S-type 3.0L and Lincoln LS Cat. Converter the same?
 

It seems I have problems with the catalytic converter(s) on my 2002 3.0L S-type. I keep getting the P0420 code, low power, low MPG and a 'stutter' in the engine when it gets hot (whether at idle or 60mph) where it just bogs down, sometimes once and sometimes repeatedly 5-10 times in the same number of seconds.

I am having trouble finding an S-type catalytic converter here in my little town (or online). I can find them for the Lincoln LS 3.0L engine. I have read that they are the same engine and drivetrain. Is the exhaust system also the same? Will direct fit LS catalytic converters bolt on the 2002 3.0L S-type?

If not, do you know where to get them, besides mail-order through Jaguar at $1000 a pop?

Thanks in advance.

Sorry I don't know, but more seems to be said about the commonality of S & LS than is actually true - beware!

JagV8,

What have you found about the '02 Jag S-type 3.0L engine and drivetrain that is different from the '02 Lincoln LS?

I would like to know specifics! Thanks.

I've seen a rather vague statement that the S-Type & LS were derived from a common platform. I'm very aware that Jaguar is based in England and designs and builds the cars there. There was a major revision in about 2002. Out went the Ford autobox, in came the ZF one. Etc.

I've seen statements that the window regulator on the early (1999) cars is the same as the LS.

I've not seen even an electrical diagram of the LS PCM etc.

I've no access to either car's parts lists etc.

But I really can't imagine that such dramatically different cars designed by different teams and built in different countries are as similar as some seem to think.

I've no interest in the LS so really I don't care except I think it probably misleads people when the mention of this alleged similarity is made.

If it DOES exist, I'd also like to know to what extent although it's not likely to help me - there's no LS equivalent of the STR is there?

The LS and S-Type share the same platform. For all intensive purposes I would have to say that the similarities end there.

There is no LS equivalent to the STR; the 2002 lincoln v8 was a 3.9L ford engine while the 2002 jag v8 was a similar engine bored out to 4.0L, and subsequent years had the British 4.2L. While the LS never came with a supercharger, LS owners still blog about stuffing Eaton M12s into the cramped engine bays with results not comparable to STRs.

The 3.0L V6is a different story. Although the names differ (Duratec 30 in the LS vs AJ30 in the S-Type), the engines are essentially the same. I do not claim to know any more than this, as I really don't care about anything less that 8 cylinders. However, there is a discrepancy in horsepower between the two, and since it does not stem from mechanical differences in the engine, there are two areas that may make the difference:
1) the haphazard usage of BHP vs RHP, which we have seen bump the STR from 390RHP to 400BHP (although being a STR owner I just say 400).
2) Actual intake/exhaust differences

However, if the diameters of both cats match they should be interchangeable. A cat is a cat, and these being from similar engines will have similar builds.

Marty - thanks. Any idea whether (any of) the cars use the same engine management device (ECU)? And whether they likely share any of the programming? (Ford info can be easier to get than Jag info lol)

BTW, I'm guessing you're aware of the vaguely informative http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_AJ-V8_engine and of course the article confirming what you say about the V6: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_AJ-V6_engine

The trouble with the term "platform" is that it appears to include suspension but is anyone really going to say the S-Type & LS have the same suspension....

The more I look for similarities between our 2005 S-Type 3.0 and a 2005 Lincoln LS, the fewer similarities I come up with. Same engine, yes, but Jaguar made some modifications that Lincoln did not. Very different suspensions. Very different electronics. I've talked to a couple of different service managers at local Lincoln/Mercury dealerships and none of them are willing to attempt anything more difficult than an oil change or a brake job on the S-Type. Their parts departments have no way of cross-referencing part numbers from Ford to Jaguar. So it's a gamble that you must be willing to undertake if you decide to source parts from Ford.

I wish there were more documented similarities (and some trustworthy means to cross-reference them) because I always like to have multiple sources for parts and service. But other than sharing the same chassis and probably an array of minor parts such as window regulators and the like, the S-Type and the LS seem to be very different animals....

I found two Cat sellers that say they are the same. I have not decided to order them yet, but since Jag wants $1000 each and "both should be replaced at the same time" $600 for TWO direct bolt on Cats is sounding a lot better than one for $1000 and two for $2000 plus Jag labor. They attach with three bolts (two on front and one clamp on back).

The JTIS does give some good trouble-shooting on the sensors that I will go through before replacing.

If anyone needs the Cat company info let me know. One actually said "If they do not work just send them back and we will pay postage for the return shipment and refund all your money." They have a 5 yr unlimited mile warranty.

I am certain that the ECUs are different in 2003+, but I do not know about beforehand... I would think they are different, or at least tuned differently.

I have glanced at those articles, but by nature have to greet wikipedia articles with a certain degree of scepticism. While I did not see anything incorrect in the articles, I am not a Jag tech, or Ford tech for that matter.

The suspensions share only certain parts, but I cannot remember which. None of the electronics, though.

If you know anything about the ECUs or indeed similar things, please fess up!

I'm still wondering if the Network Configuration (i.e. which module is on which bus) in the electrical diagrams is actually correct for the 03+ cars.

Please send me the Cat company info. I need to order.
Thx!

I'm sorry. My wife threw it away in a "cleaning spree". (I thought it was surely safe out in the pickup. She never drives it!) I haven't found the company info again online yet. I'll keep trying and post here when/if I can find them again.

Sorry. Greg

Well, I was down under again on Monday. (Not in Austrialia... under the Jag!)

I took another look at the Cat converters on the 3.0L '02 Jag S-type and the ones on my vehicle are both stamped with the FORD emblem and a bunch of numbers. That makes me pretty confident that the Cat for the Lincoln LS will work.

I am will be calling around to see of any of the Ford Parts houses in the area know anything about this. I'll let you know what I find out.

If you have found an good quality Cat that fits the 2002ish S-Type let me know. I cannot afford too high a pricetag this time of year (or any for that matter)!

Thanks. Bug Doc

Ecu's are not the same, hell an ls uses a engine driven fan, jag elect, and ls doesnt have vvts. If ya;ll are so worried about cheaper cats, buy a set of universal magnaflos of the correct pipe diameter and have a muffler shop cut out the old and weld in the new. I just finished a custom stainless exhuast from headers to tail pipe, 2 metal matrix cats and spin tech muffler on my supercharged frontier and the whole thing didnt cost me but a grand and stainless everything is expensive

Anybody tried Catalytic Converters from these guys?

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/5...dcccompare.jpg

Discount Catalytic Converters $295 each, direct replacement. 5yr/50k miles.

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/2...dccshipped.jpg

That shipping cost is amazingly low. (I hope they do not see this!)

If you want to see the actual page, it is here:

http://www.discountcatalyticconverters.com/shop/detail.php?R=Endeca.493079+Endeca.285700+&B=Tj0wJl ZOPTQyOTQ5NjcxODErNDI5NDk2NzI2MCs0Mjk0OTY2Nzk0KzQy OTQ5NjcyNDcrNDI5NDk2NzEyNCZOcj1BTkQocGFydDpDYXRhbH l0aWMrQ29udmVydGVyKSZldmVudHM9cGFydGZpbmRlcg%3D%3D &T=Q2F0YWx5dGljIENvbnZlcnRlciAyMDAyIEphZ3VhciBTLVR 5cGUg&Y=2002

Sorry for that ugly URL. I cannot see any way to insert hyperlinked txt.

I am certain the ECUs on the two cars are not the same. All I know is that my '02 S-type with 75K when I bought it, had (and still has at ~102K miles) catalytic converters with the FORD logo stamped on them.

Brutal, I don't really want to have someone cutting on the pipes. They look pretty rust free right now. What do you think of the company below? These are a driect fit.

Here's a go at the URL:
http://www.discountcatalyticconverte...205cGUg&Y=2002

I copied the URL from the browser to the clipboard, then hit Shift+Ins key to insert it here.

The only thing you cut out is the cat and weld a new 1 in a new one. You can get those from cat direct, they look like the correct part. Its just gonna cost you more than welding in universals

Not correct the Lincoln LS does have VVT from 2003 to 2006. The early LS 2000-2002 uses the hydraulic driven fan exactly the same as the Jag. The Gen II LS 2003-2006 went to an electric fan again identical to the Jag. The Lincoln LS NEVER had an engine driven fan.

Yes the ECU is completely different between the two cars.
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Do the later LS models also have the Intake Manifold Tuner valves?

I have the V-8 version of the Lincoln LS so am not sure? I don't think so because those pesky IMT O-rings are never mentioned on the LS forums. They do share the same failure prone PCV elbows and those cause many problems for the V-6 LS guys too!!
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I was really hoping someone else would have tried those CATs by now. Looks like I might have to be the guinee pig... anyone?!?!?

I'm not certain about the newer LS models on the "IMTuner valves". But the '02 LS V6 does. Except Ford does not call them "IMTuner valves". I have forgotten what they call them.

But since I do not have a Jaguar dealer within 70 miles, I called the Ford/Lincoln dealer in town and asked him to look at the LS schematic. He was sceptical, but finally checked. The '02 V6 IMTuner also has the two "tuner valves". But don't ask for them by name or they will not find them. Tell them where they are and what they do...

When I changed our IMT O-rings last Monday, I noticed that the plastic valve casings are clearly embossed with the Ford script logo....

Is this to good to be true?
http://www.car-stuff.com/carparts/ja...ast831651.html

I realize the original post is over 6 months old, but keep in mind that a failing cat on the 3.0L S-Type is often caused by a cylinder misfire. You have the injector still shooting fuel into the chamber, but a faulty coil may not be firing and igniting the fuel. Then the unburnt fuel gets sent out into the exhaust manifold and into the cat, causing failure of the element within the cat. It's fairly common when you see that P0420 code. Replacing a cat without checking the coil operation first is a surefire way to be purchasing a second replacement cat down the road.

As far as the LS replacement being worthwhile, I might unofficially suggest checking a junkyard cat before perusing your local Ford/Lincoln dealer. Remember that a lot of these items are VIN-specific, and officially, tampering with emissions-related equipment is a violation of federal law. ;)

Hey NalleyJagParts.

Thanks for your suggestions. I already replaced all the coil packs and plugs in another thread that has drifted down the listing a ways. I took some photos and such so others could do that.

That work did make the engine run smoother. But unfortunately it did not get rid of the P0420 error code. After I was finished and the cleared the code, it came back on again in about 25-50 miles.

The CATs, I am certain are VIN-specific. But the originals are also clearly stamped with the Ford emblem. Are those you sell also? If not, are do they really bare the Jag logo?

I still have not replaced the CATs yet. The CEL and P0420 code had been on for over 20K miles. I tried a lot of fuel additives that are supposed to make for cleaner combustion. Only one would turn off the CEL and clear the P0420 code and that was RXP. But it is $7-8 for a one tank bottle. When I stopped using it, the CEL and code quickly came back.

I just tried something that the Autozone guys had been telling me to try for a lot of months. I got a quart bottle of the Lucus Fuel Treatment, enough to treat 300 gallons. After ½ a tank, the CEL light went off and the code cleared. I have been using it for 4-5 tanks now. I still have not used one $9 bottle gone. On the second tank, I forgot to add it. The CEL light and P0420 code have stayed off the whole time (5-6 tanks total).

One added benefit is that the gas mileage on the car has jumped up from 19.5-20.5 mpg to 24-26mpg running the same in town route, on multiple tanks. That is a >20% increase in mpg. I am also now running regular 89 octane gas as the Lucas "increases the fuel quality”. So it is saving a lot of $$$ in fuel.

I am hearing no knocking and the engine seems to have more power. I know… I do not believe it either, but the CATs and the computer believe it.

Once I finish this bottle, I will run without it for a few tanks and see if the CEL and P0420 codes come back or not. That is 2-3 tanks away.

For the mpg to increase, especially so much, seems to me that the PCM was adding extra fuel but no longer is. An OBD tool would have let you see the fuel trims. And still would - just get one :)

Adding fuel, if the coils & plugs are good - that's IF - has to be an air leak. Or, not running closed loop when it should be. Again, OBD will let you find out which of those.

If you're happy not to find out and just want to keep adding that treatment, or if you believe it's cleaned/unstuck something, fair enough.

Often times there will be something like one of the above issues which you could've fixed but left unfixed will require a more expensive fix.

A cheap elm327 will do but to graph the O2s you need some non-free software. It's cheap, though. Even without it you can check whether the central sensors are plausible, that the monitors are OK, and the fuel trims. With better software you should be able to look at misfire counts in case you have a problem not judged by the PCM as serious enough for a MIL.

Is 89 within the jag spec? How far out is it if not? Can a small amount of an additive get it from 89 to (say) 91? (I'm just curious here.)

There are other things that could be wrong but enough for now and besides - you need data.

The OBD is your #1 route now I reckon.