My MY18 handbook says "Fuels containing up to 10% ethanol may be used" Also "Do not use E85 fuels as serious engine and fuel system damage will occur."

 

several points. First once the ethanol is extracted from the corn. Cattle, hog, chickens , horses etc love to feed on the resulting feed.
What is driving up the cost of all food is the cost of delivering it. That and added profit for grocery stores.
As far as small engines in lawn mowers, trimmers etc.
Those items are extremely price sensitive. Therefore engine parts ( and everything else ) are bought in high volume by manufactures at the lowest possible price.
You shouldn’t be surprised that they fail quickly. If they lasted a long time like in the past, a lot fewer would be sold.
Over winter? Add a little Staybil in the fall when you put it away.

 

Do you like a Beer or glass of wine? Maybe a drink with Bourbon or Scotch?
You’re drinking Ethanol.
Indy 500 cars use 100% ethanol and NASCAR LIMITS ETHANOL TO 15% ( to limit speed)
Drag racers are put in a faster class with alcohol. Same with land speed record racers at BONNEVILLE. Sprint cars don’t use anything but alcohol.
Watch articles about E85 on U tube and how it’s a magic elixir for boost!

 

If you were old enough you’d remember the glass bowl cars used to have in order to see how much water was in the gas. OK that was back in the 1940’s & 50’s but if you look at carefully restored cars from that era you’ll see it.
You see, all gasoline has some water in it. It’s part of extracting oil out of the ground. Then it sits in tanks at the refiners. In the space above the gas is air filled with the humidity air always has.
Then it’s dumped into the tanks at the service station which have be vented to allow air in when gasoline is pumped. Again humidity and maybe the filling spots allow some water to drip in. When opened to fill with gas.
FINALLY you add more water in because your tanks have to be vented to work.
Yep that air typically has some humidity.
So even pure gasoline has water in it.
Your engine likes a little water. SAE has articles about it. But long before Ethanol was added to gas water has been in gasoline.

 

You clearly are mixing Methanol with Ethanol.
Back post WW2 England had pool gas. 80? Octane? Mix a little methanol in and octane goes up! More power!!!
But Methanol is poison. Drink it you die. Get it on you and you die from cancer, breathe it and you die from lung cancer. Its’s made from coal wood even garbage. Nasty stuff
It will attack soft metal aluminum, brass copper Rubber, gaskets etc. eat it right up!!


Ethanol you drink regularly. BEER. WINE SCOTCH BOURBON all have ethanol as their alcohol
You even give it to LITTKE KIDS ( aspirin and other pill coatings). Mix with shellac to make a fine finish The smell n hospitals? Ethanol is used to sterilize things.
2 alcohols - easy to mix them but totally different.
Methanol very Bad
Ethanol Good.

 

E85 can’t be used in our Jaguars without modifications.
BUT NOT FOR THE REASON YOU THINK!!
Ethanol has extra free oxygen molecules. Each one allows more fuel to burn and thus more power to be made.
THE JAGUAR FUEL SYSTEM CAN NOT PROVIDE THE EXTRA FUEL ETHANOL REQUIRES.

As for METHANOL? Avoid it like the plague. Everything you THINK is bad about ethanol is what is wrong with Methanol
METHANOL is POISON attacks rubber, gaskets and soft metals like aluminum brass or copper. Drink it you Die, get it on you and cancer of your organs, breathe it and lung cancer!

ETHANOL IS GOOD! You drink it in BEER WINE OR DRINKS . You give it to your kids ( coating of pills, aspirin etc) paint shellac with it, sterilize hospitals,
It’s also wonderful for cars.

 

thermal energy? Are you trying to tell me that Ethanol has less power? Well, simply, you’re wrong.
Read the rule book about racing. Ethanol moves cars into faster classes. Indy 500 cars use 100% ethanol NASCAR LIMITS cars to 15% to control speed.
As for worse fuel mileage? You are 1/2 right. But not for the reason you think.
Ethanol has free oxygen molecules. That means it can burn more fuel and produce more power. We all know it takes more fuel to make more power.

 

Only slightly wrong there. ( most was spot on )
Ethanol does not reduce power. Just the opposite. It increases power because of the free oxygen molecules in alcohol compared to gasoline. In a given cylinder the more fuel you can burn, the more power you have but burning that extra fuel is what makes the added power.
One trivial point. America offers flex fuel vehicles( a $99 option on Fords . A sensor reads the fuel and adjusts the timing and fuel requirements accordingly.
Our Jaguars don’t have READ ONLY CAPABILITY ( It came right after OBD2). in other words we can’t reprogram our ECU’s
For that we’d need to go aftermarket like MAXXECU. Or MEGASQUIRT If we do then it’s a cheap sensor and a few key strokes. To automatically adjust for whatever you put in the tank.
I guarantee once you drive a car with E85 you’ll sing its praises. First time I tried it in my F150 pickup, I actually smoked my tires!! Total shock!

 

Just a small sample of interesting theories here:

Energy density of ethanol is less than gasoline. It takes considerably more ethanol than gasoline to produce the same horsepower.
Liquid ethanol does not have "free oxygen molecules" and it *is* the fuel.
Ethanol is more corrosive than gasoline.

Less than a minute of research would be all it takes to get some real information. Up to 10% ethanol is safe in modern vehicles. E85 is not unless the vehicle is certified for it.

 

Please look at the alcohol chain and compare it to the gasoline chain. Check the OXYGEN in each.
As far as corrosive? Have you mixed up methanol with ethanol?
It’s a common occurrence.
METHANOL IS VERY CORROSIVE!
ETHANOL. Is not.
Remember you drink ethanol every time you have Beer Wine or Bourbon(?Scotch, Gin etc

 

you are absolutely right about Methanol being corrosive
Plus, you are absolutely right that you need almost twice as much methanol as gasoline.
Except fuel has ETHANOL!!!! Not Methanol.
Ethanol is not corrosive.
Ethanol can use as much as 10% more than gasoline. But modern ECU’s can be reprogrammed or use alternative fuel curves. They use a cheap simple sensor to telll the ECU. What fuel is being used and it automatically uses that program. With 10% ethanol, timing is slightly advanced and fuel is adjusted very slightly.
With E85 timing is properly advanced and fuel is increased. My truck gets 20 mpg on E85 and 22 mpg on E10. But I save about $25 with a full fill up of E85.

Basic math here; I get 10% less MPG but save $25 per fill up. Once adjusted to the reduced mileage I’m still almost $20 per tankful ahead using E85.

 

This is simply incorrect. Pure ethanol is hygroscopic and attracts water. Every major manufacturer that has allowed E85 as an alternate fuel has changed several components in the fuel system to combat premature corrosion. Most small 2-stroke engine manufacturers have specific disclaimers that void the warranty if any gasoline higher than E10 is used because of the corrosiveness of the fuel compared to E10 or lower gasoline. The attraction of water in the presence of oxygen is what causes the corrosion so while ethanol as a compound is not corrosive, its chemical properties make E85 corrosive which is what this original discussion was about. Please do not spread erroneous information.

As for energy density, E85 has approximately 26-28% less energy per gallon compared to regular E10 or non-ethanol gasoline. It is simply less energy dense. Changing the mapping to save fuel also means less horsepower is being created. You may save money, but you're getting less MPG *and* less HP (in some cases significantly so).

 

I said neither of those things. I said you need more ethanol than gasoline for the same power. I said that ethanol is more corrosive than gasoline. The American Chemical Society states so, and a brief sampling of drag racing sites agree.

Pure ethanol is not, but it is hygroscopic (absorbs water) and when combined with water forms acids that corrode metal.

EDIT: Thunder Dump beat me by seven minutes, with more detail too!

 

You are correct. Ethanol is not corrosive Methanol is.
As far as water goes, yes any alcohol will absorb water.
But there is already water in gasoline!
Let’s go way back to the early days of gasoline. Long before ethanol was added.
Gas pumps used to pump gasoline up into a glass tank the owner could look at and decide if there was too much water in the gas.
By the 40’s & 50’s glass bowls were used to tell how much water was in the gas.
Sometime after that SAE. Tested and found some water was good for the engine.
But water has always been present in gasoline. Water comes up with the crude oil
It happens in the tanks at the refinery delivery trucks gas station tanks and your cars tank.
So yeh, ethanol will collect water, up to 50% by weight of the alcohol present. Now how much of that water is already in the gas tank?

Let me just say that long before ethanol was introduced, gas tanks rusted out.

Why do I defend Ethanol? Aside from correcting the facts, I love it. In a racer and it makes additional power. Is good for the engine, and it’s cheap.

 

My two cents based on racing a car on E85.

It is less energy dense and you will burn more than typical pure or E10 gas. Your MPG will be less. In CA at least you will still get more miles per $ however, as E85 is cheaper.

Converting my car to E85 required a higher flow fuel pump and injectors.

Many folks who race go out of their way to ensure the E85 they burn has not been stored for months, and some buy testers to measure the water content. I burn up any E85 left after a track day in my flex fuel F150 on the way home.

E85 allows you to advance the ignition a bit, which allows you to make more power all other things being equal. I think you can advance the timing further than with normal gas because your engine runs a bit cooler on E85, but I'm not a tuner myself, so maybe someone else can speak to that.

 

Most drag racers don’t use ethanol . They use methanol. Because methanol makes more power than ethanol or gasoline. ( and costs less ).
Racers that use alcohol are put into faster classes than those using gasoline.
So either all racers are stupid and don’t know anything about engines or you have things wrong

 

so your saying run 91 not even 95 ? Scott nz xj300 😬

 

WHAT?????
I have raced and a gallon of methanol is WAYYYYYY more expensive than gas. I have to ask where you are getting your facts,

Cheapest I could find, was $61 for 5 gallons. VP Racing fuel

 

Not exactly….the 91 octane I referred to is equivalent to 95 RON. In other words the Jaguar engines are set up for “standard” premium, which in Canada and the US is 91 octane. No need for 93 or 94 octane (the highest commercially generally available here). That said, the engines will also run fine on 87 octane, which here is known as “regular” because the engine’s electronics compensate.

So to clarify, I was not suggesting that in RON countries anything less than 95 should be used in Jaguar engines.

 

All of what you say is correct. If you read every thing I’ve said, my Flex fuel F150 costs me about $25 less when I fill it up with E85 instead of 87 octane. E10
Adjusting for the 2 mpg less I get with E85 I’m still almost $20 ahead of just regular.
but it also makes more power. My butt dyno says 50 horsepower. But it’s actually not supposed to make much more than 10% more. So 38.5 more hp.
Now that sounds like it’s in direct conflict with your correct statement about less energy density.
Energy density and power are not the same thing.
Look at the alcohol chain and compare it with the gasoline chain. See the extra Oxygen molecules? In a given intake charge the one with the most oxygen will burn the most fuel. More fuel burnt equals more power made. Ethaanol burns cooler and slower than gasoline. Now do you understand why ethanol adds 10% to power over gasoline?

I am a tuner ( racers have to be) In the race car I use the same formula I was taught about advancing timing.
I keep advancing until I am not gaining more horsepower then I return to my previous setting.
I’ll pull it back another degree or two for endurance races. Plus I will fatten up the fuel mixture going from 9.8-1 to 9.3-1 Ethanol is extremely tolerant of too lean or too rich fuel mixtures. So those changes will cost me less than 5 hp.
With gasoline 14.7 -1 is max lean and 13.7 -1 is normal.