This is twisting my simple lizard brain like a pretzel..

I keep reading about the car "saving" people from catastrophe..

I feel like my car doesn't ever let me get near sketchy when *anything* is on.

From snow-norm-trac (all in dynamic) there is a subtle shift in how far I car get the rear end out, but it's really not that far. The nanny kicks in *well* before I even start to worry. And when it does, it's not a subtle power/brake move, it basically kills the throttle. It's fairly annoying and not "saving" anything.

Do the AWDs "nanny" better/less? Is the RWD maybe more aggressive when it comes to attitude control? I could understand that given how much more traction the AWD has..

Ironically, it's the opposite with the TCS. As long as you keep it in a straight line you can spin the tires , even in snow mode, no problem.

 

I have awd R, and haven't pushed it to test limits yet. I did own a rwd XF SC (470 hp V8). I had situation when rounding an off ramp curve in wet conditions ang giving the car some heavy throttle. The rear end gave way and started to come around. The nannies were too slow to prevent me from ending up a half a lane over from where I started. I did a steering wheel counter move to correct, but I felt the nannies were slow. Not sure how this relates to rwd f type. Are you talking about straight line rear end kick out under heavy throttle or in turns or both? My awd R doesn't allow much deviation under heavy throttle. If the back end starts to move, the nannies seem to kick in very quickly under normal conditions. Excitement may come in dsc off mode. The more experienced thrill seekers should be weighing in shortly. I'd like to try to push my car somewhere where I won't put it in a ditch or telephone pole.

 

My experience is that my15 rwd R allows me to earlier get on the power going out of a turn (with some rear movement and tire spin), than what the 16 awd R that I tested on a track would let me.


Especially in dynamic and sport but with ESC fully on, the awd "nanny" would hold back on the power frustratingly long when pushed out of corners. My rwd gives me more room to play with the throttle/power, and when it does interfere it does so rather smothly.


But I guess it is also depending on how you drive/what sort of situation that occurs. If the rear steps out rather suddenly I would think the "nanny" will react more quickly than what it does when you are at (or close to) the limit going through a curve and gently pushes a little harder on your way out trying to keep it on that limit (which is how I usually drive at the track).

 

ps: remember that the ESC is trying to prevent you from doing something "stupid" (like crasching / loosing control). When a situation occurs it will try to figure out where you are going / what you want the car to do - and help you to achieve that without loosing control.


If you make sudden (and large) changes in your input to the car (steering, brakeing, throttle input) in a situation where the ESC engages, you will "confuse" the ESC and make it difficult for the ESC to react "correct". You and the ESC will not be "in sync" - if that makes any sense?


This is specially valid when driving in very slippery conditions (like snow and ice), but also if you try to drive with some drifting in dry conditions.


Thats why it might be best to turn ESC completely off, if thats your aim. But I would not reccomend it on other places than a closed track.....

 

RWD: I find under full DSC, the nannies kick in about the same time I would react. For the first few months I thought I was able to react more quickly than the DSC at the limits, but subsequent testing by letting it do its own thing, I found it's almost as fast and capable as I am. However, I am not a 2 wheel drifter. I prefer to have all 4 at the limits through the turn. For straight-away acceleration, I can do better than the full DSC, but TracDSC does not hinder progress, so I usually go with that mode when I'm pushing the car hard.

 

I have both AWD R AND a V8 S/C XF (2015). I can attest that the "nannies" work perfectly. Simple proof: I am still alive, and I drive like a complete dick! I even manage to get the F Type's *** out...with the "nannies" ON...in freaking dry San Diego!


Downside is, since the "nannies" use the brakes to keep you in check, the rears in my XF were gone in around 10 months. Also, XF's rear tires are well, quiet worn out.


I rarely, if ever turn traction control off, or even put it in the DSC Trac setting. The kind of sideways fun both XF V8 S/C and the F Type R AWD allow me to have without creating Jaguar-shaped holes in walls is pretty amazing still.


P.S. XF's behavior is completely different not only because of RWD, but also due to the fact that it is a heavier, much softly sprung car. Weight transfer takes a while and the body lean is more pronounced. Much more pronounced.

 

Interesting thread. I typically drive with DSC fully on and don't find it too intrusive. On my last two cars a M3, and a C63 coupe the traction control was much more intrusive. In those cars I almost always drove with the Traction Control partially disabled. Sorry for the partial thread jack.

 

Great replies, thank you!

I guess I'm a knucklehead, because I didn't really think we'd be so different in our perceptions of the DSC. That in itself is neat.

For me, I feel like the DSC has some type of hard limit when the back end steps out, depending on what mode you are in. And it feels like it kicks in early.

For example, there are a few spots close to home that are safe (at certain times) to have fun at. One is a cloverleaf onramp.

With everything off, I can get the back end out and then feather the throttle all the way up the ramp. As it straightens out, I feather down, the car tracks on the front tires, I hammer it back down again, the car is stepped out just a touch and I'm good.

With DSCTrac, I get about 1/3 into it before I get nannied. Just as I'm about to start feathering the throttle, the nanny kicks in, the throttle goes away (brakes come on?) and the back end hooks up. It's not an easy reduction of throttle. It's that *yank* of letting off the gas when the car straightens out without throttle. Ugh..

Does anyone know how the DSC makes its decisions and what it actually does to correct? It feels like a 1-0 descion to me. On/off throttle. Other cars have a system where I can feel the individual brakes and throttle working to keep the car at "safe" attitude, but still allow the hooligan out.

Hope I'm making sense?

Thanks!

Mike

 

Thanks Arne,

I like it keeping me from doing stupid things.

I wonder if the DSC feels like the back end is moving too fast.. or I'm too slow on the counter steer.. and that's what is causing it... I.e. I'm a much worse driver than I think and the DSC knows it. . Lol...

 

Or it might be that the DSC thinks you are a worse driver than you are, and tries to overcompensate to your inputs

I don't think that the DSC is smart enough to learn from the different driving styles of different drivers, so it will react the dame way as it is programed to do - which will fit some drivers fine, but others not.

I have been to several winter driving courses (on frozen lakes) with different cars (both awd and rwd, but not the F-type unfortunately), and it is rather difficult to learn how to make the best out of different DSC systems if the goal is to try to work together with the system, and not having the system work against you.

It also depend what the "goal" is. Fastest lap time, safest driving or most fun. The last goal is usually only reached when DSC is turned fully off.

So far I have found that the DSC works well for me fully on when on regular roads, and at track-DSC when on track, as I don't push so hard that I feel the nanny intrudes too much and abrupt. It would have been interesting to try it out in real winter conditions, but I don't have winter tires and for me this is a "summer car".

Thinking back I did have a "situation" when I felt the nanny kick in rather abrupt. I was in a tunnel and stept a bit too hard and quick on the throttle (to make some sound...) without realizing that traction was not too good and we were not going completely straight. The rear stepped out surpricingly quick, and the nanny reacted quicker than I did. I would probably have saved it without the nanny, but I was non the less glad "she" was there to help in that kind of "non planned" skidding

 

Thanks Unhinged,

It may be a perception issue for sure.

I ran her through the canyons this weekend and left DSCTrac on for the whole trip. In that situation, I never felt like the car limited me. I'm pretty cautious when there's a mountain on one side and a canyons on the other though.

 

I'm old and wear a tinfoil hat: ergo I drive with the DSC fully off at all times unless I get caught in a sudden shower...... still alive (so far!) LOL

Dave

 

I have a 2015 RWD R. I can't imagine anyone turning off the DSC especially with the OEM P Zeros. The car was simply dangerous with the P zeros in any temperature under 50 degrees or in the wet. After I replaced them with the MPSS, the car was transformed, but I would still not turn off the DSC on a public road. Save it for the track. No room for error. You wind up in a tree or a telephone pole, it's game over....you can die. Just not worth it.

I find the DSC tuned well to keep the car from swapping ends in most situations: however if the car loses lateral traction without any application of throttle...like sliding sideways on all 4 tires on ice...it's too slow and ineffective.

I was in the pouring rain a year ago, and I did a downshift at 55 mph from 6th gear to 4th gear, the rear came around on me and I was staring head on at a divider on a crowded highway. Luckily, all of the performance driving schools I attended actually have made me a better driver, so I corrected the car by gently coming off the throttle and minimally correcting the wheel rocking the rear right and left and right and left like a pendulum. Scary stuff, and I am thankful for God's protection. The DSC was nonexistent because all 4 wheels were sliding at 50 mph. This was not a hydroplane, but rather a lateral loss of transaction on all 4 wheels.

Jaguar made the decision to not bring a RWD R to the the U.S. after 2015. With the P zeros, the car was just too dangerous because it could bite you in normal situations without the driver even pushing the car. The MPSS make the car much more stable and with these tires, I think they can bring the RWD back to the US.

Everybody be careful out there. We have a nice fraternity of car enthusiasts and do not need any tragedies.

 

Back in the day we used to drive 400 and 500hp cars with drum brakes, no sway bars, F70-15 tires, no airbags and certainly no hint of any computer interference......still alive today. :-) It's all what you are used to and obviously you need to use your head but an F type with DCS off still has far more traction than at least a dozen cars I've owned.....even with the P Zeros. All that said I look forward to replacing my tires with the Michelins when these ones are done.

Cheers,
Dave

 

Just another comment - it's usually not the 550 hp that might get you in trouble. It's the 680 Nm of torque

 

I am more and more convinced on the RWD and on the good sides of it for the weather in my country, weight and the extra fun that offers, why not also the extra challenge...

https://www.google.it/amp/jalopnik.c...1671708207/amp

 

RWD V8S and I can confirm that driving without traction control is definitely something I don't recommend. I have done Ferrari challenge racing been go karting since I was 7 and the f type def gives no warning when it's about to give on the stock p zeros. Being a man I did the vap tune and after a few 100 miles reverted back to the svr tune. The vap tune you just couldn't​ push the car the way it was ment to be pushed. Every corner you could feel the car going light and suspension rising. With the svr tune i can get a little bit more corner speed and have more confidence in the car behaving the way I expect it to behave, this is still with nannies on. Taking the nannies off would only be recommend on a track, where if you do loose control all you leave with is some scratches, hurt ego, and some ripped up grass or gravel. The car is an animal but has a lot of old school roadster traits imho. But to each there own; I am by no means a great driver so in the hands of someone more experienced and just a better driver the car maybe completely tamable.

 

Depends what you're used to; I used to collect musclecars and owned many 400 - 500hp RWD cars with zero electronic aids, usually running on bias ply or very small tires (My 442 W30 had 245/60/14's and my 440-6 Superbee had F60/15's). Obviously you do have to be smart about it and danger is a miscalculation away if you push it hard without the electronic aids......which I'd never do when there is a danger to others.

When I first got my car, It would run out of steam at the top of first gear and I thought it was hitting the rev limiter......then I realized it was just the traction control cutting the power right off......it felt very weird to me and completely unwelcome so now I run primarily with the traction control completely off or at least in Track DCS. I do agree that anyone not used to high HP cars shouldn't be driving with the DCS off; in fact that's one nice thing I DO like: I feel totally comfortable letting my wife drive the car which certainly was not the case with my older cars.


....maybe I'm just old.


Cheers,
Dave

 

I have a 2016 AWD F Type R and run it in summer and winter. I pretty much always turn of nannies, and find that the AWD is VERY capable. As an ex rally driver with Subarus, Mitsus (Evo X) Audis all in AWD, I would say that this car is middle ground for stability. Difference is with 550 HP, you can drop the pedal and break free pretty much at will, but if you don't drive like an A-Hat, it is quite tamable and predictable.

Also, I've had lots of performance tires over the years doing Autocross, and I honestly don't find the P-Zeros bad. Not sure what all the hate is about, but I find it breaks away with warning and gradually. Again, not smashing pedals around, but when I want a bit of a slide, not much guesswork goes into how much is needed to make it happen. MPS tires have more grip FOR SURE, but the Zeroes are not that bad....

Just my .02.

P.S. Those of you that have AWD should really winter drive these cars... It is SO MUCH FUN!