Has anyone else out there had this transmission additive TSB done to their 6-speed ZF? If so, were your shift noises cured as a result?

 

I spoke with ZF Corporate USA in Chicago this morning about the occasional "whirr" I've heard in our transmission during the last couple of weeks. They are familiar with this issue and agree that the additive proposed by Jaguar's TSB is indeed the solution (ZF makes the additive - it is called Lifeguard 1). ZF says that this "whirr" is far more common in Audi vehicles running the 6-speed ZF than any other. They attribute this to the 300 or more differences in transmission programming as compared to Jaguars or Mercedes....

I was told that this periodic noise is caused by briefly sticking clutch packs and it will not cause eventual damage to the transmission if the additive is not used. It remains just a noise and should be regarded as an irritation, not a potential damage threat....

I then turned the conversation to the following topics:
1. Why no dipstick and filler tube in my ZF?
2. Why is ZF Fluid so ridiculously expensive?
3. What about running other well-respected and far less costly ATFs in my ZF?
4. How frequently should the ATF in my ZF be changed?

Here's a brief synopsis of the answers I received:

1. While ZF recognizes that some owners are quite capable of monitoring and changing their own ATF, they believe that most owners would cause severe problems if they were easily able to drain and fill their own transmissions. ZF units are extremely sensitive to being both overfilled and underfilled, and ZF believes that they are far better off from a legal perspective (especially through the warranty period) if they keep their units sealed.

2. ZF acknowledges that their ATF prices are far higher than what we consider as normal here in the U.S. European tariffs, taxes, shipping, etc. have all contributed to keeping the price of this stuff artificially high. In just the last month, ZF has reacted by lowering their ATF prices here in the U.S. Whether this has filtered down to dealership parts departments remains to be seen.

3. While other ATFs on the market may indeed meet the published Shell M1375.4 specs and lubrication requirements, ZF has never tested any other fluids in its transmissions and has no idea what may or may not work long-term other than its own proprietary ZF Fluid. ZF does not doubt that there may be other fluids on the market that could do the job, but they continue to specify that ZF Fluid is the required standard. If you choose to run anything else while you are under warranty, you void your warranty as expected.

4. For vehicles driven "under normal conditions" (meaning a 50/50 mix of highway/city driving, no towing, no gravel or dirt roads, and no hotrodding), ZF Fluid should be good for at least 100,000 miles. For vehicles that are hotrodded, see mostly city stop-and-go driving, do any towing, or are driven in dusty conditions, you should begin to think about changing your ZF Fluid in as few as 60,000 miles.


Disclaimer - While I appreciated obtaining this information from ZF, it should under no circumstances be considered as the ultimate truth. Read it carefully and draw your own conclusions based upon your own experiences....

 

Thanks!

 

Good to know! I'll have to keep an ear out for the whirr. Since I'm running 100% incompatible fluid lol.

 

Good read jon, thanks for doing the legwork on it!

I may even snip a part of it for our FAQ thread in the xk8 area. sjuraud hopefully may do the same to the s-type's thread.

 

I haven't even begun to look into this but after reading the very nice report a few of questions arise.

1. Do Audi, BMW etc. also have their own marque branded fluid or are they just supplying the what is presumably the identical fluid as Jaguar.
It would be interesting to see what the companies that market the flushing machines such as BP products think about this.

2. Who actually makes this fluid for them? I wonder what is "so special" about it? I'm not an attorney but I believe that there are laws in the USA that prohibit warranty invalidation if a substitute which meets the required specification is used.

3. Anyone who has owned cars with extended mileage or age is going to be very skeptical about a sealed transmission with no fluid change for 100K miles. My warranty will not be in jeopardy because my time limit will run out way before I need a change due to mileage but if that weren't the case I know I sure wouldn't follow ZF's admonition of waiting till 100K miles.

4. They mention an extreme sensitivity to fluid levels and thus the recommendation to leave it well enough alone. That's an even stronger reason to provide a dip stick and fill point! All seals and gaskets eventually leak. Sounds like it would be best to be able to check the fill level throughout the life of the transmission. An approved documented exchange/fill procedure would be nice to have. What do the Jag dealers do for a fluid exchange? Sell you a new car?

 

They look to be reselling the same LifeGuardFluid6, complete with their own part # and (probably: hike in) price.
No idea.
It's said to be Shell M1374.5.
Good luck with USA laws on what appears to be a German company (and an English/Indian jag). As we say: I wouldn't start from here.
Yep, I'm highly skeptical.
Or at least a fluid-level sensor. (Or pressure.) And better than the typical engine oil sensor!!

 

ZF says that regardless of which car manufacturer their transmission is in, it is always factory-filled with ZF Fluid. Some call it that, some don't. Every manufacturer has a different part number for it, and a different price. The last time I checked locally (probably back in March or April), the Hyundai dealership (it's in the Genesis) was selling it for more money than the Jaguar dealership was. Unbelieveable....

Think you can run something other than ZF Fluid and still successfully file a warranty claim if you suffer a transmission failure? That's a huge (and foolish) risk to take. There are warnings on the ZF website that if you run anything other than ZF Fluid, transmission damage is likely to occur. Both Jaguar Corporate and ZF Corporate have warned me verbally that the warranty is voided as soon as anything other than ZF Fluid or the approved ZF Fluid additive as specified in the TSB goes into the transmission. Do I believe that ZF Fluid is the only ATF that will perform satisfactorily in this car? No, I do not. Would I pour anything other than ZF Fluid into our car's transmission if it were still under warranty? Absolutely not....

In my conversation yesterday, ZF explained that their transmissions are factory-filled by weight, not by volume. Volume changes up and down with temperature, weight does not, therefore weight is a far more accurate measurement. ZF knows that owners do their transmission drain-and-fills by volume, and as sensitive to fluid levels as these things supposedly are, ZF believes that most owners, Jiffy Lubes, and even transmission shops will usually get it wrong. That's one of the primary reasons that ZF seals their units. Do I like that and agree with it? No on both counts, and I told ZF so. They understand, but they have no plans to change their sealed policy....

For those of you who want to talk to ZF Corporate USA for more clarification, it's (800) 660-2269.

 

Thinking a bit more.... as the fluid is only available from ZF that probably represents a number of EU law infringements (restraint of free trade, anti-competition, whatever).
The snag is that it's horrifically hard and expensive to attempt to bring to trial unless done by the authorities (probably even bigger costs but they can afford them)

 

Hi Jon,

No I wouldn't use anything else while mine is under warranty either. I agree it's not worth the hassle. But ... I believe US laws and regulations prevent them from denying a warranty claim if you use another fluid that meets their published specifications. It doesn't matter where on the planet their corporate headquarters are located. Will they cooperate willingly? Probably not without an attorney involved.

This is all such stupid crap that really p*isses people off. I can't fathom why they don't get that. Maybe it's a dose of German arrogance ...

BTW, without a filling port does anyone know how the Jag dealers properly change/fill these units?

Bob S.

 

The ZF is drained via the drain plug hole, and then filled by syringe or pump through a higher-up fill plug hole. It requires getting the car up and level, preferably on a lift, but some have done it working on their back using jack stands. If you don't get the car level, you're going to have great difficulty getting the new fluid correct....

Several folks here on the forum have successfully completed their own drain-and-fills this year. Search ccc and joycesjag's posts and you'll find excellent write-ups of the process....

 

Have they published them?
I don't think so.

 

I don't know? When people threw Shell M1374.5 around in the discussions I thought they read it somewhere?

Maybe we should get that cleared up first?

Bob S.

 

This is the Jag approved method?

Do these methods get ALL the fluid exchanged or just what's in the pan and tranny body? What you're describing doesn't sound like it gets the fluid in the torque converter but maybe there's more to it?

Bob S.

 

Somewhere or other someone posted that it was that Shell stuff (and I carefully filed it away for when I change my ZF trans oil). Don't know for sure if it's true or indeed what the actual detailed specs of the Shell stuff are. This whole affair has put me off ZF as a company. It's plain that lots of owners of other marques feel the same about these stupidly-designed boxes. Maybe ZF will wise up.

 

Yes its shell M1374.5, funny thing is, when you cross refence supported applications across the board the ZF6HP is not listed, but most other ZF trannys are.

Its been posted that it has not been tested in this gearbox by ZF, which strikes me as odd.

I havent driven a zero mile STR so I dont know gearbox behavior by heart, but doing what I did made a noticable improvment.

Shifts are crisper, faster and on light throttle hardly noticable.

 

My diff was replaced twice during the warranty period because of a whining noise - the first one was changed during the first two months of owning the car from new.

This seems to have been an issue with the 'S' Type - those of Middle East spec at least, since at the time of my first replacement the main dealer confided in me that "dozens" had been changed out under warranties. My first replacement lasted about 200,000 km so presumably there had been some modification done, then the whining reoccurred about 6 months before the expiry of my 5 year, (unlimited) warranty, so they changed it out again.

During this time I never experienced any seal problems - just the noise.

 

A drain-and-fill will never get all of the old fluid out of the transmission system. It has been reported by several members here (including Brutal) that the most you can expect to drain is 7.5 litres out of the 10 total litres if you also drop the pan. I'm not dropping my pan unless my sleeve O-ring begins to leak as Rick's did. So I hope to do just one drain-and-fill during the lifetime of this car in our stable (assuming we indeed wind up keeping it for the long haul - the jury is still out on that). I'm guessing that a routine drain-and-fill without dropping the pan may net 6.5 to 7 litres of old ATF. My experience has always been that if you can get at least 60% of the original ATF out, you'll be fine. You can keep doing quick-succession drain-and-fills to increase your percentage, but I don't plan on doing that....

I don't like the risk involved with flushes. Too many horror stories out there of dredging up debris that winds up clogging the valve bodies and causing more harm than good. I won't risk that on a ZF. While I like the smoothness of its performance in our S-Type, the more I learn about ZF transmissions, the more quirky and susceptible to various types of failure I believe they are. I may be wrong, but that's my perception. So no flushing for ours....

 

Whining diffs. were a well known problem with the old jags, and expensive too. About the only thing that quietens them is to use much thicker diff. oil. If the car is a very high miler a new/recon diff. could be the answer, but would it make economic sense? If not, the thick oil route might be the best way to go to eak out what life is left in it. Or simply putting the right oil in it and see what happens? If yours is an '05 STR, then in UK it would be worth quite a lot, so find the cheapest deal for a recon/remanufacture -- I'm sure with a bit of ferreting around you can trim that $4000 down some. Best of luck...
Leedsman.

 

Any flush also involves dropping the pan. I've had 3 done in the last 12 years with no issues. Unless ZF has issued a service bulletine about this not being advisable and why then so I don't see why this should be an issue.

If they really are that tempermental then say goodbye to ZF as a company. The marketplace won't support flakey products like this.

If it's making you feel this uncomfortable perhaps you should get a different car. It's not good to be afraid to service a car properly.

Bob S.