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-   -   Weeping Transmission Oil Cooler Lines.... (https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/s-type-s-type-r-supercharged-v8-x200-15/weeping-transmission-oil-cooler-lines-103473/)

Jon89 09-27-2013 10:43 AM

Weeping Transmission Oil Cooler Lines....
 
Crawled under my 2005 S-Type 3.0 this morning for the first time since last October to do a normal oil & filter change / tire rotation. Removed the belly pan and all looked good except for a thin coating of what I presume to be Lifeguard 6 covering the two metal transmission oil cooler lines that run underneath and in front of the compressor....

I remember reading years ago that this is a known issue caused by pinhole leaks at the areas where the lines change from metal tubes to rubber hoses. What I cannot remember is whether the issue is the rubber hose breaking down, the crimp between the rubber hose and metal tube breaking down, or something else. I used my hand to follow the metal tubes to the rubber hoses but could not detect where the weeping may be coming from because my hands are huge and I quickly ran out of room as a result....

Both metal tubes were slimy with this residue. It is a weep, not a leak, so there were no drips, puddled ATF, or anything else that would indicate that more than an ounce or so of Lifeguard 6 has escaped at this point. I used a paper towel to wipe the residue off the metal tubes, stuck my flashlight up there, and tried to get a better look. As tightly packed with components as that area is, I simply could not see much besides where the two metal tubes enter the two rubber hoses....

This looks like a monster of a repair job to me. For those of you who've done it, what components actually weep, how in the hell do you get in there to replace them, what tools are required, and how much ATF do you lose in the process of pulling those hoses to effect repairs?

This S-Type has been so good to me during the past year requiring absolutely no wrenching and still going strong with its 8-plus years old factory battery. I guess my luck just ran out....

JagV8 09-27-2013 10:55 AM

Is there anything else it could be than trans oil?

If it's a small enough leak maybe just ignore it and plan a top-up in 2-3 years.

BTW, 3.0 ... tightly packed ... hmmmmm, try the STR :(

Doryphoros86 09-27-2013 10:57 AM

I've replaced my transmission cooler lines twice now, something I've credited to my driving style combined with the weather of Minnesota (extremes of heat and cold). Anyways, the mechanic at the dealership told me that the crimps are the weak points, and that he has replaced his personal XJ8's lines a couple of times before doing some sort of non-oem fix to the crimps. I wish I knew more, but that was all I was able to get out of him and I don't think the service writer was thrilled that he told me that much.

Jon89 09-27-2013 11:16 AM

Joshua,

How much did you pay for the job?

tbird6 09-27-2013 12:04 PM

First make sure it's not P/S fluid?? The pump is in that area and any fluid will end up on those steel lines. I just went thru this on my STR and it was P/S fluid. It was wet like you described it.

The weep is from the crimp between the metal and rubber as you noted. I think the crimp is the problem and not the metal or rubber hose. If you read the JTIS they will have you dropping the sub frame and just about everything else.

The best suggestion I saw was get the car in the air using a lift so you have a lot of room to swing the lines around. I don't think Jack stands would get the car high enough in the air.
Cut the old lines out by snipping the rubber line. Then bend the new lines to get them in place and then work the bend back out after you slide them in. Those suggestions came from a guy changing them out on a V-8. I think the V-6 has better access but not by much!

I did see a back yard repair where they removed the lines by bending them to get them out. Then cutting the crimp off using a Dremel tool or some other small cut off wheel tool. You just want to get the crimp off and not cut the hose or metal tube. I have done this on other hose/tube assemblies and if you take your time it can be done pretty precisely. Once you can grab an edge of the crimp it’s thin metal and can be peeled off using side cutters or pliers. Then he slid the rubber hose back over the metal tube and used two worm drive clamps installed in opposite directions. He claimed no more seeps at all after that repair.
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Jon89 09-27-2013 12:21 PM

Thanks for the details, tbird6. Was your power steering pump leaking, or were you losing power steering fluid from the plastic reservoir? Were you losing enough fluid to notice from the level markings on the reservoir? My issue seems like the classic ATF weep, not a true leak yet. Not enough fluid to even form a drip anywhere....

tbird6 09-27-2013 12:41 PM

Well it's only been two weeks after replacing the P/S pump but everything looks OK.

It was the pump but I still can't see where it's coming from even with the pump in my hands? I think the case is split like the A/C compressor and it had a weep in that area. I would mess with it more but it had a core charge and I did not take the old pump apart. Plastic reservoir is bone dry.

It was such a small leak that at first I could not tell if it was ATF or P/S fluid. I only had to add fluid to the P/S every 6 weeks or so. But after a few months it was plain that the P/S was losing a very small amount of fluid. I lived with it for over 1 1/2 years but I HATE leaking cars! It put out a very small drip on the ground but it was small.

Turned out to be a cheap fix as my other thread mentions. The P/S pump from the Lincoln LS is exactly the same and was only $60 with a lifetime warranty. If I knew that I would have just replaced it before but I checked Jaguar and got scared at the price. Over $800!!
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MyBlackCat 09-27-2013 12:48 PM

Hey Jon, I had mine go at about 50,000 miles. Started as a slow seep and progressed to all out big leak. Car was under extended warranty but was not covered due to leak at rubber to steel joint. That sucked. Had it towed to dealer with my AAA membership. Did not want to drive the 40 miles and bleed out the tranny. Cost somewhere between $1000-1200 for the repair. Talked to Brutal before and he confirmed diagnosis and cost. Nasty job even with lift.

If I was doing it now (took it to dealer then due to the warranty) hoped for a deal off some sorts,,not.... I would use my tube cutters and cut out some of the metal and all of the rubber swage fitting. It goes from steel to rubber and steel again. Rad to tranny.
I would then just put in a new piece of rubber and clamp. Very hard to reach area but your labor is free. The rubber needs to be there due to movement and vibration down there.
If it is just seeping now keep a very close eye on it, you don't want to be far from nowhere when it leaks fast.
Good luck

Jon89 09-27-2013 01:23 PM

Thanks for your feedback, MyBlackCat. I was wondering if the weep eventually turns into a full-out leak. In your case, it did....

I like your idea of cutting out the faulty rubber hose / crimp and replacing it with a new rubber hose and worm-type clamps. But right now, I don't see how I can get my huge hands up in there (with tools, no less) to effectively make that happen. I need the hands of a five-year-old girl to be able to pull that off....

Any ideas, guys?

Doryphoros86 09-27-2013 04:50 PM


Originally Posted by Jon89 (Post 821750)
Joshua,

How much did you pay for the job?

I think it was in the same range mentioned by MyBlackCat, $1,000 to $1,200, as painful as that is for a couple of hoses. But, that price is largely labor and also does include a refill/top-off of the liquid gold. I just wish I felt more comfortable doing this particular work myself, but last thing I want to do is screw up a transmission component.

Jon89 09-27-2013 10:02 PM

The Greensboro dealership (Flow Jaguar) quoted me $775 for the job late this afternoon. Parts would be $242 and 4 hours of labor would make up the rest. A fairly good price coming from a dealership, but I still don't like shelling out that kind of money to replace a known design-flawed pair of transmission lines with the very same design-flawed lines yet again....

I'm going to drop the belly pan again one morning next week, take the car to a local indy shop that I trust, get the car up on one of their lifts, show them the challenge they face, and see if they are willing to cut the two crimped hoses out of the equation, replace them with sturdy rubber hoses, and use worm-drive type clamps to solve this issue the way it should have been designed and built. They may decline the job but it never hurts to ask....

Stay tuned....

Richard Moss 09-28-2013 04:30 AM


Originally Posted by Jon89 (Post 822103)
see if they are willing to cut the two crimped hoses out of the equation, replace them with sturdy rubber hoses, and use worm-drive type clamps to solve this issue the way it should have been designed and built.

Just make sure that you/they use really high quality hose clips - the type used for fuel hoses, not the type used for coolant hoses. The fuel hose clips are much better at withstanding higher pressures. I would also use two at each end "just in case"

JagV8 09-28-2013 05:05 AM

Well, wouldn't hurt - but it's low pressure I reckon.

Jon89 09-28-2013 08:43 AM

I don't believe that pressure will be an issue. If it was, Jaguar would have been even dumber to use their original inferior design....

joycesjag 09-28-2013 10:03 AM

Jon, I don't have any contributions to this thread, but I am later this afternoon climbing under Joyces Jag to do a 710 change. I am a bit worried what I may find under there as well since it has been along time since I too had to get under her chassis :).

Good luck with the indy this week, I know you will update us as soon as you know something.

plums 09-28-2013 10:16 AM


Originally Posted by Richard Moss (Post 822161)
Just make sure that you/they use really high quality hose clips - the type used for fuel hoses, not the type used for coolant hoses. The fuel hose clips are much better at withstanding higher pressures. I would also use two at each end "just in case"


+1

Their design has two important benefits:

360 degree clamping pressure
rolled edges to avoid cutting into the hose

Jon89 09-28-2013 12:00 PM

Rick,

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Joyce's transmission lines to be dry as a bone....

Let us know what you find under her chassis....

Jon89 09-30-2013 08:43 AM

Update:

Spoke with my trusted local indy shop this morning. They fix this exact problem on various European vehicles on a regular basis (Jaguar is not the only company to use this lousy hose design). They cut out the weeping hoses, replace them with high-quality hydraulic hoses, and use two hydraulic hose clamps on each end as an extra measure of security. Once this is done, the problem is permanently solved. They have never had one of these repairs fail....

At $97.50 an hour, having them fix my S-Type will come in somewhere between $300 and $400. I'm leaning strongly towards this option....

Doryphoros86 10-01-2013 09:12 AM

Keep us up to date on how that goes. It appears to be a reasonable solution and I would feel comfortable using their methodology of repair, especially if they have encountered the problem in other makes.

1stjagjet 10-05-2013 10:37 AM

Pressure /line placement Critical
 
2 Attachment(s)
As I am currently involved in a transmission cooler saga of my own, I will share what I have found.

2003 S-type 4.2 NA /6hp26 gearbox, Lifeguard 6 OEM fluid, <30,500 miles of pampered service since new.....

I spoke with the ZF Engineering department here in the US and learned the following. Overfilled is just as bad as under filled. The pressure from the transmission to the cooler and back is at about 3-4 bar. A pin hole that is unobservable will weep at a prodigious rate. Jaguar's design is fine until it is necessary to replace it. The lines run in parallel held in position by 3 black plastic clamps ( distance pieces ) to ensure the lines when installed remain clear of chassis and air deflector enroute to the radiator from the transmission. The lines are a combination of high pressure hose forward and aluminum lines aft with O-rings providing a seal on all 4 unions. When the engine and transmission are mated at the factory this is the last time access is easy. Next the engine /transmission/drive line is offered up to the chassis from below. Replacement will forever after require the engine to be lifted up and the AC compressor removed from its mount to gain enough access to effect a replacement of the lines.

With the current shop rates approaching $150 /hr. and shop fees of $75 at 4-5 hours of labor plus parts and fluid, this will not be an inexpensive repair.

While designed to be a sealed 100,000 mile unit, reports of shift quality, noises "the ZF squawk" and poor maintenance suggest that a interim fluid/filter/pan and gasket might be the way to avoid an expensive premature failure of epic scale. I say epic because I consider a $ 4-6000 repair unacceptable.

Just happen to have one in stock image below

There is another alternative. Having vast experience in aviation, I have had my XJ6 lines made from the old one at an aviation hydraulic repair station.
So in other words have a repair station take portions of the factory lines once cleaned and deburred and mate them with swaged high pressure hoses that would allow installation flexibility and provide an useful and in most cases lower cost replacement. Some engineering will be required such as a template for length and how much aluminum line to retain, but not rocket science.

I plan to make a back up replacement from my original lines once retrieved from the upcoming repair. I will update as completed.

Cheers Robert

Jon89 10-05-2013 01:49 PM

Unless the metal tubing portion of the lines fail, there is no reason to replace them. The line failures that tend to be reported on this forum seem to occur at the metal tubing-to-rubber hose crimps, an infamous weak spot / design flaw. So the easiest, quickest, and most cost-effective repair in this case is to do what I'm planning to do (as described above)....

aholbro1 10-05-2013 11:24 PM

Looking forward to hearing they've got you fixed up, Jon. I was worried about this on the wife's 05 - noticed a few really sparse drips on the garage floor the last couple of weeks. I was kinda dreading a cam-cover change, but actually hoping for that over a belly-pan refit or searching out someone here to do what you're having done. Looks like I dodged a bullet - just a seep at the oil filter gasket! Of course, that's good news/bad news - I put that one on....must've not snugged it up quite enough.

Richard Moss 10-06-2013 07:58 AM


Originally Posted by Jon89 (Post 822245)
I don't believe that pressure will be an issue. If it was, Jaguar would have been even dumber to use their original inferior design....

1stjagjet says that the pressure is 3-4bar (45-60 psi) approximately. That's reasonably high, I would say, and certainly enough to get ugly if there's a break n the pipe or a loose union. Fuel hoses would typically be 100psi+ whereas a coolong system s just 16-18psi

plums 10-06-2013 08:44 AM

lots of after market transmission coolers and a/c condensors are installed using hose clamps over rubber hose

JagV8 10-06-2013 09:00 AM

I'm wondering if 3-4 bar is correct. Seems a lot just to move some not very hot trans fluid.

Jon89 10-06-2013 12:26 PM

I do not believe that the pressures are as high as speculated in this thread. Next time you're under your car with the belly pan off, take a look at the OEM rubber hose section of those lines. Quite flimsy. High-quality hydraulic hoses will more than suffice if the work is done by a competent guy with the right tools and know-how....

1stjagjet 10-07-2013 07:26 AM

Zf provided pressure Figures
 
2 Attachment(s)
Jon, V8

If you look closely at the cooler lines you will notice swaged unions from aluminum to hose which is indicative of a higher pressure. The exact quote from a ZF engineer was about 3 + bar. My issue was caused by rubbing of the lower cooling pipe ( aluminum portion ) on the air deflector due to a poor warranty repair. The compromised area of the bottom of the tube appears to have been rubbed enough to flattened the pipe approximately 3/8 of the outside diameter. The resulting reduction of wall thickness was enough to cause a weep that amounts to a drop every second at rest. A long trip would cause a sure reduction of the fluid, prevent operational function and eventual failure of the gearbox.

I will be speaking with ZF again this morning about the additive to stop the "ZF Squawk". In addition to other programming issues, I will share my findings.

Lads, I wouldn't guess at the pressure, I picked up the phone and spoke to the source. I won't speculate on the specifications, I get them from a credible source or I won't mention them.

2003 S-type 4.2 Zf 6HP 26 part shown C2Z11606 includes brackets and O rings SN# M 45255 up

plums 10-07-2013 08:59 AM


Originally Posted by plums (Post 828399)
lots of after market transmission coolers and a/c condensors are installed using hose clamps over rubber hose

BTW, all of the components on both the high side and low side circuits of aftermarket A/C kits installed when A/C was not common, were installed with hose clamps on the barbed fittings. It was also common to replace swaged fittings with hose and clamp when servicing factory A/C systems. Recall that the high side circuit can be in the hundreds of psi.

Essentially, swaging and hose clamps perform the same function: applying clamping pressure on an underlying barb. The swaging just happens to be more repeatable in an assembly line environment and lends itself it automated final assembly.

1stjagjet 10-07-2013 09:59 AM

Jubilee Clips replaced by Factory
 
Plums

The original design used Jubilee clips( Hose Clamps ) and was found unsatisfactory and generated a TSB due to the leaks observed in the field.
It should be apparent that the swaged solution is required in this case due to the pressures involved. Repairs done with a clamp these days only insures a return for more expensive service. Please advise one OEM A/C system that uses clamps today. Economy of scale and lower production costs aside. Reliable is just better.

I have seen none, but I would be interested.

Please contact me by PM

Robert

1stjagjet 10-07-2013 11:05 AM

Lifeguard 1 and Vaseline Best options !
 
After chatting with the Zf engineering team, I am reliably told that LG 1 will quiet the infamous squawk heard by some owners. Again the pressure of about 3 bar ( 1 BAR = 14.7 PSI ) was confirmed.

With regard to the Sleeve replacement should be carried out with the application of Vaseline jelly on the sleeve to prevent binding as it is inserted from the outside of the case. Closely check the pin in the female plug to make sure they have not receded back into the plug. This will give you a communication error.

These are also known to leak and cause mischief. So if for any reason you drop the pan, replace the sleeve at $16 you would be well advised to do it.

Enjoy the Day and these wonderful if not inexpensive Motorcars!

Robert

Sealing parts: The CTSC - ZF parts

tbird6 10-07-2013 12:42 PM

Well it's a shame ZF can't do a better job of this!!

We were told at first to use a separate additive. Then the additive went obsolete and we were told that the Lifguard6 fluid contains the additive.

Now again we have a change and this magic additive is now in LG1 (Lifeguard1?)

Any idea how much of this magic LG 1 needs to be added?

I have serviced my transmission and at $19/L the regular Lifeguard6 is expensive enough!!
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plums 10-07-2013 08:25 PM


Originally Posted by plums (Post 828900)
... all of the components on both the high side and low side circuits of aftermarket A/C kits installed when A/C was not common, were installed with hose clamps on the barbed fittings. It was also common to replace swaged fittings with hose and clamp when servicing factory A/C systems.

This was at an authorized service facility for transport refrigeration systems, aka "reefers" and authorized aftermarket A/C add-on kit distributor.

Never saw a single comeback for leaks.

aholbro1 10-07-2013 09:40 PM


Originally Posted by plums (Post 829267)
This was at an authorized service facility for transport refrigeration systems, aka "reefers" and authorized aftermarket A/C add-on kit distributor.

Never saw a single comeback for leaks.

+1 Plums,
I believe it was the barrier-hose introduced with R-134a that did-in the clamp/barb arrangement, nothing to do with pressure at all. However, even with that, I know Ford, and I believe most other OEM's have a recommended service procedure involving barbs and hose clamps in the A/C system. Most any OEM Service manual will insist you add an in-line filter in addition to replacing rec/drier or suction accum & CCOT if your a/c compressor comes apart and spreads its innards throughout your system. In-line filter = Cut the hose, use hose clamps to secure the barbed fittings on the filter to the hose - and even on the suction side, you will easily see 100 psi.

aholbro1 10-12-2013 09:29 AM

Jon,

Got those lines mended yet?

Jon89 10-12-2013 11:51 AM

Zane,

We're still dealing with the death of my wife's father ten days ago. She's back from his funeral in Tampa now (and is thankful to have been present for his death), but there is still much to do to notify all the required government agencies and businesses in order to get her mother taken care of....

Our S-Type needs the transmission lines work and her XK8 needs an oil & filter change / tire rotation / front brake pad job, but the cars must wait for the time being....

I hope to get to everything within the next ten days or so....

aholbro1 10-12-2013 12:18 PM

Jon,
Really sorry to hear that. We went through a similar event about this time last year with my wife's mother. Unfortunately, she was still enroute and didn't get to be with her when she died. Thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.

Zane

Jon89 10-17-2013 08:30 AM

Update:

The transmission hose replacement job is scheduled for next Tuesday, October 22nd. Two custom-made hydraulic hoses (their next-door-neighbor business is a hydraulic hose manufacturer) will replace the design-flawed OEM weeping hose segments in both lines. They expect to lose between 6 and 8 ounces of ATF as part of the replacement process. I'm taking them my two bottles of ZF Fluid when I drop off the car on Monday evening so they'll have the right stuff to use when they top it up after the new hoses are in place....

Stay tuned....

TonyX 10-17-2013 08:44 AM

Jon,
Condolences to your family for the loss.

1stjagjet 10-18-2013 04:45 AM

Sorry for your Loss / Be prepared...
 
I got caught short since the procedure for checking the final level requires them to spill this precious fluid to ensure the proper amount. You would think that 2 liters would be enough, but !

I plan to use my old original cooler lines to do the same thing. In Orlando their is an Aviation repair station that can make exact replicas at a fraction of the cost. Go figure. I plan to use much higher spec hose with the aluminum ends so the engine, sub frame and steering rack don't have to be removed to accomplish the task.

I assume your line rubbed the air deflector and the lower aluminum line is leaking?

I will post specs when done.

Jon89 10-18-2013 10:00 AM

You assume incorrectly. Re-read the thread. These hoses tend to leak at the crimp, not from the aluminum tubes. The crimp is the design flaw....


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