Well I collected my S-Type last week and was thrilled with it; other than the funky smell of what now looks to be A/C fluid bleeding out of the system.

Since then I've identified:
- Offside passenger door lock is broken
- Locking wheel nut and wrench are missing (was an afterthought)
- The spare although looking ok from the top is worn to the canvas on the inside (found out whilst checking for the locking wheel nut key)
- Is bleeding coolant somewhere, I believe the expansion tank is cracked as it always retains a specific level after filling (about 3 inches lower than the line)
...a few other odds and sods

The car was sold to me with an advertised 66,000 miles, when I got there it said 59,000 on the speedo. I found a nice note in the Radio handbook when I got home noting the car had a speedo change at "approx" 17,000 so the car is nearer 78,000.

The car drives beautifully but I've lost all faith in it; not something I can deal with as I commute 80 miles a day. Just sent notice to the garage that I want to return the car (under the Sales of Goods Act amended) so we'll see what happens. The consumer direct people make it sound so straight forward; if not it's off to small claims. Hopefully all will go well, the owner seemed genuinely shocked about the mileage (not so about some of the faults).

Fingers crossed! Until it's all sorted she's staying on the drive. Thankfully the wife is on leave this week so I can pinch her car. If we role beyond I've got a cheap banger lined up for a while as I want to avoid hiring.

Will I replace her with another Jag? I'm not convinced currently.

Humph

 

Whoa, a "note inside the glove saying the speedo has been changed"? What the hell kind of note is this? Furthermore, it is illegal and I would IMMEDIATELY return the vehicle just on this fact alone. They are screwed if they want to fight with you. You dont deserve this and I hope you stick it to them.

Do you have a "lemon law' where you are at? I believe this BS Speedo issue and all the problems the vehicle has already shown falls WELL within the lemon law catagory as well as being borderline criminal for turning a speedo back.

 

Bull,

The odometer laws are somewhat different in the UK. And no lemon law as we know it here in the U.S. would apply on an 11-year-old vehicle....

 

Sorry for the misinformation I gave, i guess I am just used to a just and fair consumer law (lemon laws) set forth by the Commonwealth that has no bearing on the age of the vehicle and STRONGLY prohibits turning odometer back. That is a criminal offense and immediate grounds for a lawsuit:

"The Used Vehicle Warranty Law protects consumers who buy used vehicles from a dealer or private party in Massachusetts. (M.G.L. c. 90 §7N 1/4) The law requires dealers to provide consumers with a written warranty against defects that impair the vehicle’s use or safety, and requires private parties to disclose any known use or safety defects.
The Used Vehicle Warranty Law provides you with protections and remedies, including mandatory repairs, refunds, or repurchases. It does not cover all vehicles or all defects, and not all problems will qualify your vehicle for repurchase.
If you purchased a vehicle fewer than 14 days ago, the fastest way to get relief may be through the "Lemon Aid Law ."
Vehicles Covered:



The law applies to used cars, vans, trucks and demonstration vehicles not covered by the New Car Lemon Law, and which:

• are sold by a Massachusetts dealer or private party,
• cost at least $700 (dealer sales only),
• have fewer than 125,000 miles on the odometer when sold (dealer sales only).

Demonstration or executive vehicles are covered under the law under certain circumstances. You must first determine whether the vehicle meets the requirements of the New Car Lemon Law. You may use the Used Vehicle Warranty Law only if you do not qualify to be accepted for the New Car Lemon Law.

Dealer Warranty: Anyone who sells four or more vehicles in a one-year period is a dealer under the Used Vehicle Warranty Law. Dealer warranties cannot be waived under any circumstances. The dealer must give you a signed, dated, correct copy of the limited used vehicle warranty at the time you purchase the vehicle. The warranty requires the dealer to repair any defect that impairs the vehicle’s use or safety.
Warranty Length: The coverage depends on the mileage of the vehicle at the time of purchase as outlined below:
MileageWarranty Period
Less than 40,000 miles - 90 days or 3,750 miles, whichever comes first
40,000 to 79,999 miles - 60 days or 2,500 miles, whichever comes first
80,000 to 124,999 miles - 30 days or 1,250 miles, whichever comes first
125,000 miles or over No express warranty
If the true mileage of the vehicle is unknown at the time of the sale, the warranty period is calculated according to the age of the vehicle as outlined below:
Age of VehicleWarranty Period
3 years old or less90 days or 3,750 miles, whichever comes first
More than 3 and less than 6 years old - 60 days or 2,500 miles, whichever comes first
More than 6 years old 30 days or 1,250 miles. whichever comes first
Warranty Extension: Your warranty is extended by one day for each day the vehicle is out of service for repairs, and by one mile for each mile it is driven while repairs are being made. In addition, any repair performed on a covered defect during the warranty period carries its own 30-day warranty. This warranty begins the day the repair is completed and can continue after the original warranty on the car as a whole expires. See the Consumer Affairs Warranty Extension Reference Chart if you need more information on these tolling and extension provisions (in Adobe Acrobat format).
Dealer Fails to Provide Correct Warranty: If the dealer does not give you a warranty or gives you one that is incomplete or inaccurate, you are still entitled to warranty repairs. Your warranty, however, will not begin to expire until the dealer gives you a complete, accurate copy of the warranty.

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY:

"
Odometer Law: This law prohibits both dealers and private party sellers from turning back or readjusting the odometer or mileage indicated on any automobile offered for sale. If you can prove that the seller reset the odometer, you can sue for $1500 or three times the amount of your damages, whichever is greater, along with court costs and attorney fees. Odometer tampering is also a criminal offense."



Maybe our friends accross the pond as well as other states should take some notes from Massachusetts. I, for one, had to use this law to get my throttle body and parking module replaced. Massachusetts law is terrible in alot of areas but this makes purchasing a vehicle both from the dealer and private party alot safer.

 

Hmmmm, sorry to hear that Stav
Was it an independant dealer you bought the car from? Please advise...

In any case you deffo have some grounds to if not return the car ask them to repair the faults, although by the sounds of it you just want out of the deal!
The sale of goods act may help here / may not....at the very least I'd say they should be looking to put right all of the faults mentioned.

Please keep us updated

 

As long as you act quickly our consumer rights (in theory) cover us for this. If you buy privately the seller has no legal obligation to tell you the truth (in basic terms).

However dealers do. Advertising the vehicle as having mileage x and it has mileage y is from what I gather a criminal offence. Therefore you're right, they should take the vehicle back without question and I'm entitled to my money back in full. I've made this request verbally, by email and formal letter today so we'll hear what they say.

If you act quickly enough you're also covered for the types of fault I've noted also; it's a shady area but not too complicated. Essentially if you have any problems with the car after purchase you need to evaluate if they're reasonable for the age of the vehicle (wear and tear). Selling an un-roadworthy vehicle is against the law. The dealer is also obliged to point out any points with the vehicle when it's sold.

It's a sticky area for sellers this; they either have to risk (and hope) that you take the car and don't notice the problems for a while. If they pop up instantly they either have to fix them if they're 'unreasonable' but will also have to talk their way out of the vehicle not being checked thoroughly.

Thankfully any warranty restrictions are in addition to ones statutory rights.

 

I'm sorry but I am FLOORED by the fact that someone can set back an odometer and leave an little freaking love note in the glove box saying this. Amazing. On top of it, the dealer doesnt even have to disclose this!? What kind of rinky dink, JV car sales operation you got going on over there? Jeysus, I wonder what the rights of homebuyers are if this process is so screwed up.

(as you can see i am pissed, but I am pissed FOR Humph)

EDIT: Wrote this before I saw Stav_98's last post.

 

Was you're usual independent trader not specialising in any specific make/model. After chatting to consumer direct and having a good google I'm entitled to a full refund purely on the basis of the mileage.

He has been jolly nice in all honesty, offered to fix most of the issues noticed. Problem is I've lost all confidence in him and the car and therefore want out. I arranged my own warranty which is now invalidated due to the increase in mileage (thankfully I can get a full refund on that). Potentially changes servicing, reliability on a 80,000 mile car can be assumed to not be as good as 60,000 mile car. Also it'll be a pain to sell on.

 

Wow I'm amazed at that... and there is NO exemption under which a car can be sold "as-is". Now, do these warranty periods apply to private parties in MA?

Or can a private party sell the car as is where is. Also I think this could get sticky with the "known" aspect. I sold a car, i didn't know it needed a,b,c. I'm not a mechanic. Plus you have to prove the actual seller tampered with the odometer... That's the difficult part.

Here in NJ there is no mandatory warranty on a used car sale. My uncle used to own a used car lot, and I used to hang out there when I was a kid / early teen and I heard him on more than one occasion explain to customers when I was a kid, that all my cars are "as is" as in if you buy it, pull out of here and at the first traffic light it breaks in half, you own both halves. What you see what is what you get.

George

 

Hi,

I don't believe for a moment the seller was aware. This was don't within a couple years of the vehicles registration (circa 2nd service), 9 years or so ago. However the note which I would assume was originally in the service book had been moved to the Radio Manual (where else would one look!). Again I don't feel it was this seller. I think he bought the lemon and unknowingly sold to me as it was; I can't image he'd risk his reputation.

Sorry should have made this clearer above.

 

Warranty periods do apply to Private party sales as well: No matter the year or miliage you basically have a 30 day warranty. They do not have the right to repair the vehicle, as the dealer does, they have to give you a straight up refund. The dealer, however, has 3 shots at repairing the defect, the private party needs to refund the money and cancel the transaction.

Private Party Sales:

The Used Vehicle Warranty Law applies differently to a vehicle purchased from a private party than it does if purchased from a dealer. Under the law, a dealer is anyone who sells four or more vehicles in a 12 month period.
The Used Vehicle Warranty Law requires private party sellers to inform buyers about any and all known defects which impair the safety or substantially impair the use of the vehicle. The law applies to all private party sales regardless of sales price or mileage. If you discover a defect that impairs the vehicle’s safety or substantially impairs the use, and can prove that the seller knew about the defect but failed to disclose it, you may cancel the sale within thirty days of purchase. The seller must refund the amount you paid for the vehicle, less 15 cents per mile of use.
Private parties are also bound by the Lemon Aid Law.

 

Serious advice here, Stav 98. 1st., you really shouldn't have bought a '99 S-type, BUT, as you appear to be in the UK, you have a case for getting your money back, IF you bought it from a trader. It all revolves around the displayed mileage. Disregard any well-meaning advice from other countries, as it won't apply in UK.
Basically, it concerns a trader selling a car with an altered mileage, and whether he brought this to your attention and can prove this. Amazingly, it is NOT an offence to alter the mileage on your car, but it most certainly IS an offence for a motor trader to sell the car with an altered mileage. It's called misrepresentation, and the courts have a long history of dealing with this offence. BUT, you need to be able to prove this. Make sure you have hard-copy of all adverts, the paperwork you found on the car etc., and best of all, testimony of the previous owner, and evidence from MOT. So what's the best way to handle this? Read on...
You have to face your trader, on his own with no witnesses and state quite clearly you want your money back in return for the car. Don't shout, don't lose your temper, talk calmly as a businessman would. If you think you can't do this, get a friend or someone who can. Failing this, get a solicitor/lawyer to send a letter (cost £50 to £100) if you can't resolve verbally. Make it clear one way or another you know the law (you can bet your **** HE does). If he seems to be 'cracking'. clinch it by offering quite seriously that nothing more will be said or done as soon as you've banked his cheque. You will forget the matter altogether. It worked for me once.
Best of luck with this one, I'll be crossing my fingers for you.
Finally, I don't believe the mileages you've quoted for the car. Speedo been changed? -- Bollocks. It wouldn't surprize me if this motor has done more like 200,000 miles, after all it's 11 years old. If it really had done 60,000miles in 11 years that's less than 6000miles/year. Cobblers!
Leedsman.

 

I interpret this as the original speedometer was found to be faulty at 17K miles and replaced with a new one, not someone trying to pull a fast one by resetting the odo. There's nothing illegal in doing that.

The other 'faults' with the car sound quite minor given that it's 11 years old............

 

Oh so i guess odometers just flat out fail and die at 17k miles, hard to believe man. I would like to see this "note", can you scan and post it on here? Seeing as it would have been under warranty then, this "note" should actually be an invoice from the dealership detailing work done and parts replaced. I would also assume that such a major repair or change would have to be reported to DOT, MOT, Registry/Department of Motor Vehicles or whatever the UK has.

ESPECIALLY if a loan was taken out on the vehicle and the bank held the title, and had the vehicle as collateral.

 

Back in the day when I was younger I bought a used 1991 Ford Thunderbird from a new car ford dealer's used car section. The car was advertised as having 44k miles and looked the part. Granted I was 19 and in college then, so I wasn't as diligent about my cars as I am now at 34.

I take the car home, and notice that the speedometer would "stick" any time the car went over 40mph, basically indicating the maximum speed you had traveled. (and not coming down). I call the dealer and tell them there is something wrong. They tell me to bring the car back, and that they will take care of it. So 4 days go by because they are waiting for parts. 4 days later I get a call that my car is ready, and I get my friend to take me down there to get my car. I get the keys from the service guy, etc and he told me there would be no charge because I had just bought the car. I go out to the car, and sit in it, and what do I see. A brand new cluster complete with 2.1 miles on it. (I guess they took it for a ride to make sure it worked). There was also a sticker in the door jamb by the factory stickers that said "this car has a replacement odometer at __________ miles" with the blank filled in handwritten with a sharpie.

Anyway I take the car and leave not thinking that much about it. I went home a couple days later, and my dad saw my "new" car. He's like how many miles does it have. And I was like well it had 44k on it, but now it has 120 and I explained the story of what had happened. He is like where did you get this car. I told him, and he gets in his car and he's like follow me we're going there right now.

I was like why - he's like what they did was illegal etc etc... We're going to get your money back. So we get there, and there was a 3 hour war that ensued. The dealership was basically like you bought it, it's yours, we fixed it under warranty we're not taking it back.. 3 hours later, after several calls to some of my dad's friends.. Including a state trooper that showed up, and some rather heated words in the dealer, they agreed to take the car back, but refused to give me my money back (and claimed they had already sold my trade) - my dad wanted my old car back and the $$ I had paid. Instead they offered what I had paid in credit towards any other car I wanted. Claiming they couldn't give me my money back. My dad made them put it in writing, and told them we would be back the next day. We left the car there, and both left in my dad's car.

The next day my late father had his attorney friend contact the general manager of the dealer, as well as the owner of the "chain" that this dealer was part of. Within 2 hours, the attorney had gotten the owner's representative to agree to a full refund, they also managed to find my old car, which apparently had been moved to one of their GM stores.. (I had traded an oldsmobile) or any new car we wanted at cost, with what I had spent as credit towards it. My dad ended up buying a brand new explorer at cost - this was the first year for them, and gave me his 2 yr old Pontiac Grand Prix. And about a weeks worth of grief of never buying a car without him again..

His attorney swore that we could have gotten more out of them...

Moral of the story - If a car has altered mileage, it's something that most dealers want to make go away. I bet you get your $$ back.

What has really enabled odometer fraud is the decision of a lot of states to make cars older than 10 yrs exempt from mileage recording on the title.

George

 

George, great story, sometimes dad's did in fact know best even though we refused to think so at the time. If an odometer (speedo cluster) was replaced it NEEDS to be reported to the proper authority, and paperwork needs to be done, thats the bottom line.

Now is there a manual or digital odo on 99 STypes? I have no clue.

 

From what I understand, at least in New Jersey, there is NO paperwork to be done. There is no way to legally document an odometer change. (And keep a valid record of the miles).

Basically whoever is the owner of the car when the change happens is legally obligated to sell the car to the next buyer as "Not actual miles" - for which there is a clear option on the title and the odometer statement or what is known as TMU (True Mileage Unknown). Once the odometer recording is interfered with in any way, the car is forever branded as being of unknown mileage. However like I said this burden falls on the seller. It's perfectly legal like others have said to alter, swap, change, remove your odometer. Where it becomes odometer fraud and a crime, is when you sell the car as the indicated miles actual miles, and sign a statement to that effect knowing that it is in fact not true.

NJ is also kind of lax in terms of titles, and vehicle transfers, no notarized statements, no vin rubbings, nothing of that sort that I have seen in other states is required. Buyer and seller sign the title,and seller has to fill out the mileage section, which says " the odometer currently reads ______" and the appropriate box of actual or not actual miles. buyer takes it to DMV, walks out with a new title, and new plates and registration.

George

 

Again, Mass is different in that there is a disclosure that needs to be signed that the miliaege it is being sold as is correct. It is the BURDEN of the dealer or seller to make sure this is correct, and I have never heard of a TMU. Furthermore, when a repair shop or dealer service center makes a repair such as a speedo cluster swap it needs to be documented. Whether the local repair shop puts a sticker on the door or the dealer service center makes notes in their system indicating such a change occured. A LICENSED service center or mechanic must report through proper channels or actions. I do not know verbatim, or exactly what the procedure is, but I have been in multiple conversations with people in the industry that know what they are talking about.

In this particular instance, the car had 17k on the clock. It supposedly got replaced at 17k. It is under dealer warranty at that time, so the dealer would have made such an important repair/swap, therefore having record of it both as an invoice and electronically. I dont care if you live in Afghanistan, there MUST be some kind of law that this needed to be recorded. Again, if this vehicle was NOT purchased cash money than someone else holds title. Whether they have a loan or lease on the vehicle. I would assume that the lending institution would demand to know if their collatoral (the vehicle) has been altered in such a way that it would affect value. Car had 17k on it, someone along the line either fu*ked up or is being deceptive. IMHO

 

I don't know about how Mass does things, but even if you read your initial posting about the Mass used lemon laws, there is a sitpulation that if the vehicle's true mileage is unknown then the warranty is based on the the age. So there has to be some way for a car with a Mass title to end up TMU (or true mileage unknown). An example of that would be a car that has confirmed odometer fraud - there has to be some way to legally subsequently sell it, with proper disclosure to the buyer.

NJ puts the responsibility exclusively on the seller. Now the seller could say there was a documented odometer change and provide proof, which may appease, but the title will show that the miles that are displayed are "Not actual miles". Older cars that used a 5 digit odometer, and "Turned over" also have a space where they can claim "Exceeds mechanical limits", therefore the mileage displayed is again accurate. There is no way to title a car with "actual miles" that exceed or are different from what is displayed on the dash.

There are so many differences in the laws of each state, that no so on the up and up car dealers have made an industry of taking advantage of the differences. Google title washing and you'll see what I mean. The biggest one is that a lot of states, for example PA, exempts cars over 10 years of age from any mileage reporting requirements. The titles say "exempt" where the mileage would be indicated.

You bring that car and that title over the border to NJ, which records mileage of all cars, and you have to fill out an odometer statement, and select whether the miles are actual or not. So you take a car that had 150k miles on it, and change it to 50k on the dash. The PA title makes no reference to mileage, you bring it to NJ and walk out with an actual miles 50k mile title. PA had no idea how many miles were on the car, because they didn't care.

NJ has no point of reference i.e. a previous title or mileage statement indicating miles on the car when it was sold last.

Joe your assumption about the lien holder, and their right to know is sadly mistaken in most cases. A very good friend of mine operates a recovery company. You don't know how many times he's gone to repo cars only to find a parked wreck where someone had let their insurance lapse (or didn't report the accident because they were drunk or what have you), and in turn just stopped paying on the car. Some will even sell whatever parts they can off the car.

There very well may be some sort of recording here, at some dealer service dept (don't forget jag clusters have to be coded to the vin) etc, but you would have to seek it out, it would not automatically follow the car, especially years later.

George

 

Sounds a little easier / clearer in the UK! I've had an offer for all issues to be repaired and to be provided with a replacement vehicle during this process. I've declined and made it clear I want a full refund under the Sales of Goods Act. I've now had to make it clear that if the return is refused I shall seek a remedy through small claims and report to trading standards.

....fingers crossed a very simple return with be accepted quickly!