I'm troubleshooting a security failure light/key will not turn on a friend's 2004 X-type 3.0. Trying to determine if the key is too worn. My question is,
what does the RFID in the key disengage? A lock thatallows you to turn the key in the cylinder or some other security measure alongthe ignition process? In other words, if you insert a key with correct cuts andNO programming in the ignition, will the key turn?





Thanks!

 

Khello, the RFID chip in the key transponds (ie, talks and listens) to the car and it sends a special series of characters to the ECU. When the series of characters matches what it has stored in memory, it then allows the circuit to be completed for allowing firing of the coils and therefore allow the engine to run.

With that being said, a properly cut key will allow the tumblers to be turned and function normally with the exception of the proper set of characters being sent to the ECU. So, normal door function and turning of the ignition is possible.

 

Thermo,


Thank you for the quick response!

 

Has anyone tried taking the transponder chip out of the key and securing it to the cylinder like this guy?

 

Khello, I do not recommend doing what is in the video because this opens up your car to theft. With the transponder in the steering column, then all that has to be done to steal the car is force the ignition switch over. While most theives will not know that you have the transponder there, all it takes is a friend mentioning to another friend that you have done this and if that distant person has less than desirable morals, it can lead to situations that you may not want to experience.

 

Chris, thank you for your advice. I agree with you, and I wouldn't do that on any of my vehicles (they all spend the night in a locked garage). I'm helping a friend whose funds are limited. She only has one working key. Probably 'had' since we're troubleshooting a no start issue. So we can't clone a key and the dealership is three hours away.
Thanks again.

 

Khello, if you are troubleshooting the car not starting and are suspecting a bad key, the check for this is pretty easy. PUt the key into the ignition and turn it to the start position. if the key is not sending a good number, you should see a flashing red light on the center console near the e-brake (red light is on the black coin holder). You may also see a warning messaging about theft in the message center.

Just to ask a silly question, but have you checked the OBD codes for any relating to a bad CAN bus? This could possibly affect the signal getting from the ignition key to the PATS module (which is what disables the car). If the red light on the center console is not flashing at any point (should flash periodically with all doors shut and the doors locked), you may have blown a fuse to the PATS module.

If you need more assistance, let me know.

 

Chris,


The security light flashes when I try to start the car and I get a 'Security Failure' message.


Will the car send any OBD codes with the security lock activated??

 

If the key won't turn and you get the security message, is that the actual key for the car?

 

Barnter, I didn't have the entire story when I first posted (hadn't even seen the car). The story is driving in heavy rain, both driver and passenger foot wells got wet. a couple of weeks later, she told me her key didn't turn (that's where I got the worn key theory) and her son had taken out the TCM and cleaned it.


I showed up to look at the car and key and it turned out she meant the car doesn't turn. They key unlocked the cylinder, but the dash displayed the security failure message. When I was there, her son plugged the TCM back in, and the dash displayed both a security failure and transmission error/failure message. NICE!

 

Khello, Sounds like there might be a problem with the TCM. I'd start by checking for some DTCs via a scanner. You may end up needing some SDD help.

 

Khello, get the codes read. It may very well be that you don't necessarily have a problem with the TCM but with the data link between the modules. You don't mention what month the car was built in (this is written in the driver's door jam, lower right corner). There are 2 different wiring harnesses for the car for that year. Once I know the build month/year (do not be surprised if you have an 04 that was built in say 09/03), I will know the correct diagrams to look at.

It is possible that the car you are dealing with got some water in the TCM which messed up the data link to all the modules (the CAN network is two wires that run to all the modules). If this data link does not send the message properly from the ignition tumbler to the ECU, TCM, and/or the PATS module, then the car will see it as a wrong key, disabling the car.

Once I get the build date, then I will look at the diagrams and worst case, I can send you the diagrams too (just need you to PM me your e-mail addy). that way you can see exactly what I am looking at.

 

Chris,


Thanks again. My friend is at work so I'll have the build date this evening.




Barnter, I've been thinking about getting SDD for my car. Not that it needs it. There are just too many versions on ebay and for free download to choose from. The ones on ebay go from $40 to $2,000 (with subscription). Subscription for what? Thought SDD is a stand alone module.

 

Chris,


Build date is Oct 2003.


Thanks again!

 

Khello, getting the DTC's is next step to making progress. Regarding SDD, there are many versions and much disinformation out there. Early versions are good for the x-type.

 

Khello, ok, I looked at the diagrams for the car. You have to imagine all the modules I am going to reference having 2 wires coming in on one side and also have 2 wires leaving on the other side to the next module. So, in your case, what you have is from the PATS module (what senses the key) to the instrument cluster, on to the J-gate, on to the A/C-Radio, then on to the Tranny computer (TCM), and finally to the engine computer (ECU/ECM). So, now the question comes, where is the data getting lost. This is where the codes are going to come in to play. If you find that you can't get any communication with the code reader and the car, then this kinda confirms that you have a bad CAN network between the instrument cluster and the ECU. This is where the dealership level computer would make things a lot easier as you would then be able to access each of the modules I mentioned above and see if they are talking. You would find at some point a module would not be talking, meaning that the link between it and the last module that was able to talk with the SDD computer is bad and you atleast are now down to 2 plugs and a set of wires that are bad.

Now, because you got water inside the passenger compartment, this leads me back to the odds that your problem probably lies between the radio and the TCM or the TCM and the ECM. This is where one of the things I will recommend is to pull the plug on the TCM and specifically look at pins 12 and 33 (data to/from the radio-A/C) and pins 13 and 34 (data to/from the ECU/ECM). What you are first looking for is simply whether they are wet. if they are, then using a hair dryer on low heat or compressed air to dry the pins is going to be the first step. Next, look at the pins and see if they are nice and shiny or if they have a dull, tarnished look. They should be bright and shiny. If they are dull/tarnished, then you will want to take a very small screw driver or an exacto knife and gently rub the pins to pull the tarnish/dullness off. With data lines, you would be amazed as to what a little bit of tarnish can do to the signal.

With all the connectors back together, I want you to try something. Get a good charge on the battery. Now, get into the driver's seat and depress the TRIP button on the end of the turn signal stalk. Keep holding it in. Now, turn the key to the RUN position with the TRIP button depressed. After about 3 seconds, you should see the instrument cluster say "Engineering TEST". Release the TRIP button.

At this point, depress the trip button 13 times. As you get close to the 13th press, be watching the message center. You are looking for the message center to say "DTC XXXX" where XXXX is going to be 4 characters. I am not interested in those. You may need to press the TRIP button 1 more time to reach this point. With the Message center at "DTC XXXX", press the TRIP button once more. The message center should now say "E 0000" (meaning that the car is traveling at 0.0 MPH). If you see "E ----", then this is telling me that we have a problem with the CAN bus. If you got "E 0000", then depress the TRIP button 3 more times. The message center should now say "T 0000" (or the engine RPM is 0000 RPM). If it indicates "T ----" but had "E 0000", then you have a problem with the ECM. Finally, depress the TRIP button 15 more times (roughly) til you see the message center say "TRN -X" where the X is going to be either a 0, 1, or -. 0 would indicate that your tranny computer sees no issues, a 1 would indicate that your tranny sees some internal fault and may not shift correctly (check DTC codes for more info) and if you are getting a -, then this is indicating that your tranny computer is not talking at all. Having a 0 is ideal which would mean that if you are getting the "T ----" message too, then your problem is the wiring between the TCM and the ECM. If you are getting a "TRN -1" message with "T ----", then odds are you have an internal fault in the TCM. If you are getting "TRN --", then odds are you have a bad wire between the A/C-radio and the TCM.

Hopefully this will get you down to atleast a module and a general idea of what the problem is.

On a side note, odds are, the water that got into the passenger area is because the filter in the cowl (just in front of the windshield) on the passenger side came loose and allowed water to get into the A/C system and then all over the inside of the car. So, do not forget to fix that as you are figuring out this problem.

 

Chris,


Thank you so much! I'll report back soon.


Thanks again,


Mo

 

Finally got around to reading the codes off the instrument cluster. Got "T--" and "TRN-1". My OBDII scanner couldn't pull any codes, it displayed a "Cannot Connect to ECM" error.


The TCM pins didn't look corroded, but I cleaned them prior to running diagnostics. I pulled the TCM out after I got those codes and checked for evidence of water intrusion on the circuit board, no sign of shorting or even dried water.


FYI, there were several DTC XXXX codes as I was scrolling through to E XXXX.

 

Khello, you will always have those codes. They are pretty much found on every car. One of them was probably 9611 or something really close. Forget the other one that every car seems to have.

From what you are telling me, it would appear that you have a bad TCM. The TRN-1 says that there is a transmission fault. Since the CAN bus goes through the TCM, that would explain why the ECU cannot be reached. Now, before you start buying a new TCM, do a quick check. Remove the plug and look at the pins. Make sure that 1) they are all straight (not folded over 90 degrees) and 2) they are all there. I know this sounds like a Captain Obvious thing, but in a lot of cases, especially when someone not familiar with electronics, these sorts of things can happen very easily and not be seen. But, if all the pins look good, then odds are you will need a new TCM.

 

Khello, you might also want to check the battery's voltage with a meter.