Update:

Our S-Type is in the shop for its new transmission line hydraulic hoses today. If all goes as planned, this will eliminate the weeping hose crimp design flaw that all of these cars eventually suffer from. Prior to taking it in, I removed the belly pan so I can drive it for a week or two just to make certain that the lines now stay bone-dry....

Stay tuned....

Update:

My indy shop has not been able to locate the required 13mm inside-diameter hydraulic hoses from any of their suppllers today. That's the bad news....

The good news is that my existing transmission lines and hoses are still bone-dry from when I wiped them down on September 27th after discovering they were wet while I was underneath the car doing an oil & filter change. So the hose crimp weep is still miniscule at this point....

My shop's recommendation going forward is for me to leave the belly pan off, drive the car for a month or so, and watch the lines. That will allow them time to keep looking for the appropriate hydraulic hoses so they will be ready to do the job if and when the weep gets worse....

This 2005 S-Type is the first vehicle they've had where they could not source the required hydraulic hose size to be able to complete the OEM transmission hose cut-and-clamp repair. Bummer....

No charge today. Not even a diagnostic fee. Since they couldn't locate the hydraulic hose size they need, they refuse to ask me for any money. As I said, these are trustworthy guys....

Whatabout 1/2 hose - the difference is miniscule?

We discussed that possibility. Their experience is that whenever you attempt to use a standard size vs. the required metric size, it will eventually leak even with double clamps on each end. They recommended not attempting to use the half-inch hose and continuing to search for the appropriate 13mm hose. I agreed....

I find their recommendation a bit odd.

1"= 25.4mm. Therefore, 1/2" = 12.7mm.

That difference of 0.3mm in the diameter is so small that it would not be noticeable. I would be quite happy to go for it on my car.

Then go for it. I'll wait for the proper 13mm hose to be located and sourced. These guys are consummate pros. They have been doing various weeping transmission hose cut-and-clamp repairs with the proper hydraulic hoses for years. With replacement hoses that are even a fraction off in inside diameter, the transmission internal pressures eventually cause weepage and sometimes even full-blown leaks again, particularly as the hoses get some age on them. I'll listen to these guys. They have always been honest with me and have never steered me wrong....

Update:

I've had several sources looking for the appropriate 13mm inside-diameter hydraulic hoses since late October. No one was ever able to come through for me. So I spoke with my local indy shop last week to revisit the possibility of using half-inch inside-diameter hydraulic hoses instead. They will do it if I insist, but they recommend against it due to their experience with leaks from incorrectly-sized hydraulic hoses in previous repairs. I appreciate their honesty and decided to punt....

So I called Flow Jaguar in Greensboro. They worked with me this past summer in getting the ZF shift issue solved on my wife's XK8 at a very fair price. I explained the weeping hose issue to them, reminded them that my preference is to go with 13mm replacement hoses rather than putting a new set of OEM lines in because I believe it would have a greater chance of being a permanent solution, and they understood. But they have no access to 13mm hoses either. So they will continue to honor their $775 total price for new OEM lines that they quoted me back in late September. That's about $400 less than any other dealership I've spoken with or read about here in this thread....

After thinking it over for a day or so, I decided to accept their deal. I discovered my weeping lines on September 27th, they've been weeping for at least three months (they were wet again today when I removed the belly pan), no one has come through for me with the elusive 13mm hoses, and there is no way to know how much Lifeguard 6 has weeped out at this point although I assume it still isn't much. The job needs to be done on a lift, I don't have access to one, and even with a lift it is still one hell of a job that I do not want to tackle by myself. Going with OEM replacement lines is not my first choice because in my opinion they are still design-flawed parts right out of the box, but I need to get this weeping issue resolved and right now this is my best option for doing so....

My new OEM lines arrived at the dealership yesterday. My S-Type is scheduled at Flow Jaguar for 7:30 tomorrow morning. The dealership is about 80 miles away so I'll stick around and wait on the car. They say they'll need it for at least 4 hours after the Lifeguard 6 cools down from my drive there. Some additional fluid will definitely be lost when the old lines are removed, so I'm bringing my two bottles of Lifeguard 6 with me since part of my negotiated rate involves providing my own fluid. Once the new OEM lines are in place, I plan to leave the belly pan off for at least a couple of weeks to ensure that the weeping issue has indeed been resolved. I'll try to keep this thread updated since I know this is an issue that all 2003-and-up S-Types will eventually face....

Have you tried Europe? Over here we have been using the metric system for a LONG time and there's surely more chance of finding some hoses that are that whole 0.3mm bigger.

Update:

Done. The new OEM lines are in. The old lines were weeping at the rubber-to-metal crimps, and the return line was also weeping slightly at its O-ring connection on the transmission oil cooler. Once the new lines were in, it took just over one litre of Lifeguard 6 to top the ZF unit up to its normal level. So I had actually lost more fluid than I thought....

At just over 80,000 miles, my original fluid still looked golden. Nhao, Flow Jaguar's master tech who did this job, said he would let it do 100,000 miles before changing it. He's been a Jaguar tech since 1984 so I value his opinion. I may change it sooner, though. As long as my sleeve doesn't leak, I definitely have some time left....

I'm going to keep the belly pan off the car through the holidays and monitor these new lines to make certain they stay bone-dry with no more weeping. Nhao has done a number of these ZF lines replacements and he's convinced it is fixed. But he does admit that eventually the new lines will develop the same leak at the rubber-to-metal crimp. That is inevitable. If it takes another eight years, that's fine with me. I don't expect we'll still own this car by then....

So check your lines for wetness whenever you're under your S-Type with your belly pan off, guys. Like the DCCV and the coolant reservoir, sooner or later all of these transmission lines fail and leak. The key is to catch it and fix it before your ZF transmission loses enough fluid and decides to go up in smoke....

Thanks for the update John.

I was also wondering why 1/2" wouldn't work the difference is 0.012" and tighter so it should be an advantage if the hose will go on.
We will need to wait for another guinea pig now. :)

Norri,

Had my local indy shop felt as comfortable with half-inch hose as they were with 13mm hose, I would have chosen that solution. But they would not guarantee the half-inch hose since technically it is an incorrect spec and their honesty essentially talked me out of taking that risk. Perhaps they were simply finding another way to say "Hey, we appreciate your business but we know how freakin' ugly this job is going to be and we really don't want any part of it"....

I'm just glad this problem is now behind me. We all know how expensive it is to rebuild or replace a ZF transmission. I did not want to risk losing any more fluid and sending my ZF to oblivion. Nhao says that once these 6HP26 units dip below 8 litres, you're flirting with disaster....

It sounds to me like they were trying to protect themselves from American lawyers rather than genuinely worried about the fit. :)

You may be right....

But nearly three months after discovering the weeping ATF issue, my problem is now resolved. If my replacement lines last another 8 years as the factory lines did, I'm good to go because I doubt if we'll still have this S-Type in our stable by then....

Having read through this thread I have to agree that 1/2" would be just fine.

More important is, how this more reasonable short cut method is effected?

Can one cut the aluminum tubes in situ?

1. I would guess that a plumbing style rolling cutter is what's needed to avoid metal particles and is there room enough for that?

2. Has anyone actually done this without removing the aluminum portions of the system?

I've used push lock style hose (no clamps at all) on engine oil cooling systems for 25 year runs with no issues so this 60PSI should no problem at all.


Meanwhile I'll keep looking for other threads.

There is zero working room in the engine bay, particularly for trying to roll a plumbing-style tube-cutter around the lines. Any way you look at it, replacing or repairing these transmission lines is one hell of a job to do (especially for those of us with gorilla-sized hands)....

My new lines (December 2013) have not leaked a drop of fluid. Knocking furiously on wood right now that it stays that way. I never want to have to deal with this issue again....

I have one of these which I use it tight spots?

For me the big issue for having a hose shop replace the rubber and swage them on with a sturdier clamp (the tranny cooler ones are junk IMHO) is getting the orientation of both complex aluminum ends just right. The joint should not move once clamped so it the orientation is off forget about using them.

They just spin like tops on the failed hoses.

I faced the same issue with my engine oil cooling hoses but those did not spin.

But again, to be certain of proper orientation I'd have to build a one piece jig that held both pipe ends exactly correct so that the hose shop could swage them on accurately.

I decided no in both situations.

I also strongly suspect that the short amount of flexible hose is what leads to earlier than expected failure. IMHO those clamps are being over stressed.

Yep, design flaw no. 689 on these cars. Keep 'em long enough and every single one of these S-Types will bite you with this problem....

Well here's another - upgraded supercharger idler is crap.

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...0/#post1218805

I wish I had the time and resources to figure out a better solution for this as well as the engine oil cooler hoses but I do not.

So at least I found a $14 alternative to the Jaguar screw job of at least $90+ for the entire pulley. This is the upgraded solution! :rolleyes:

Bad kitty no dinner.

After I finished the belts & pulleys service yesterday it was back on the tranny cooler hose assemblies. I can get the puch-loc hose and clamps on the radiator side fittings because they're out of the car and the large amount of force required to presh the hose on even with some head and lubricant is not possible on the ends still in the car. :(

So I'm going to get a set of dash 8 AN male to 1/2" tubing compression fittings to use on that end and hopefully put and end to this repair - argh more delays.

Then the engine cooler hoses go back on and I can finish the assembly.

Oil sump has to come off and get a new gasket, hope that fits?

A complete cooling system flush and I'm going to ignore the slight leak at the reservoir tank. I believe it can't be repaired even with a new tank as they leak as soon after being installed anyway. I'm on my second, it stopped the leak for 6 months! It's barely perceptible too.

Transmission at another time maybe by a shop. I'm going to top it up with some of the Ford stuff for now. I'm sure it's low due to the leak and the loss from the hose disconnection.

My weeping transmission lines lost more than a litre of ATF from the time that passed between finding the leak and having the new lines installed. About three months if I remember correctly....

I would not ignore that leaking coolant reservoir. That could eventually cost you your engine....

John, I appreciate that but what would you suggest? It's been in there for about 3 years and started leaking only months after being replaced. Crap is crap. I only lose enough to run around the lip edge and then it dries out so no real lose to speak of. That's the way it was when I took it in for warranty replacement. If someone has an improved tank I'm all ears. I have a really good Norma style clamp with rolled edges (FI style) on that tiny hose too. :(

Maybe some silicone at the base of the nuipple will stop it. I can try ...

I've got two bottle of the Mercon so I'll see if that gives me a temporary reprieve until I can get the pan dropped. It is only 50K miles.

I need to inspect the front pads as well so after all of this only the under supercharger hose time bomb left as a big repair. I'm not sure that it's any worse then all the things I'm replacing now though. Oil hose failures are an instant killer.

My local repair guy is very good though his shop is messy and he's a bit more rough than I like for a car like this. So my Suburban goes there.

I showed him the oil cooler hoses (tranny & engine) he says that's pretty typical these days for a lot of cars. Wonderful ...
But the ones on my Suburban were leaky last year At 125K not 50K.

They use a set of brass compression 1/2" to simple hose barb type fittings and then a piece of hose and a pair of clamps when it becomes too much work to remove everything.


Enough kvetching already :)

Hopefully this will help others when it's their turn.

Here's another alternative: https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/s...repair-197236/

I hope this patch fix works for you. It would not have worked for my return line because along with it weeping at the rubber-to-metal crimp, it was also weeping at the O-ring connection on the oil cooler side of the line. So in my case, brand-new lines were probably the best decision at the time. That was in late 2013 and the replaced lines continue to be weep-free today. However, they do not resolve the original design flaw - they just re-start the clock on the lifespan of the new lines. So anytime I am underneath the car (now down to perhaps twice a year under normal circumstances but more frequently than that with all the suspension refurbishment Wayne and I did in 2017), I make sure to inspect these lines as best I can....

i recently bought a jaguar xf supercharged with a burned tranny, my mechanic found the trans. cooling lines to be the cause of the transmission burning due to the lines sipping oil thru, it pron went unnoticed to the last owner and well tranny burned out. my mechanic charged me 240 to put lines in. but the lines are expensive so total spent about 550 for the repair. he had to take the crossmember out from then engine as well as loosening the engine mounts to be able to lift engine and have room to remove and install new lines. with the tranny, lines and oil im close to 1100 total. but worth it as im very happy with the way the car drives and runs. and yes he is a certified mechanic. lol

Just look at those complex pipes and the short section of hose with a cummy crimp connection. :icon_sad:


Here's another alternative: https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/s...repair-197236/

If the snow ever stops I have to put mine up on jackstands again and see where the leaks are this time. I went with brand new OEM oil cooler lines for this STR and what's dripping smells like engine oil. Maybe I'll get lucky and this time an oil filter failed or the pan gasket needs replacing or ... the rear main seal has dailed! :mad:

Last time around I spent a lot of time looking at how I could modify those complex pieces of aluminum pipe to incorporate much longer pieces of hose and decided it was a huge project because of all of the trial and error fitting that was likely to be involved. Looks like I may have to revisit this idea. It doesn't have to be this annoying and crappy if the cras are engineered properly in the first place. Jaguars are NOT well engineered cars. PERIOD. They're not alone though.

Those tortured cooling lines are symptom of too much equipment in a tight space. I suspect the computer then lays out all the piping.

I had to do the tranny cooler lines at the same time. Those I did manage to repair inplace and I added longer lengths of hose but probably not long enough but at this point I can simply replace the hose portion fairly easily should it fail.

I have to wonder if they'd simply put a soft barb on each end of the aluminum and used a high quality hose clamp instead of that cummy crimp that it might hold up a lot better. Even a push lock hose fitting would be better than this.

1/2" is smaller than 13mm. It should be a tighter fit, not looser. Plus, one of the other threads around here said that the pipes were exactly 1/2 and not metric but I cannot verify that.

Correct link: https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/s...repair-197236/