STYPE doesn't start / No power to fuel pump
 

Hello ! :)

I found a 2002 STYPE, 4.2L V8 petrol engine with 300 000 miles, the car stopped at a traffic light and the engine doesn't start anymore...

I'm trying to rescue it...

So, I've changed the fuel pump, checked most of relays and fuses (they are good), checked the inertia switch (it works).

Before and after having changed the fuel pump, the fuel pump isn't spinning when i'm turning the key to position II before ignition.

The engine cranks well, but no fuel is sent to the engine, nothing happens...

We tried to power up the fuel pump with an external power to send fuel to the ramp and the engine, then trying to start the engine (It still persist, the engine doesn't start...)

Any idea ???

I'm 21 years old, and I'm from France, i do apologize if there are grammar mistakes...

Regards,

Welcome to the forum. Don't worry about your English, it is perfectly fine.

Do I understand correctly this is a project car? Sounds like a previous owner gave up on it after it stalled at a traffic light. Was any other work done in addition to the new pump you installed?

What happened when you tried to power the fuel pump from an external source? Did the pump make any noise? Did the pump run? You didn't specify what it did.

Thanks !!! :)

Well I've been advised of this car by a friend !!

If I can't start it before the end of the week (On Friday) the car will be blasted :(

I connected the pump to an external source of power yes and the pump is working ! (it spins)

I haven't tried anything else than what I wrote in my first message :)

I believe to hear the V8 run again, even if the car as got 300 000 miles, needs a good clean up, it looks so great..

I forgot !!

When I tried the fuel pump from an external power, the fuel might went to the engine, right ?

After it spins about 20 seconds, I tried to start the car, but nothing, the engine cranks but it doesn't start...

Then I disconnected the fuel pump of the external power and connected it back as it was, hoping to make it work, turned the key to position II before ignition and the fuel pump still not working...

On the engine, connect a mechanical pressure gauge to the fuel injector rail. This is the common pipe that feeds all of the fuel injectors. There should be a test port that looks like a tire stem.

With the fuel pump hot-wired as mentioned above, see what the test gauge reads at the injector rail. I want to rule out a clogged fuel filter, loose line in the tank, etc.

I also wonder if the original fault was simply a failed fuel pump, which you've replaced. However, somewhere in the process, the security system was accidentally triggered. Under some circumstances, the security system inhibits the fuel pump and injector commands. So even with the pump jury-rigged to run, the injectors may not be active.

More details here, post #60, including how to test if the security system has been triggered, thinking a theft has been attempted:

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/s...3/#post1876674

You can determine the security system status by watching the small red light at the base of the windshield.

When I'll be back from work, I'll take a look about the security system PATS (with the red light flashing or not)

I do not have a a mechanical pressure gauge, however I I push the "valve" with somethinh I'll might be able to hear a "Pssssht" if there is pression... :)

Well I think it sounds like a security feature or something close to... (The fact of having the fuel pump not working and bypassing it by pushing fuel to the injectors with an external power isn't make the engine start ..)

I agree, this scenario would make the most sense. Here's a quick description of how the light should behave when all is good:

First, lock the car with the key fob. Press the lock button a second time to set the alarm system. The horn should chirp once. Watch the little red light. It should flash once every 3 seconds or so to show the security system is armed. Now press the key fob unlock button twice to unlock all the doors. The red light should go out. Sit in the driver's seat and turn the key to RUN (Not start yet). The red light should come on solid ONCE for about 3 seconds and then go out. If it flashes anything after that, you've got a stored code, which usually prevents the engine from starting.

Re: Testing the fuel pressure. Don't read too much into the presence of pressure if you don't have a mechanical gauge. You can determine a total lack of pressure, but that's about it. If you have some pressure, there's no way to know how much without a gauge. 5 psi, which is way too low, will probably seem about the same as the correct pressure, somewhere around 45 psi ( don't quote me on that number). I don't want you to be misled if you find some pressure, but have no way of really knowing if it is within specifications.

I haven't mentioned it yet, but make sure the battery is fully charged. These cars are very sensitive to low prestart voltage. I don't think a low battery is the root cause here, but you don't want to introduce any new problems while troubleshooting.

Thanks for you reply ! :)

I'll be careful about the flashing light of the TAPS system ! :)

For the pressure, I do not have a gauge pressure, I'll take care while trying ;)

I'll keep you updated !

Thanks guys ! :)

Well, it's not the Supercharged model...

It's the classic 4,2L V8.

I'm quite familiar with Jaguar, I'm the proud owner of a 1991 Daimler and a 1988 Sovereign both XJ40 !

So about this S-TYPE I've spent 2h30 on it today !

The PATS anti theft is working fine, the red light works as it should.

There's no spark while ignition, the fuel pump stays quiet, and there's no pressure into the fuel injectors...

Can it be the ECU ??

Well, to tell the truth, I must fix it before Friday, it's impossible, I leave my workplace at 06:00pm, starting at 09:00am...

The engine cranks good, battery is good ! (I charged it at home)

My bad !!! By "blasted" i wanted to say that the car will be compacted (destruction) and will go to car's graveyard

I think it was my last try today, i will call back the actual owner tomorrow to try to save few parts (such as owner book, leather Jaguar case and the wood gear knobe)

Now that's enough to make a grown man cry. Tell the owner if he doesn't let you investigate further, I will fly to France and slap him around. I'm an airline employee so can do this for free. Do you think you could convince him to pick me up at the airport? It would make the logistics so much easier...

I highly doubt the ECU is at fault. It's easy to fear this expensive part, but it usually is not the problem. We have a hard fault, so troubleshooting is fairly easy. It's not like chasing an intermittent fault that comes and goes. The limited timeframe is very frustrating, because we could walk you through the wiring diagrams and have you check for power at various points, testing relays to see if they click when actuated, etc. Nothing too outrageous, and we'd be almost guaranteed to find the root cause without much expense. But unfortunately, it won't happen instantly due to the long distance nature of troubleshooting online.

We don't know for sure that the injectors are not operating, but are working on that assumption. This seems likely, and could be confirmed using a noid light at an injector connector.

For now, if you have access to the car again, please check fuse #4 in the primary junction box. This is a small, hidden fuse panel, just outboard of the US passenger's feet. It's forward of the hinge area for the right front door. If this fuse were to blow, you would lose power to many circuits, including the fuel pump and all of the injectors. It's a very important fuse.

If you were to replace it and it blows again, that's still not a huge deal. This fuse powers several relays, so one of them is probably drawing too much current. Again, this is a fairly simple fix, just a matter of figuring out which relay it was.

Wiring diagrams are here, with the V8 fuel pump and injectors on figure 03.2:

http://www.jagrepair.com/images/Auto...x2032002en.pdf

If you're not familiar with how to follow a circuit between pages, we can walk you through that.

Ahahahaha !! :)

Oh really ? I'm a private pilot !! ;) (I'm flying on Cessna 172 et Piper-Arrow 28)

I go back to the car at the end of the day !

Yeah I understand, you guys are very very nice to help me a lot and so quickly ! A big thanks !!!

About the ECU it's the last component we would suspect, so.

I've checked fuses in my engine compartment and into the luggage, I know that there is a fuse box, just at our feet, driver side, I checked some of them into that box but not all of them !
I'll take a look at fuse #4

I'm wondering, as I'm having no power coil, can the crankshaft sensor can also cut the power of the fuel pump ???

I found an OBD Code Reader !!

I'll keep you update tonight !! :)

Have you checked the inertia switch? Down in the left hand side a-pillar?

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.jag...fda7aa26b0.jpg

I wrote it in my first message ! :)

I tested the inertia switch and it works well ! ;)

How Can I diconnect the ECU ?

I found it but If I pull, it doesn't disconnect

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.jag...68d083a803.jpg

I'm Back !!!

Tonight it was quick, I bought an ODB Reader (ANCEL AD310) and there's no faulty code after the check... https://www.jaguarforum.com/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif

I took a look to the Crankshaft sensors, they look good, if I've got time tomorrow i'll take a look to them with my ohm / volt meter...

I'm also wondering bout the ignition lock, the steering column is well unlocked when the key is inserted, but can it cut off the ignition and the fuel pump if it is faulty ?

I do not have any key symbol on the dashboard, I think it's good...

The crankshaft sensors are here, right ?

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.jag...e2ee2ab6d9.jpg

No, those are the valve timing solenoids...go to jagrepair.com and there is a ton of info and you can download the shop manual

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.jag...355e92a5fa.jpg


Bad news !!!

It seems that the sensor is at the rear of the engine (Figure N°3), quite impossible to reach for me :(

What is your situation as far as access to the car? Are you still under a severe time shortage and the car is about to go to the wrecker at any moment? Or has the owner finally relented and agreed to let you spend a bit more time?

The reason I ask is the sense of urgency is not helping you at all. If anything, it's encouraging you to divert your energy to try anything and everything in hopes of a fix. Such a Hail Mary approach can be a VERY expensive proposition, with little hope of success. At this point, we still don't know if you even have spark or the injectors operating. All we can be sure of is that there was no fuel pressure. For all we know, the original pump may have been just fine but didn't receive the command to run, for reasons still unknown. This same fault may have also stopped the ignition and injector operation, but we are strictly guessing.

If you have a little more time now, I'd really like to encourage you to troubleshoot systematically, versus lobbing parts in hope of a fix. We can walk you through that, with simple steps such as checking for voltage at certain points, feeling if a relay clicks, etc.

That main computer? I highly doubt it is at fault. I guess you could clean and reseat the connector if desired, but I wouldn't go any deeper there for now.

The crankshaft position sensor? Possibly, but I'm not sure exactly what happens when one fails. On other cars of this vintage, I've seen one cause a no-start with no fault codes, but who knows with this car?

Please let us know the present situation for being able to work on the car. I highly, highly doubt the root cause is anything major, but the trick is figuring out without wasting a lot of time or money.

Forget about sensors on the engine.

As soon as you turn the ignition on, the fuel pump is supposed to prime the fuel lines, as in the pump will run momentarily every time you turn the key on/off.

As the fuel pump is controlled via the Rear Electronic Module, this is where you should start looking.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.jag...6bade4c5e5.jpg

Exactly....those modules either work or they don't.... hopefully your time constraints will allow for some pinpoint troubleshooting.....

Thanks for your help ! :)

Ok, let me answer your questions !

What is your situation as far as access to the car ? ---> I live about 15 minutes of the place where the car is parked, I can't put the car in the air to look at it from below.

Are you still under a severe time shortage and the car is about to go to the wrecker at any moment? Or has the owner finally relented and agreed to let you spend a bit more time? ----> It needs to be fixed before the end of the week (Bonus time), then it might go to a wrecker... I can try again to get more time but I think it's going to be hard.

At the moment there's no spark and no fuel pressure in the injectors rail... This fault seems have also stopped the ignition and injector operation, but we are strictly guessing. Yes you are right !! It seems that everything is linked !!

Right, At the moment I forget the crankshaft position sensor and the ECU, I found this on internet to know where is the Rear Electronic Module :

It is on the right side of the trunk behind the emergency gas door release. You'll need to remove the cover over the spare tire and then remove the plastic trim panel that surrounds the trunk latch. Then it is just unscrewing the plastic retainers that hold the right side trunk panel in. You'll then roll it towards the front of the car. The unit is mounted behind a brace towards the right side taillamp.

+1 on that. I think I got a little sidetracked myself, thinking of other possibilities (such as no ignition or injector operation) to explain why the engine didn't start when you hot-wired the fuel pump. For all we know, that may have been caused by air in the lines or low fuel pressure, and not necessarily be a true fault. Let's stick to troubleshooting the one hard fault staring us in the eye: the inoperative fuel pump.

I pulled up the 2002 wiring diagrams and notice it was different than the excerpt Cambo had posted. It appears he was looking at the 2002.5 wiring diagrams. I'm a bit fuzzy on the details, but somewhere in the later half of 2002, big changes were made for the upcoming model year. However, some of those cars were sold as 2002 models, even though they had all the later features of 2003 cars. Before we proceed, we should clarify exactly which diagram is correct for your car.

There are two easy methods to determine early or late models.

1) For cars with an automatic transmission, look at the bezel at the base of the shift lever. Early models have a 5-speed transmission, and D=5. To the left, you will see 2, 3, 4. Late models have a 6-speed. D=6, with 2, 3, 4, 5 to the left.

2) Look at the shape of the rear power distribution box in the trunk.

The early models have a rectangular box set at an angle:

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.jag...7d84bf0223.jpg





Later models have a curved box, kind of like a banana or half of a boomerang:

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.jag...a2b38f9e6c.jpg



Please let us know which features match your car so we can use the correct wiring diagrams.

Sorry this process is going so slow. That's a drawback of online troubleshooting, but at least the price is right.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.jag...fe22a284c9.jpg

I've got this model ! :) I can recognize the rear Fusebox ! ;)

I spent half an hour today, I found the REM (Rear Electronic Module), under the REM there is a black plastic cover preventing the trunk of water !!

It seems that it is not hermetic, the place is very humid !!!

Here's two pictures :

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.jag...d1a54cfc8d.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.jag...739c5edbe4.jpg





I don't know about this part (I can switch up or down the red clip)

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.jag...ebb2a88643.jpg


Is it possible to test the REM ?

If it's a 4.2 it'll be a MY 2002.5 facelift.

It's a 4.2L ! :)

Okay, making some progress. The link in a previous message was for the earlier wiring diagram, and should not be used. I'm glad Cambo caught that, and the 2002.5 wiring diagrams are here:

http://www.jagrepair.com/images/Auto...42002.50en.pdf


Scroll down to fig 3.4 for the fuel pump and RECM. I want to check some basics like power and ground before worrying that the RECM is faulty.

First thing I noticed is that fuse F47 in the trunk. In the wiring diagram, it's just to the left of the fuel pump relay. Have you checked this fuse yet? Earlier models don't have this fuse, and since I was using the wrong wiring diagram, I never knew to have you check it.

Next, let's check the operation of the R15 fuel pump relay in the trunk. See page 17 of the wiring diagrams for the relay and fuse location at each panel.

Place your finger on the relay and have a helper cycle the key from OFF to RUN and then back to OFF. You should feel the relay click as it gets energized. Make sure you're not detecting a click from an adjacent relay, as more than one will cycle with the key. If R15 clicks as it should, that tells us at least a portion of the control circuit is working.

If no click at R15, try swapping the relay with another of the same size. R7 for the blower motor would be a good one to try, as long as you know it is good. To test R7, turn the key to RUN and manually toggle up the fan speed at the AC/Heat control panel. If the fan works, then R7 is good. Swap R7 in place of R15 and try the click test again for R15.

If still no click at R15, even with a known-good relay, let's check the control circuit for R15. If you're not familiar with how a relay works, it's just a small electromagnet (typically shown at the bottom of the relay illustration) that operates a heavy-duty switch (shown at the top of the relay). It's basically a remote control switch, where a small current through the electromagnet controls a larger current through the switch contacts. Unplug the relay and look at the prongs for any sign of damage. If discolored, that means the socket was loose and arcing/overheating occurred.

If no damage, look at the numbers next to each prong. Typically, only the prongs on the relay are labeled, but not the sockets on the panel. You will have to make note of which socket is which. Insert your voltmeter's red lead into socket #1. You may have to use a paper clip (or similar) to let the meter lead make good contact. Put the meter's black lead on the battery (-) post. Turn the key to ON and you should see battery voltage. Turn the key to OFF and the voltage should drop to zero. If you don't get any power here with the key ON, check the inertia switch and fuse F4 at the primary junction box in the cabin.

The next step is to check for good continuity to ground at socket #2. Switch your meter to ohms and make sure you have good continuity from socket #2 to the battery (-) post. These two steps are the (switched) power and ground for the electromagnet inside the relay.

If those two steps were good, then a good relay should pass the click test. Now let's test the actual battery power being sent to power the pump (via the RECM, if you want to get particular). At relay socket #3, you should have full battery power present at all times. Power here is not switched via the key, it's always available. If no power is present, check fuse F23 in the trunk.

If the relay passes the click test, that still doesn't mean power is being sent across the switch contacts (from socket #3 over to #5). The easiest way to test for proper operation is to swap in a known-good relay, as described above.

If all of the above checks good, it's time to check the basics at the RECM. The RECM has three (!) power inputs and all must be good for the pump to run properly. Look at page 27 of the wiring diagrams to see how the connectors and individual pins are labeled. The RECM has 5 connectors. For now, we will only be concerned with CA100 and CA101. CA 100 is the small back connector in the middle of the four on one side. CA101 is the larger black connector at the end of the same row, the plug with 4 larger contacts at one edge.

Start by checking for good continuity to ground at CA101 pin #2 (CA101-2). This is a black wire.

Next, let's check the three power inputs at the RECM. Relay F15 (tested above) must be installed:

At CA101-1 (Green wire with red stripe), check for battery power when the key is turned to ON. This power source comes through relay F15 and fuse F47.

At CA101-3 (Brown wire), battery power should be present at all times. If not, check fuse F20 in the trunk.

At CA100-8 (This is the small black plug, green wire with blue stripe), check for battery power when the key is turned ON. If not present, check the inertia switch and fuse F4 at the primary junction box in the cabin. This is the same power supply as the R15 relay socket #1, tested above.

If all of the above checks good, test for continuity through the fuel pump itself. At RECM connector CA101, test for continuity between pins 11 (red wire) and 12 (yellow wire). I don't know the exact specs, but would expect to see around an ohm or two.

Sorry, forgot to reply to this observation earlier. Do any of the connectors appear to have any water damage? Do you see any evidence of water filling the trunk? These cars are notorious for water leaking into the trunk. If enough water collects, this can cause the electronics back there to misbehave.

We have had several reports of water causing problems, but I can't remember the symptoms. I think some of the rear lights may have acted up, but am not sure. I don't remember any fuel pump problems, though. Good news, though, because I do remember in at least one case, everything went back to normal after the trunk had a chance to dry out thoroughly.

It might be worthwhile to leave the trunk open and set up a fan to circulate the air. Disconnect the battery so it doesn't run down.

Do the rear lights work normally? They are all controlled by the RECM, so it would be good to observe their behavior.

A huge thanks for the help !!

You are awesome !!!

F47 in the trunk is fine, Next, the same for R15 fuel pump relay in the trunk.

Control circuit for R15 and prongs are good

Fuse #4 in the cabin is not blown, the same for fuse F23 in the trunk.


The trunck wasn't so wet, I dried the few water of it, then plugged back the REM and no power to fuel pump :(

REM is in good condition and works fine

I checked wires from the trunck to to fuel pump, no problem here.

Inertia Switch and it fuse are ok and working...

I'm 80% percent sure that it might be the crankshaft sensor...

Time is out, I cant lift off the car (the place isn't safe enough), i'm disappointed, regarding to the mileage of that Jag, I think this car might become a money sink....

It has been a very great and former experience...


It's time to say goodbye to this lovely car :(

I will save some parts before the car leaves to the car's yard...


A huge thanks again to all of you... !!! :)

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.jag...878e095e05.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.jag...2e4e6ddb60.jpg

Also here are my 2 XJ40 !! ;)

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.jag...b049d4d085.jpg

Well, what a shame. Thanks for humoring me and doing all of those checks.

The only thing I didn't see mentioned was if you had tried swapping a known-good relay into the R15 spot. But it sounds like you're out of time, I get it.

Stiil, it's sad. At the very worst, if all the inputs are good, you've probably had a failure in the RECM. Even that is no big deal. IIRC, no reprogramming is required if you can locate a used replacement with the exact same part number.

For anybody else with similar symptoms, I'm pretty sure an independent Jaguar specialist will have the proper scanner interface to get more detailed troubleshooting info, such as various module faults. I think (not 100% sure) the scanner can command the RECM to run the pump as a test, too. If so, a small fee for diagnostic time would be money well spent.

This is a big what if....but what if the inertia switch is faulty, even though it is not tripped....is it easy to bypass with a wire with clips, or verify continuity with a test light or volt meter....it was running then stopped like the ignition was turned off.....Karl has gone through every scenario I can think of and more.... something switched has failed as has been covered extensively....it will be one of those step over a dollar to pick up a dime situations I bet

This is not far-fetched at all.

Something I haven't really covered is how basic voltage checks can give a misleading positive indication. In an unloaded circuit, a marginal connection can let just enough electrons squeak through to show good voltage for the teensy current draw of a meter. But when you power up the device, current flow drops far below what is required.

For electrical troubleshooting, it's VERY important to realize a good voltage reading is NOT conclusive when the circuit is unloaded. An unloaded voltage reading will find total failures such as a blown fuse, broken wire, etc. However, it won't find most partial failures such as dirty switch contacts, loose crimps, etc.

Whenever possible, I like to test a circuit while loaded (The circuit, not me) but this is not always practical. A test light can be better than a meter because it draws more current, but this may not make much difference in a high current circuit.

But alas, we are out of time with this car to dig deeper. I'd be willing to bet your reputation that this car could easily live again without much expense, but oh well.

FWIW, when I was just a young pup in my career, barely capable of holding a flashlight, we had a 757 out of service for two days due to a defective hydraulic pump circuit breaker. It had tripped, but not 100%. The circuit passed an unloaded voltage check, but wouldn't run the pump. By the third pump, we were all getting suspicious. A voltage drop test on that wire run under load quickly pinpointed the problem. We had been following the Boeing troubleshooting manual to the letter with no joy. Even the Boeing engineers who wrote the manual never included that extra step. Lesson learned for me about how an unloaded voltage check is a good starting point, but is NEVER conclusive.

well I hope mighty Boeing noticed your capabilities and did something nice for you Karl....too bad about this car...I think he is close to getting it going

It's a big shame I agree, If I could parked it in a garage just in front of my house I'll do it !!!

However I don't own a third garage... :(

As It can't be driven If I park it in the street I'll have troubles...

The owner of this Jag doesn't want to wait anymore, I've spent a lot of energy, each day of the week, I went to the car after a long working day...

I'm having my exams in 2 weeks and I also need to study... It's not easy, but believe me I'm very sad to see this car leave :'(

I tried to swap R15 Relay with an another one and the fuel pump still not running ;(

To bypass the Inertia Switch with a wire with clips is one of the first thing I done when I met the car :) It is no faulty...

This issue issue is cutting fuel pump power, there's no power coil and no pressure in the injectors rail..

The problem appeared at a traffic light, the engine stopped working, and when trying to restart nothing

And today the engine doesn't start anymore...