demanding an 83mm throttle .
Is it known if the X150 XK & XKR103 accept this mood and if is enough place for it?
OEM code : 6R83-9F991-BA , 6R83-9F991- BB (different ECU codding for pwm but same Aluminium housing)20062006JAGUARS-TypeThrottle Valve Assembly, 8 cylinder (4.2L) R model20072007JAGUARS-TypeThrottle Valve Assembly, 8 cylinder (4.2L) R model, thru VIN N76798Throttle Valve Assembly, 8 cylinder (4.2L) R model, from VIN N7679920082008JAGUARS-TypeThrottle Valve Assembly, 8 cylinder (4.2L) R model20092009JAGUARXFThrottle Valve Assembly, (4.2L), supercharged option20082009JAGUARXJThrottle Valve Assembly, supercharged option20062007JAGUARXJ8Throttle Valve Assembly, supercharged option20072009JAGUARXKRThrottle Valve Assembly, XKR (supercharged option)
@Count Iblis - It seems like X308 is different - is this how yours looks like ??
10-30-2018, 12:58 AM
TB for XKs
