Hello folks -

I am looking for a MKII to replace the MKII I have, because the MKII I have is, well....very broken....and I bought THAT car to replace another MKII I used to have that was technically even more broken - only I fixed that one and sold it....confused yet?

I've found a MKII that meets virtually all of my criteria, and looks / runs very well. It has a few little issues, but I'd say its in that "local show" category - not winning awards from Concourse, but very presentable. I was basically all set to pull the trigger when I found out that the engine is not the original engine. It is an engine of proper size (3.8) and within the right year for the car, but while the car was built mid April '61, the engine would have been cast some 9 months later. In addition, the head of the current engine was itself replaced and records show that the replacement head needed "welding in the water jackets". The head job cost some $5,000, according to the receipt, and included new bearings, etc.

My questions are these: - What does the non matching engine mean in terms of value, or price? Personally, I never plan to go for points or show the car at any level, so originality is less critical, YET.....there is value in matching numbers, its one of the first things buyers ask...I did. I don't buy cars with the intent to sell, but, I DO buy them with the idea that I may need to some day, and I want to be sure I'm buying the car right, which is to say - within the fair range of their value, given condition. Is there a metric out there for non-matching numbers MKII? If it were you and you were buying this car from me, how would the non-matching engine impact your buying decision? Is it a 5% reduction versus a numbers matching car? more? none at all?

As to the welded head - is that common? I've seen a few posts, but not specifically for the MKII head.

Other than these concerns, the car is exactly what I am looking for - perhaps a different interior color eventually and I will need to do some restoration on the dashboard, but I am trying to not allow passions to override sound judgement!

Thanks,
Allan.

 

IMHO ~ I have a matching numbers car & was made a huge offer for it the minute I had finished the close to concours restoration. I restored it to enjoy. My family will sell it no doubt when I'm long gone. So there is some value to matching numbers. How much will be deal & country specific and the base value of the car. Look up the latest Hagerty value for a Mk2 in their 4 categories which are thoroughly explained. Far more important. Hagerty has sites in US$ & GBP.

https://www.hagerty.com/apps/valuationtools/search/auto

Otherwise it only matters to snotty concours judges.

Some welding to the head water jackets at the block mating surface is very common & nothing to worry about as long as it is professionally executed.

If it was an Aston Martin DB4 GT Zagato of which 25 were built then matching numbers would be far more critical than a Mk2.

EDIT ~ Also see JCNA Concours judging guide if it interests you. Draw your own conclusions.

http://www.jaguarmk2.info/files/mk2-...guide-2009.pdf

https://www.jcna.com/sites/default/f...f_Contents.pdf

 

The question should be: does it have a good engine? The rest is speculative baloney

 

I would not be over concerned if my car was matching number or not ~ I got lucky and yes I'm pleased by it. To me finding a totally rust free car was far more important. To each his own. There are some that see value in it.

When the stud on the document pouch must be Burgundy I think things are getting a little silly.

 

I think matching numbers is something potential buyers hear on car shows and think it is imperative but this only affects you getting a lot of points at Pebble Beach. It does not effect the smile on your face whilst driving it around town. As Jose has stated as long as it has a period engine of the same size, period gearbox of the correct type then the rest is personal preference. Does it affect the value possibly to the guy who thinks it is important but to another buyer it does not matter. Now having a Mk2 Jaguar with a Ford engine or an Automatic that has been change to a 5 speed manual then I would be bothered about valuations.

 

Rob, I only knew I had a matching numbers car after I had bought it. My main drivers were no body rust at all, decent, restorable interior & the car totally complete for as little money as possible because I knew I was going to do a complete restoration anyway. The car was not a runner & had been off the road for quite a while & garaged in our dry inland climate. When I asked the previous owner why it was off the road I was told the clutch did not work. I crawled underneath the vehicle and noticed a hole cut in the bell housing by a nibbling cutter. New bearings & synchro cones had been fitted to the gearbox & a new Borg & Beck clutch. Some clown had put washers between the pressure plate & the flywheel so the clutch mechanism operated but did not engage. And thus the car was towed home & stripped. The seller even threw in a new/another bell housing. I would be embarrassed to tell you how little I paid for the car by today's standards.

 

Thanks for the replies all -

@ Glyn M Ruck: Thanks for the links. Agree that a burgundy button is getting a tad picky.

@Jose: The engine has good compression and within 10% between lowest and highest value, oil pressure also seems good, but the car has basically no records whatsoever - I have no idea how many miles are on the engine, what work if any was done to it, why the old one was changed, etc. All I know of this engine is that it is from a MKII, and a 3.8, and has good compression - That's all. Mileage shown is of course irrelevant, even the head is from something different - presumably yet a another MKII.

@Cass3985: I agree in terms of the user experience, wont matter a bit. But if I pay full "hagerty #3" value for the car, does that value assume originality?

I guess I just need to decide if I care more about the car as a whole, or the fact that its not matching numbers, which will devalue the car to some.

 

Sorry. I thought you were in Aus. My mistake. Auburn, NSW vs WA
I would say that full Hagerty #3 value includes/assumes at least a degree of originality. I would request some discount on that. Lets see what Cass & others think.

Being an oilco man oil pressure is dependent on what viscosity oil is being used. Ask the seller what oil is in the engine. The magic 40 plus psi at 3000 RPM hot is only a loose guide. If you are serious ask the seller how many miles are on that oil & send a sample to Blackstone for analysis. It will give you a rough idea of engine condition. Ideally you need multiple samples to see a clear trend but it will give you some idea. I realise that is all that is practical in this situation.

 

I have a 1968 S Type and after I bought the car and stripped it down I realised the gearbox number was different to that on the VIN plate. Not that would have mattered to me as I paid less than I should have for the car. The gearbox was changed due to a catastrophic explosion of parts in the bell housing. The BW35 auto box had destroyed itself and the reason I know this is because during the strip down I found large holes that had been punched in to the gearbox tunnel from the gearbox shrapnel. You could not see the holes from inside the car as the carpets covered them. Must have scared the sh*t out of the previous owner when it let loose. The gear box was changed for another BW35 but it was only recently I learnt because of the lack of a second gear hold that the gearbox actually came from a Daimler V8250. Does this devalue the work that has been done to the car. No I don't think so. Same type of box, same era and if some snotty erk tried to knock the price down because the gearbox was not matching numbers I would tell him to get on his bike as the car was not for sale. Not to him anyway.

 

Well, its a mute point now anyway. I responded to the seller, who to this point had been very reasonable to work with, that the non-matching numbers was a disappointment, and that it changed my calculus on the car, and that I'd need to carefully consider if it was a good investment, but that I did appreciate his forthrightness and the opportunity to make a choice on a non-matching numbers car, as opposed to being hood-winked into one. Then I went about posting and researching to try get my head straight on how much it mattered. The seller (professional dealer, not a private party) however responded, essentially chastising me for not asking about numbers matching first thing, if it was so important...... It was the third thing I asked about.. anyway, I could tell he was irritated and the tone of the email didn't sit well with me, so thats-that. Jaguar made 80,000+ MKII cars, my guess is there will be another one.

 

From a JCNA concours point of view, engine numbers are not looked at. If the head is the correct type for that engine (in this case a B Type head) that's all that matters. Of course, condition and cleanliness matter, but that's true for the entire car.

 

Yes ~ JCNA ties everything back to VIN from a judging perspective which is why I posted. The most I've seen them check is head chaincase engine number to the Data Plate. Probably because 2 cars were very close.

Certainly never seen a judge crawl under a car to check the gearbox number. That sort of inspection only seems to take place at snooty multi brand events & is done before concours main judging day.

 

this is an old thread.. but came up in my email today.. matching numbers..basically bull dookie for the terminally **** ..the number of 'matching numbers' cars at those phony 'show auctions' that are bogus is polific..if people want matching numbers on a car built out of mismatched parts..Most restorers will oblige.. .... (1) Is the cars structure sound, orginal, accident and corrosion free ?..(2) is the interior nice with all its 'original' type meterials ( i.e. high quality leather and NOT vinyl in pre '66 cars) ? (3) mechanical :- does it run properly, show good oil pressure and stay cool on a hot day in traffic ? does the transmission shift as its should ? any upgrades added ? things such as 4 pot front calipers increase driving quality..as does a stiffer front sway bar...a modern 5 speed conversion ( or later post '65 'full synchro' trans help improve the driving characteristics.. a straight port head (as per UK market 240/340) and 2" carbs is a welcome upgrade to those who own the cars to enjoy driving them.. as are cooling system upgrades.. an 'early' mk 2 (pre sept '65) os nowhere near as a competent a car as the later cars had the evolutionary factory improvements.. there is a good reason that retailers in Uk such as 'Coombs' of Guildford used to modify the cars when new to improve attraction to buyers and hence 'salability'... a genuine 'Combs' mk 2 carries a premium price today.. note that on later cars with the straight port cylinder head, those heads were usually NOT numbed.. ask yourself this :- whats better.. a car with a non matching upgraded cylinder head.. or one with a worn and corroded 'matching numbers' head ? (BTW.. For comparison in the 'economy' version, try an early 2.4 and then compare to a '240'...( the original 2.4 just does not cut it comparison.. a 240 is a GREAT car to drive) RE :- welding up corroded water ports.. common practice.. and if done properly, often better than new.. but its also sign that the car has not been properly cared for or has been neglected..(that would be 80% of them) also for value for money the US market '340' remains something of a 'bargain'.. its NOT a genie 340 with the upgraded engine,trans and steering.. but a rebadged 'base' 3.4 mk2 with power steering as std .. cheapo interior meterials and straight gain veneer.the upside is the 'Ambala' seat coaching outlast leather by long shot..and the cars are priced accordingly..

 

Actually the so called straight grain veneer in my 340 is quite figured and pretty.

 

reply to JffR1:- some of the US market '340' had burr veneer.. Jaguar often used what they had on hand to keep production on track.. the strike in '66 really damaged the company and they tried to produce a many cars as possible as soon the situation was resolved..

 

Many S Types including mine had straight grain walnut (not cut from the burl) and I like it. Slightly more modern looking. I had a full set of heavy burl veneered wood & decided against fitting it. At least in my car all the wood matches (including solid) unlike some I've seen.

 

I've seen quite a bit of variation in the wood in MKII cars - I've been sort of obsessed for a few years - at least 10 - in finding wood for these cars, because both my MKIIs that I had needed either a full or partial replacement set, and I frankly didn't have the $$$ to get them professionally redone. As such, I scoured eBay in various countries, went to shows, swap-meets, etc and while "burl" is certainly common, I also found lots of "flamed" wood - probably just less burled - burl, and of course I found heavily figured burl wood, but also straight grain and in some cases, even wood that seemed to transition between the two. Wood is of course a natural inconsistent thing, and I can only imagine the factory got multiple "lots" of veneer - with a mix of really, really nice burl, and some "lesser" burl, along with wood that looked more flamed than burl and so on....and....I bet they had to use it all regardless, it was a business after all. I also think that much of the restored burl we see that looks so great, isn't original, its probably even better burl wood than the jaguar factory ever had....assuming jaguar even made their own dashboards.

 

Yes ~ the re-veneering jobs I've seen by British Autowood in Florida, that many consider the gold standard are better than original.










This road test car was probably carefully selected & the radio/ashtray panel does not match. Brochure shots are clearly airbrushed.

 

I know Saul Chaplin, the owner of British Autowood. Superb guy from Wales UK. He owns a 420 and a 340 in pristine condition. Previously owned S and E types. His shop is something out of old world Roman craftmanship, with a fire-oven where the dash finish is baked like a pizza and when finished looks like glass.

 

He does a wonderful job Jose. Madeira Concepts also do a good job but Saul is better IMHO. I like the fact that he bakes them. I had to leave mine in the sun for 6 months prior to final coats & polishing otherwise you suffer some sinkage into the soft grain.

I don't like Derrington Steering wheels but I love this custom Derrington he did with custom Hornpush.