Convertible top latch hydraulic problem
 

Yesterday I pushed the button to let the top down on my 2004 XK8. The top began to respond. Then suddenly the top stopped and greenish fluid beganpouring from the area just under the convenience center under the latch assembly. Obvioulsy a hydraulic hose or seal burst and the fluid ran out.

Is this a common problem? Is this something I can repair?? If so, how doI access the area??? And how doI replace the fluid????

HELP!!!!!!

RE: Convertible top latch hydraulic problem
 

Both the power latch and the hoses tend to fail. The latch is not too bad of a job. The hoses are a real mess to change. Not too technical, but a lot of interior pieces must be removed to change them.

RE: Convertible top latch hydraulic problem
 

After researching and chatting with several jag owners and enthusiests,I learned there is a HOSE REPAIR KIT available from the Jaguar Dealerships. I called my localdealership andI ordered the kit (JAGUAR PART NUMBER HJB825BA)

It costs just over $200.00 (about the same as the 2 new hoses) butsupposedly eliminates the dissambly of the inside of the car. i dont know if it will work for mebutI amgoing to look around insde the header area tonight to see what the damage looks like and then i will be able to recognizewhether or not the kit will help me.

Wish me luck.

Anyone had any experience with the KIT???

RE: Convertible top latch hydraulic problem
 

Just finished putting it back together this morning! No leaks . . . so far.

Couple notes: The kit does not come with any instructions. One vital piece of information - the piece that screws onto the hose has LEFThanded threads. Screw in onto the hose until it is just short of all the way in. If the black hose covering is not in good condition down at the fuse panel area I would suggest that you use the complete replacement hoses. Another Jagnut with bad covering is having a leak problem. You will notice that the covering easily crumbles up at the top latch.

The JTB00029 that introduced the repair kit indicates the hoses should be cut at the middle of the fuse panel opening. If I had done that they would have been 4 or 5" short. I made a loop back in the kick panel area in case I needed to redo the splice. Ended up using half of it to make the hoses long enough.My splice couplings ended up a couple inches above the white upper hose retainer in the fuse panel opening in order to properly route to the latch cylinder.

There is no information on bleeding the lines in the JTB but I made sure that fluid came out of the hoses before connecting them to the latch cylinder. Then I left the connections loose and the latch panel outside the car and ran fluid both ways to bleed the piston area. Lots of bubbles came out.

Make sure to install the connectors with the cut hoses out through the fuse panel opening. I do not know howyou wouldget the hoses back up through the area with the connectors installed.

The JTB just says to remove the fuse panel. I cannot see a way to get the connectors off the back without removing the kick panel below the steering wheel. Upper and lower nuts are not hard to remove but a bear to put back on. I had to stick them in the socket with double backed tape in order to get them back on.

I would be happy to email you the JTB if you would like or answer any other questions you might have. Sure wish I had the above information last Saturday.

RE: Convertible top latch hydraulic problem
 

Thanks for the info. i will 'eye ball' the area tonight and get the kit tomorrow so your info will certainly come in handy.I hope i wont need any other info but i will let you know if i get stuck. will post my results soon i hope!!!

Thanks again.

RE: Convertible top latch hydraulic problem
 

This would be a great place to post pictures of the procedure. I'm sure you aren't the only one that has a convertible, and a potential leaking sieve! (i.e. me)

RE: Convertible top latch hydraulic problem
 

Matt,

I owe you one anyway. Got the car back together today with the top working without leaks but blowing the fuse to the body processor module (BPM). I think I know what the problem is but it is late in the day and I have had a couple of those peat flavored drinks. Get to it tomorrow morning. Scan tool next. You need any help with the hoses I'll be there. Be in touch.

RE: Convertible top latch hydraulic problem
 

Thanks for all the info so far. this is not nealry as scary once i read your info and removed the header.

So, I purchased the hose repair kit and disassembled the header. The leak was located right at one ofthe hose connectors.I began tracing the current hoses down the A-Pillar to the fuse panel at the end of the dashboard.I see very little room to work around the fuse panel. I see no way to get around the fuse panel itself.I removed the kick panel but still cant work around the fuse panel.

Am i to remove the fuse panel and if so, how does one go about doing that? Between the edge of the dash board and the fuse panel,I see no way to safely get the hoses out of the two white retaining clips. what am i missing???

Thanks for the info, please dont leave me now!!!

RE: Convertible top latch hydraulic problem
 

No one is going to abandon you!

Yes, you have to remove the fuse panel. I hope, by now, that you have removed the negative battery connection. Please do so now if you haven't. On the back of the fuse panel are two connectors. The top one has a release tab on the top. Hold it down and wiggle the connector off. The bottom one release tab is on the bottom. Remove the nut on the positive lead. Remove the nuts at the top center and bottom center of the fuse panel. These are impossable to see and even harder to replace. I used double backed tape to hold the nuts in the socket when installing. The panel can now be removed. Top end out first. Now, wasn't that easy? The hoses can now be easily removed from the white clips.

See my post above for where to cut the hoses. Make the connections with hoses out through the fuse panel door. The idea of a loop back in the kick panel area is a good idea.

Yell if you need to talk more.

tp

RE: Convertible top latch hydraulic problem
 

ok, thanks, but I must be missing a big step here. How and where do I gain access to the back of the fuse panel? I see no way to get behind it.

I guess i'm stuck until i can get the fuse panel out. I took today off to try and resolve this issue. Thanks for your continued support.

RE: Convertible top latch hydraulic problem
 

You do not need to remove the fuse panel. Get a hook tool and pop the hoses loose from the white clip.
We have had limited success with the repair kit. When they work, they work well.
The system self bleeds into the reservoir. Just running the top up and down will allow it to self bleed.
I normally remove lines from the latch, pull them through the a pillar and then out the fuse box cover hole. Then just cut them cleanly and attatch repair kit. Simple job. I prefer the entire line myself though.
Funny, 97 and 98 cars didnt leak like that. They changed the lines in 99. Can't have Ajax without a leak now can we....LOL

RE: Convertible top latch hydraulic problem
 

For us inexperienced folks it seemed like easier to just remove the fuse panel like the JTB said. Everything we do on the car is a new and exciting first time experience.

You have to remove the kick panel below the steering wheel. Two bolts at the lower corners and two clips at the upper ones. Just pull them loose. The back of the fuse panel is right there.

I would be happy to be available to talk to you on the phone to answer any immediate questions. Send me a PM as I cannot figure out how to do that on this forum without publishing it for the world. I'll keep looking. Leaving for lunch in a few minutes but will give you a cell number if I can discover the PM code.

RE: Convertible top latch hydraulic problem
 

To send PM, just click where it says PM under his name.

RE: Convertible top latch hydraulic problem
 

well after reading all of this great info, i called the local dealerthinking they would not give me the time of day (sell me the time of day perhaps, but not give it away). I askedfor the service dept, and i told the service writer what i am doing andi asked if i could talk to their tech that does the hoses for them.

they puthim right on the phone. I told him i was as far a the fuse panel and asked where to go from there. He said he removes the weather strip from beside the fuse panel opening and snake the hoses out beside the fuse panelwith out removing the fuse panel.

so itried that and presto.....excellent access. i left a little extra hose coiled behind the kick panel just in case and completed the job in 2 hours. i did bleed the hoses and refilled the resevoir and the top works like a champ.

Thanks for all the wonderful assistance. I would have been forever trying to figure out all the littletricks to this job that you guys shared so freely.I'm gonna take a shower and take a drive in my2004 XK8....with the top down!!!

RE: Convertible top latch hydraulic problem
 

Atta boyHenry!

I had one more bit of entertainment while putting it back together. Crimpted the lead going the micro switches, blew fuse #7 on driver's side. The wires were clamped between the hoses and the latch assembly. The micro switches are not listed on the fuse description so had to noodle through the wiring diagrams. Haven't spent so much time with schematics in 30 years. Bought this toy for entertainment, sure getting that.

I did put the newly operatable top down today and spent a couple hour on twisty mountain roads. Love this car.

RE: Convertible top latch hydraulic problem
 

Glad to see you guys successfully got your tops working again. Good job.

I've just discovered the same leak under the latch, seeping through mesh cover between the two interior ceiling lights.

It's at the dealer now to get fixed at about $1300. It's an all day job apparently, so most of that cost is just the labor. It's great you can save the money if you can do it yourself, but I don't quite have the either the facility or faculty to do the fix myself.

I would suggest calling the 800 number for Jaguar customer service. You see there was a bulletin and repair kit that would have ended up costing the owner only a few hundred dollars for the repair. However, the repair kit is not readily available from Jaguar anymore so they have to do the complete hose replacement. This is not the owner's fault and you may be able to argue your case. This is basically what happened with me. Since the repair kit was not available the dealer was able to do the complete replacement and have it covered by Jaguar. If you don't ask you don't get so give it a try.

Doug

Thanks for the tip. I made a few calls, doesn't look it'll be possible to get Jaguar to pay the bill. At least I gave it a try.

Being that there's only one Jaguar dealership in all of Kentucky, I'm limited as to where I can go to fix a problem that's particular to the XK8.

If you look on my web page you will find information relating to the roof hose replacement. I hope this helps.

Well, more bad news. As the tech was replacing the leaking hose, he found the ram was leaking, too. Or I believe he said it's the ram. So closing one leak will add pressure to the other leak. Ack... bottomline, it's another $600 to replace the ram or whatever part that's causing the other leak. I'm guessing duct tape isn't going to work.

Hi Gus, you have a great site!

The hydraulic pump behind the CD player, is that the ram the dealer is referring to? I was just looking at it last night while I was back for another reason and the amount of fluid in the container looked fine, definitely within the fill max/min lines.

Thanks!

Montauke, one of my rams (the 'piston' that raises and lowers the top) was leaking too when they replaced the lines. My dealer just replaced both, just to be thorough, but fortunately, i had the warranty to cover my cost. sorry my friend

I got some clarification from the dealer. It's not the hydraulic pump by the CD changer or the ram, both of those items are fine. It's the hydraulic block that connects the line by the latch that's the cause of the second leak.

And yes, I double-confirmed, it cannot be fixed by the miracle of duct tape unfortunately.... Nuts, my solution to everything isn't going to save me this time :-(

I would still try and find a sympathetic customer service rep at the 800 number. This is a very well documented and chronic problem with these cars (when I called the person I spoke with was quite familiar with the problem). Regardless of official policy, there is always some discretionary solution that Customer Service could offer (at least maybe cover a portion of the repair?). The worst they can say is no, at which point you can let loose with how disappointed you are.

Doug

Hi Doug, thanks again for the tip. I called the 800 number for Jaguar. Unfortunately, it's a no-go on getting Jaguar to cover any of the repair costs.

I am not sure but I think you are referring to the latch actuator for the roof that the hoses connect to. If that is the case I have been told that the latch could clog or fail, replacing it is the right thing to do. I have been trying to get my hands on one to evaluate it and the hose. When I attempted to get a failed one from Jaguar they told me that it was the property of the owner of the car and they could not give it to me. If you can get all the failed parts (Latch, connector and hoses) and send them to me I will pay for the shipping. I am trying to gather all the information I can to help others on my page. I have written the company that designed the entire latch company but have not received a thing from them yet. I hope soon!

Hi Gus, sure, I can ask the dealer to hold on the part for me. Apparently, the block (or actuator) is a ~$400 part, with labor, final cost is about $600 to replace. The service department is closed through the weekend, I'll give them a call on Monday.

If you can get all the parts that would be great. Send me an e-mail and I will send you my address.

Hey Gus,

If you're trying to re-engineer this cob job, what's wrong with a solenoid actuated latch? Unless there is some relevance to roll over standards, I don't see why this mechanism needs hydraulic control. For the sake of analogy, think door lock plate/ actuator motor.

I'm not saying it is an easy redesign, but it won't ever leak.

As I opined on another forum, one solution would be to totally eliminate the automatic hydraulically operated latch and, instead, opt for manual latching since it seems like 90% of these hydraulic leaks/failures seems to be at the latch. The allen key works fine but I am sure someone could have easily designed something more aesthetic like some permanent lever in a wood or carbon fiber finish.

Doug

Doug,
You are correct! The existing system is a real problem. However, What I need is additional information to better understand the existing system. I e-mailed Power-Packers for additional information on the entire hyd system and I have not received anything yet. I have contacted Jaguar for info on the system but only received bits and pieces. You are correct but how to get both a manual/electrical and hyd system to work together is a task. I hope to have answers when I get all the information together.

What I was envisioning was having to top still go up and down hydraulically but at the end, the latch mechanism would be totally manual. This is basically what happened to me when the top was coming up one time and the latch ended up binding on the way up so that it not fully extend to accept the hook on the top. This ended up causing a system fault and I had to manually work the latch to close the top--this was really no big deal. That is when I started thinking that having only the latch mechanism as a manual operation would have been the right way to go, thus eliminating completely the hose that runs from the boot to the latch.

Doug

Doug,

Obviously your solution is the best one, but I still wonder whether there is some reason for the oversophistication of this system beyond the consideration of driver convenience. For all the discussion about convertible tops, nobody ever examined the possibilty that the intricate design employed was mandated by other underlying concerns. I never thought of it as an inconvenience to reach up and flip the two top latches closed on a factory XJS convertible. They never leak either.

Gus, it is admirable to redesign windmills instead of fighting them, but that raises a different set of underlying issues. You would have to proof an alternate design and set up production that is fully supported with product liability protection. That's not a significant concern when repairing individual cars, when all you have to do is find a local hydraulic supplier to make you a set of better hoses and you're done.

I dismissed the whole idea of marketing upgraded hoses for those reasons, and they are completely valid when considered against the total number of hose kits that I could actually sell after going through the motions. Then I read about some guy in Hawaii who claims to be an engineer, and futher claimed that he had a handle on all of the pertinent information and was developing his fix for the benefit of the world's convertible owners. From all of my research, this apparently was just another case of somebody quick with ideas and insults who didn't do a thing to help secure a conclusion, or a single latch for that matter. A spiffy T handle does alot better job than that.

My guess is that the design team thought it would be totally slick, and perhaps appropriate, for a car of this caliber and price to be totally automatic in terms of convertible top operation and that it would have been sacrilegious and tacky to expect the owner to have to latch the top manually. So the engineering team was too smart by a half and came up with this Rube Goldberg system of high pressure hoses running all over the car with no easy means to repair/replace.

Doug

Doug,

I agree completely, but I wonder if there wasn't some stipulation pertaining to either rollover standards, or to safety conerns involving cars being driven without a failsafe system that first insured top latching. Legislative mandates in either or both of those areas might have necessitated Mr. Goldberg's solutions, and I have read that Jaguar is not the only manufacturer who hired his design team for this application. All of this is speculation on my part, and it really isn't significant unless an aftermarket fix was contemplated for mass marketing. Then would be the time to investigate DOT or other relevant standards to make sure that an alternate to the factory latching system doesn't open the exposure to liablity concerns.

Just as a reference, the latch you would purchase from the dealer is the complete top plate not just the actuator. It includes the microswitches and wiring as well as all the mechanicals. Surely hydraulic operation was just a convenience but it is rather sophistacted with lock out above 10mph and microswitches signalling top open, latch open, latch closed and top closed. if any of the switches sends the wrong signal top operation is locked out until correct signals are restored. Any attempt to modify the system would have to include the switch signals to continue operation of the main top rams.

All of which could be done relatively easily by using a solenoid operated latching mechanism, just like door latch. And your "Surely" is an assumption, there might be design parameters that go beyond simply the question of having to manually flip a latch.

The old way might be the best. The old auto convertible tops had a motorized "nut" that accepted a bolt on the top. It just bolted the top closed. A lot easier to replace this mechanism if it failed and a lot less messy!

I know I've hijacked this thread which was started almost one year ago; it's good to revisit to have new insight.

Now, I can't recall where I read this, and it could totally be untrue, but is one source for the failing hose and latch components due to holding the "roof" button pressed long after the top mechanism has finished opening or closing at the "beep"? In other words, keeping the button pressed continues the hydraulic operation to function after the top has stopped, causing stress to the hydraulic components.

If this is true, then the convertible function does not cancel on its own at the "beep", i.e., the hydraulic operation is totally manual.

I would think that some sort of fail-safe exists so the top knows whether it's being raised or lowered and ends the operation once the top is fully up or down to CAUSE the "beep". Thus the "beep" is just acting as a reminder, not a command, to lift your finger off the button.

Can anyone confirm? Thanks!