Ok,Sorry for confusing thoughts.I tend to want to get things perfect,knowing thats a very fine line.
I really understand the concept,and positions,it is just the distributor adjustnent that was confusing for me.Ill set timming mark A on pully at 0° and distributor adjustment all the way retarded,Like grant said.Im sure hands on experience which you guys obviously have,is the best option without a dought.
So now,with new ign components and correct timming,it should fire.
Ill let you know.
Thanks for the help..

 

Ok,I did get the old beast to fire,but not very good.
I left timming mark A on crank pully at 0° on timming scale.
I put dist in with rotor pointing at aprox 10:30 looking towards radiator.I then set distributor timming scale at 50% between retard and advance.hooked everything up and sprayed a little starting fluid in both breather pipes and it tried to start.I then put the accelerator pedal all the way down and car struggled but started up.It poped just a couple of times.
It will only keep running if I have accelerator pedal all the way down,and it only idles it doesnt rev up.If I let up on accelerator pedal it stalls.It only ran about 20 seconds.
So why didnt it rev up with accelerator pedal all the way down?And why wont it start,without touching acceleretor pedal??
I did notice,my Vacuum/electric throttle switch and my throttle micro switch are not hooked up.Also there is another micro switch on throttle cable,in a little metal plate.what is that for possable kick down? its not hooked up either.

 

OK we're actually getting somewhere now so at least we know we have spark. When you try again make sure all your cables are connected and you have not left any pipes off especially vacuum and there are many of them. One of those micro switches is the kickback, the Microswitch on the cable is the kickdown has two wires a green and a green/white. The other I beleive is the throttle position switch when engaged opens all injectors fully, I think, I maybe wrong too. The black round unit under the capstan is the fuel potentiometer that tells the ECU how much fuel is needed, I'm not sure how to test it, but I can certainly find out.
have you checked if you have fuel, sounds stupid but I know somebody that has made that mistake also, is the fuel pump working? just sounds like it could be starving, is the fuel filter OK or the fuel stale?

 

Yep, agreed. we are now on the first rung of a very tall ladder.

Back to the timing, BORING I know, I AM OLD, and can time these beasts in my sleep, its that simple, and I am not convinced this is timed correctly. This O'clock talk makes obsolutely no sense to me.

With the timing on TDC zero on 1A comp stroke, the rotor tip MUST be covering the #1A spark plug terminal, as marked in the distributor cap. That also has ONE of the 12 points on the star wheel smack in the middle of the reluctor contact. If this is "not so" the base timing is NOT correct.

From the centre of the balance pipe at the rear of the engine is a spigot with a 10mm hose attached. This hose is the vac feed TO the ECU in the boot. The ECU uses vac (among other things) to regulate fuel, and the LESS vac it senses, the more fuel it supplies, and vice versa. Check this hose is not blocked, as many are.

The TPS, under the throttle capstan, is essential for proper signal the ECU. Its setting is fiddly, but mandatory. It compliments the vac signal. I have all this in a Word doco, and will email it if asked via a PM. I tried to upload here waaaaay back, and it failed, maybe I should try again??

Then comes the CTS (coolant temp sensor) and its wiring (or lack of). If this thing is NOT connected you are wasting your time trying to start a HE V12. Unplug that sucker with the engine running and death is instant.

Next is the infamous shielded wire from the ign amp TO pin #18 of the ECU. It supplies an ignition pulse (like a tacho pulse) to the ECU to enable fuel injection activation. It fails from old age and damage, and if the ECU sees NO pulse, the injectors do not work, and the engine don't run. Sometimes its erratic, so odd running is possible. The integrity of this signal wire is paramount.

Obviously, the fuel system, as in pump, filter, pipes etc being clean and working as designed is required.

Vac leaks will kill this engine in a heart beat, so if you got pipes/nipples you don't know what goes where, plug them all for now, basically getting the engine back to the good old days prior to emissions junk. There are some on the rear of the RH inlet, some more under the RH throttle body, and the LH throttle body. The small hoses to each FPR also should be intact and in GOOD condition.

The micro switch on teh throttle cable (covered by a matal cover thingy) is teh trans kick down, forget it for now.

The micro on the throttle capstan is for fuel enrichment, in conjunction with the Blue/White vac switch. Also not real critical at this time.

 

Thanks you guys for all the info.
Seems like a lot of veriables on this engine.Sounds very complicated.
Ok I do have a new high volume fuel pump and filter.I also cleaned out sump tank,and replaced the little screen filter.I do have some wires not hooked up and the vacuum hose from vacuum throttle switch is bot hooked up to anything.I tested vacuum advance on distributor,its not working.
There is no water/antifreeze in radiator so I disconnected the coolant temp sensor plug and jumpered it whith a wire.I will check all vacuum hoses,and Ill test the throttle position switch under capstand my book shows how to test and adjust it.
From what I was reading,doesnt the vacuum throttle switch and throttle micro swith have to be hooked up and work together to supply signal to ecu for more fuel to injectors.?Or is it just the tps that signals ecu for more fuel,when accelerator is pressed?

 

OK,

Skipping to the chase.jectors CLICK.

Turn ON the ignition, rotate the throttle capstan, you SHOULD hear the injectors CLICK, all 12 at the same time. If so the TPS and the ECU are warm and fuzzy.

The micro switch, and the Blue/White vac switch are used for 2 things. 1st, the vac switch has open contacts WITH vac, and when acceleration is called for, the vac drops, the contacts CLOSE, the ECU enriches the fuel by approx 10%. 2nd, when the throttle capstan gets to a given point (there is cam under the cable slot) the micro switch activates and also enriches fuel by 10%, BUT, only ONE works to do the task at a time, as in the 2 units cannot enrich the fuel by a total of 20%. If one is doing its thing, the other will activate but do nothing. Worry not about these for now, they will NOT stop it starting.

Some books talk of a "Throttle Position Switch", be CAREFUL, this is for PreHE, and NOT, repeat, NOT your car. The HE has a "Throttle Position Sensor", and is a variable resistor. The PreHE is a SWITCH, with multiple switching positions as the throttle is opened.

HE= P Digital system.
PreHE = D Jetronic.

 

Ok,Wow what a bit of info on these cars.
Please email me the word doco.( camcbride1986@gmail.com)I appriciate it.Also Ill try the tp sensor thing with injector,and let you know.
I need to find those wires for the micro switch on capstan.(throttle tower).Also like I said the blue and white vacuum/ throttle switch isnt hooked up to anything.electrical,or vacuum, Ill post pictures on my garage of my wires not hooked to anything maybe you can recognize where they go?I cant figure them out..Ill also check that 10mm hose at rear of eng by bulkhead,for ecu..vacuum.
thanks for your help..again

 

Cliff, email sent just now.

That Blue/White and the throttle micro are wired together and go back to the ECU. I have a wiring diagram somewhere, and when i find it I will email you. For the sake of getting this thing started, forget them for now, they will not stop it starting.

A suggestion on that hose. Disconnect it at the ECU (a tad fiddly), and at the balance pipe (rear of engine), and blast some comp air thru it. They have a bad habit of clogging up with oil/moisture over time. Once cleaned, reconnect at the ECU, then suck on the engine end, and ensure it "holds" vac. It MUST hold vac.

 

ok,the vacuum hose that goes to ecu,I looked at rear of eng I saw a dome shaped metal thing with a very small vacuum line attached,but no hose that is 10mm is it a metal pipe by eng?I saw a horizontal hose looks like heater hose that goes under that dome shaped thing.
I took the hose off at ecu and blew in it,it does blow through,does that mean it may be detached somewhere.?
Just looked under car around left side(as looking out wind screen from drivers seat)and couldbnt find any ground straps.I looked between power steering unit and oxy sensor all arund motor mount area.
Someone put this big wide cross beam in way,hard to see around.lol
Does it look like flat braided wire?
Also,I tried the throttle test for fuel injectors.I turned ign on ,fuel pump came on for 3 seconds,I turned throttle pully,and heard no clicks from injecters.I repeated it 5 times, nothing.Do injectors make a very distinct sound you can hear?
Ok,Just found vacuum hose for ecu,disconneted it from cross over pipe.and disconnected it at ecu.I blew through it easy,no blockage.I then hooked it back up to ecu,and tried to blow through from eng area,cant do it. If i applied vacuum from a hand pump at eng area,it holds.

 

That is a little concerning, I am trying to figure out an easy test to see if anything is getting to your injectors or not. Have you got a 6-24v light tester you can use? Unplug one injector I don't care which one and repeat the test with it plugged to the light tester instead of the injector, then repeat for each injector, I realise its a bit of a long way round things. If a pulse gets through it will light the bulb, if not check at where the harness plug's in on the right hand side up towards the radiator, you could be suffering from the dreaded burnt out injector harness, where only a few if that injectors will actually receive power.

 

Ok,ill check that today,and im going re check timming,and let you know.
Thanks

 

Following Katoh's suggestion.

Up the front RH side of the engine bay, mounted on the rear panel of the headlamp dome is the EFI resistor pack. The plug for this goes IN from the bottom. It gets GRUBBY, and reeks havoc. Unplug it, clean it all up, use a razor blade and "part" the pins a SMALL amount, and replug it.

The loom that goes FROM it, up over the RH cam cover, and feeds the injectors is a known problem loom. Especially where it travels UNDER the a/c compressor.

The earth straps (2) should be: engine to cradle, then cradle to chassis. They are/should be at the LH engine mount area, coz thats the bolts used for connection. They are a flat braided strap item, and reek havoc. The power steer cooler is in the same area, but they should be clearly visible.

Next is the actual plug AT the ECU. Reach in and pop the metal spring clip and unplug that thing. Use Lemon juice and clean all the gunge, rinse with solvent (carby cleaner p/pack is good), let is dry and replug. The fact the fuel pump "timer" is working I dont suspect it too highly, but elimination is needed.

I now believe, other than the timing being "out a tad" the TPS is toast. The 3 wire connector just aft of the TPS may be dirty, but I doubt it.

The dome thing you saw is the heater tap. It has a SMALL vac hose on top. Not stopping it from starting.

Being an '84, it probably has an ECU that is known as a 6CU in the boot. These were an issue, mainly with the fuel pump circuit, but yours works, good. The later, about '86 somewhere, got a 16CU unit, which is superior in many ways, and is a direct plug and go if needed at some time in the future.

I have heard of some of these 6U units dying in the drive circuits for the injectors, and everything else still works fine. Not many, but getting more frequent as time/age marches on.

Those papers I sent you have the test/setting procedure for the TPS included. If not, or you are unsure, ask, and I will write one specific to that task. I have an '85 with a suspect TPS to sort on Wednesday. If I remember (haha), I will take the camera and snap some bits of interest that may assist you.

 

Ok,well that will keep me busy for a while. Ill check,clean and test,those items and get back to you guys with the results.
thanks

 

Ok,I found one braided strap,about 12mm wide.I can barely see it,very hard to get to.looks like it goes from motor mount to eng.I have not seen one going to body from eng.
On the TPS the paper you sent me on this says it should be between 0.32v-.036v How do I measure that.I did measure ohms
I cleaned ecu plug and pins.and also the poweer resistor plug.
I checked timming and when A mark on crank pully was at 24° BTDC rotor was pointing at 11:30 so I pulled distributor and retarded it so rotor points at 12:00 with A mark at 24° btdc.
Now what troubles me is I check spark from main coil I grounded coil lead to about 12mm from intake manifold bolt.turned over eng and I still only get a yellow sprark,not the blue spark like it should be.This I dont understand,cause coil basically ohms out to within limits.
This car is no longer a challenge its a Quest..

 

ok,heres what I found ohming TPS.Between yellow and green wire,on 20k scale.3.16 ohms closed throttle no change when at full throttle.
Between the red and green wires,on 20k scale,4.25 ohms fluctuates to 5.31 ohms with throttle closed. reads .25 to .35 ohms at full throttle
between yellow and red wires.0.71 ohms throttle closed, 3.25 ohms full throttle.
Hope this makes sence..

 

yes I do have a pulse with the test light.every injector does pulse when eng is turning over.

 

You have just about got me stumped now, I wasn't expecting that. I was expecting maybe 3-4 out of the twelve to pulse the light not all. Ok where not done just yet, at least a bit like Sherlock Holmes its a matter of deduction, We have spark and we have the injectors pulsing but its not getting the fuel, I'm sure you said the pump was working or did you say it came on and switched off? Its meant to be continuous, on all the time, have you changed the fuel filter? could be just blocked to the hilt.
I will be waiting again to see what happens.

 

OK, there must be a strap from that strap TO the body/chassis. They are more often missing than intact. My suggestion is to go get a battery cable with "eye to eye" ends, and install in from the engine (sump bolt) direct to the chassis (I use the rear bolt on the cradle V mount where it attaches to the chassis).

The TPS test and setting is specific, and I will write it up for you tomorrow after work.

The earth straps, or lack of, I reckon are related to the spark issue. Time will tell when the earth straps are sorted.

The timing still has me a tad confused with this o'clock stuff. The distributor cap has ONE post that has a #1 cast next to it. This is 1A plug lead. So with 1A on TDC compression stroke, the rotor points AT this terminal post. The clock relation has nothing to do with it.

 

Yep, saves me writing it.

Probe the Yellow and Red. Meter set on Vdc, lowest scale you have, and with ign ON, the volts should be 0.32 - 0.36. If not, then the 3 screws under the plate need to be loosened slightly and the TPS rotated CAREFULLY until that reading is obtained.

Then SLOWLY open the throttle, ign still ON, watch the readings, and note if there is a STEADY rise in volts to about 5v at WOT. Sometimes a digital meter is no good for this rising test, so I use an old analogue style, as the needle flicks if the TPS is flaky, whereas a DVM will dampen that operation. If a nice steady rise is noted, the TPS is deemed OK. If a flicking needle is noted the TPS is dead, and the ECU will react with all sorts of havoc.

 

The pump comes on for 2 seconds on ign, then stops (ECU timer) and again the whole time you are cranking.

So when you crank it, someone will need to have their head in the boot to hear the pump, as the starter motor will drown out you hearing that up the front.