Hi All,

Our shop has been working on a few cooling system projects for a number of cars that we are building for customers as well as two of our own in house projects. We have been working on perfecting our radiator design using high flow, high efficiency, multi row (2 and 3) aluminum cores with TIG welded formed sheet metal end tanks.

After working on one of our customers' XKR, we noticed that the radiator in that car had a massive frontal area but only a 1" thick core, which in our experience on a lightly modified car worked quite well with no cooling issues. But that got us to wondering - which Jaguar models and engine configurations are plagued with cooling issues? And in these models, what are the conventional solutions? We have a nice stack of various radiator cores here that we sourced for prototyping and we are looking forward to getting some onto Jaguars as well as the other vehicles we have been working on (Nissan, BMW, Alfa Romeo & Fiat so far).

Thanks again for the info, I'm looking forward to hearing more about the cooling systems in the XJS and XJ6's as well.

Jason

 

I havn't heard of to many of these cars having cooling issues. If you look around this forum, there are more questions than answers when it comes to performance. Several of the R guys have been trying to get upgraded heat exchangers, supercharger pumps and exhaust work. The price is usually way to high for the outcome.

 

I'm with Drew. When you think Jaguar, heat issues do not come to mind. I did a few Jag 6 to V8 conversions, back in the day, and the Jag original radiator worked just fine, which indicates some over capacity designed in.

 

What???
WOW Jason, what a coincidence!!! I was looking like crazy today on getting somebody to make me a 2 row radiator... I just like you think that if you going to be pushing the car (as I always do), soon or later having the biggest/best radiator in there would be the best thing!!
I did contacted few people... I would love to buy one from you. My rad is out for the time being. If you wanted it, I can ship it out to you? That way you have a real close up on one of these (2003 S type R).

Let me know? I’m very excited to know that someone had this very same idea! One row rad (only an inch thick), just doesn’t cut it for me.

What did strike me the most was to see that there is “plenty” of room in the radiator’s tanks to make them from factory with 2 rows without issues, what so ever… It amazes me to see that there is only one (1inch) row in there… With the proper Tooling should be a breeze to just add the second row… No need to go as far as making the whole thing from scratch, tanks and all, in aluminum. Sure it can be done, but that might required a lot more time. You can start by modifying few used ones; then sale those and ask the costumers for their core and there you go, keep them coming… Just add the second row and viola!!!
JG

 

If we were to go to the extent of selling upgraded radiators we would just produce a full replacement rather than dealing with the hassle of cores, etc. And based on the method of manufacturing, it would be nearly impossible to just add a core to the existing radiator assembly. Core channels and headers are designed to be soldered together once. While it's pretty common on brass radiators to re-core the radiator, it's not common to 'rebuild' a core as you're suggesting to add another core to the preexisting headers.

Here's a quick rundown off 'how it's made' showing how brass radiators are made: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayQWXlRDW_c The process on aluminum radiators is similar, but with different compounds being used during the solder process and different materials being used for the header, fins and tubes.

From what I've seen on the XKR radiator, the small core is centered on the headers to allow space for the fan array between the radiator face and the engine. What we would probably do is have a standard core made in aluminum and build the tanks in a fashion that offsets the core forward relative to the tanks so as to have a factory fit design where the tanks and the fan array are concerned, and kicking an extra set of core rows out forward from the factory core location.

Speaking of cores (another kind of cores), we really do our best to avoid core charges and making products that require factory cores. The babysitting and handling times for products which require a core can offset any savings from using the cores depending on the product in question.

That being said, I still think we can produce a high quality, reasonably priced radiator for the XKR, XJR and StypeR, among other vehicles. I sent you a PM regarding your radiator, btw...

Jason

 

Jason you have a new PM...

 

@Nameless, You need to take the full radiator pack into consideration, starting with the SC then Airco and then the engine one. increasing these in thickness will overall decrease airflow (for all 3 radiators!), and the airflow is so important.

Thanks to the "massive frontal area" the system is working pretty well for street use, however for those that want to decrease the hp losses due to heat buildup in the intercooler system, could benefit from a similar "massive frontal area" intercooler radiator, but I would make it 1" to max 1.5" thick.

Mine is now 2" (largest frontal area possible), so anyone that believes a thicker core is better and is looking for one, I am more than happy to sell mine (seriously), so I can make a 1" one.

 

Avos,

Very true on the overall thickness of the assembly. Our design for the front mount heat exchanger used 1.5", maximum frontal area, and it works quite well. Did you run a multipass on your design?

My interest in the cooling system histories of these vehicles was just to get an idea if there was a market that we should be investigating.

J

 

Hi Jason,

Am glad we think the same ;-), it would be great if you can make a good intercooler radiator alternative.

Initially I wanted a dual pass, as that would make better use of the full frontal area. But it would also increases drag, so if you go that route, than better to use a pump with a higher head.

My experience so far is that there is some good reserve with the main radiator, but I don't race my car, and maybe the climate im my area is helping also a bit.

Andre.

 

Andre, thanks for the kind words. Tonight we are starting work on a heat exchanger test cell that we will be using to validate designs of liquid to air intercooling systems as well as designs of radiators.

We're starting with the front mount heat exchanger for the XKR/XJR and will be testing a single pass tube and fin twin row radiator (about 40mm thick) vs. our original design of a similarly sized triple pass bar and plate design. The bar and plate is not laid out with the aspect ratio normally used for water to air designs, rather it is an air to air core, with larger passages to allow similar flow across a three pass design. We'll see what the results and numbers say and I'm not willing to place any bets for or against one or the other.

We will have the tube and fin cores in within the next three weeks for evaluation.

Talk to you all soon!

Jason

 

I am still waiting patiently for your optimized intercooler.

 

I can build you one today. We are going to be testing two designs in the next few weeks and choosing whichever works better, but if they're similar we may offer the triple pass or the single pass at two different prices (not a huge difference). It's just that the triple pass looks pretty savage behind the grille in giant bar and plate form instead of the standard tube and fin style radiator.

That being said, our triple pass has been successfully campaigned by one of our customers in a XJR race car that sees track days pretty regularly. He put the smack down on a Godzilla Nissan GT-R at Summit Point the weekend he got the front mount and our downpipes on his car. That's saying a whole heck of a lot for his driving abilities in the big saloon...but I have to admit, GT-R or no, seeing an XJR powering around a corner in hot pursuit would probably make me lose a little bit of my nerve as well!!

The front mount heat exchanger intercooling upgrade will retail at $749 and I will be offering up a 10% discount for forum members and we'll do free shipping or something like that for the first five people who buy them. So if you want to wait a few weeks, you can or we can build out one of the triple pass bar and plate units we have in stock now. My guess is that the triple pass will cool better, but it weighs a more also.

You can see the triple pass design below in our preliminary computational flow dynamics plot. The color designates fluid velocity, indicating restrictions in the system. The route of the bands indicates the flow of a given percentage of the overall fluid passing down the path indicated. If we had the $16,000 professional version of this add-in for our CAD system, we could evaluate some more dynamic details and generate a larger number of bands to further illustrate the system. What our version gets us is the peace of mind that we have plenty of flow across the core through all three passes. Main restriction is the inlet/outlet, which on our design are opened up to have a 60% larger cross sectional area than stock by eliminating the draft angle that is part of the factory manufacturing process of using plastic end tanks.

The intercooler upgrade is available on the website, also, you know :

Nameless Performance Jaguar XKR Front Mount Intercooling Upgrade




Happy modding!

Jason

 

Jason- Thank you for this response. I am really pleased that you have made so much progress !!

Given that it is the middle of winter here, I can wait a few more weeks for your test results. I am looking forward to purchasing your best performer.

I was pleasantly surprised to see your XKR braided stainless brake hoses also. I think I'll grab a set of those too !

You guys are awesome.

 

Yeah we're working on getting one of the rear fittings adjusted a bit on the brake lines so they'll fit through the hole where they clip into the body. I have two optional fittings in the fedex right now that I'll be testing on Dan's XKR when we are pulling the rear suspension Saturday.

As for the heat exchanger, I'll keep you all posted on the development and results we find between the two core styles. Here's a shot of one of them on one of our customers' XJR track car:



I think that pretty much earns the car full-on Berserker status. We will also offer the heat exchanger in a black anodized finish.

Jason

 

That's nice you can also consider of such products for S Type R models considering we have a few members who owns those models .

 

We have been very interested in getting into the STR market for a while. Anybody who can help us by letting us check out their car and put a prototype together?

I PM'd two members in Seattle and Eugene but no replies yet. Any ideas how I might be able to find STR owners in this area?

J

 

Well, why not drop by S Type Forums to make your request ? You can also use Regional Forums if you like . I or other mod friends also would gladly be make it sticky to appear at the top of the page

 

Jason...Any updates on the intercooler testing?

 

What happened....? Theres no intercooler on your website for the Jaguars... Only the cats and those I have already bought

 

You could get them to make you a custom one. Probably be for around the same money too.