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Speedometer Problem

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Old 01-11-2017, 05:24 PM
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Default Speedometer Problem

Guys,
So I possible found yet another problem with the speedometer on my XE, it consistently reads 4 mph above the actual speed. When it shows 64 I am actually driving 60mph. Installed 2 apps on my phone to confirm this, I also tried both apps in my two other cars and the reading was spot on with the car. Is this a problem or perhaps intentional? My biggest concern is can this actually affect the odometer reading? I can't say this for sure as there are so many variables but the few trips I made it seems like the car is putting on an extra 1 to 2 miles for each trip to and from work (1 or 2 miles each way). I have done the numbers with my previous cars and it was 22 miles each way, the same is shown on my phone GPS. In the Jag the couple times I checked I put on 22 or 23 miles and I tried to go shortest route possible so I am pretty confident something is wrong. The Jag's GPS actually shows 21 mile trip vs 22 of my phone so there are discrepancies but it still does not feel right. Can the speedometer reading affect the odometer ? I am not sure if they are tied in together.
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Old 01-11-2017, 05:26 PM
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my bad with the Jag I seem to put on 23 to 24 miles each way.
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RaffiNJ View Post
my bad with the Jag I seem to put on 23 to 24 miles each way.
It is the same with my car. The speedometer reads 3-4 mph higher than the actual speed at 60-65mph. It is definitely less at lower speeds.

I think odometers work off actual rotations of the wheel. Or at least that is how they used to work.
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Old 01-12-2017, 12:56 PM
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Tried looking online and general consensus seems to be that if speedometer is off then odometer is as well. I am sure it is affected as I can clearly see the car is putting on more miles for the same distance. 3 different GPS units (including the JAG) are showing the correct distance, my other two cars are traveling the same shorter distance and yet the Jag puts on a mile or two more. Mine is pretty consistant being 3 or 4 (mostly 4) over even at lower speeds but at lower speeds its tougher to keep track as usually you change speeds often.
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Old 01-12-2017, 06:29 PM
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Pretty much all cars are that way and always have been. Owners were unaware as GPS didn't exist.

Vehicle certification rules that that a speedo must never under indicate the speed of the vehicle and instead must be spot on, or over indicate the speed up to a certain %.

Since it would be uneconomical for an OEM to make a speedo that's 100% accurate at all speeds throughout the entire tire life of a vehicle, the units typically over indicate.
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Old 01-12-2017, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Mikey View Post
Pretty much all cars are that way and always have been. Owners were unaware as GPS didn't exist.

Vehicle certification rules that that a speedo must never under indicate the speed of the vehicle and instead must be spot on, or over indicate the speed up to a certain %.

Since it would be uneconomical for an OEM to make a speedo that's 100% accurate at all speeds throughout the entire tire life of a vehicle, the units typically over indicate.
I clearly stated my other two cars are spot on so it sounds like your assumption is wrong. It looks like it depends on manufacturer. It furthermore should be illegal for the odometer to get wrong readings especially since it is clearly made to favor the dealers.
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Old 01-12-2017, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey View Post
Pretty much all cars are that way and always have been. Owners were unaware as GPS didn't exist.

Vehicle certification rules that that a speedo must never under indicate the speed of the vehicle and instead must be spot on, or over indicate the speed up to a certain %.

Since it would be uneconomical for an OEM to make a speedo that's 100% accurate at all speeds throughout the entire tire life of a vehicle, the units typically over indicate.
it almost seems like it's a European thing to manipulate their speedometer/odometer. Plently other American and Asian car owners seem to find their speedometers are spot on.
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Old 01-12-2017, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RaffiNJ View Post
I clearly stated my other two cars are spot on so it sounds like your assumption is wrong. It looks like it depends on manufacturer. It furthermore should be illegal for the odometer to get wrong readings especially since it is clearly made to favor the dealers.

Maybe they're spot on today, but if you were to install brand new tires (larger diameter than worn out tires) your speedo would under indicate. This is clearly out of spec as per international agreement:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedo...nal_agreements

  • The indicated speed must never be less than the actual speed, i.e. it should not be possible to inadvertently speed because of an incorrect speedometer reading.
  • The indicated speed must not be more than 110 percent of the true speed plus 4 km/h at specified test speeds. For example, at 80 km/h, the indicated speed must be no more than 92 km/h.
My Jag speedo is pretty accurate when I have new tires. Once they're worn, it over indicates by about 6-8 km/hr. All my cars are like that as well as SWMBOs.

Not sure why you've got your shorts in a twist about the distance error. What's the chances it would favour a dealer?
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Old 01-12-2017, 08:44 PM
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My Ftype is fairly accurate, maybe a mile an hour under the indicated speed at around 60, yet my XE is about 3. Both new tires.
So the XE is set up more conservatively than the F.
Lawrence
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Old 01-12-2017, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey View Post
Maybe they're spot on today, but if you were to install brand new tires (larger diameter than worn out tires) your speedo would under indicate. This is clearly out of spec as per international agreement:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedo...nal_agreements
  • The indicated speed must never be less than the actual speed, i.e. it should not be possible to inadvertently speed because of an incorrect speedometer reading.
  • The indicated speed must not be more than 110 percent of the true speed plus 4 km/h at specified test speeds. For example, at 80 km/h, the indicated speed must be no more than 92 km/h.
My Jag speedo is pretty accurate when I have new tires. Once they're worn, it over indicates by about 6-8 km/hr. All my cars are like that as well as SWMBOs.

Not sure why you've got your shorts in a twist about the distance error. What's the chances it would favour a dealer?
How ? very simple... if you have extra miles on the car and go over your mileage allowance then you have to pay the dealer a penalty. The speedometer itself (even though it is a problem to me) is not the real issue here, its the fact that car is getting fake miles put on it. I am getting half a mile extra on this care compared to my other two for every six driven. The car is brand new so the tires are new, from what you are saying it will get even worse when tires get worn.
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Old 01-12-2017, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey View Post
Maybe they're spot on today, but if you were to install brand new tires (larger diameter than worn out tires) your speedo would under indicate. This is clearly out of spec as per international agreement:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedo...nal_agreements
  • The indicated speed must never be less than the actual speed, i.e. it should not be possible to inadvertently speed because of an incorrect speedometer reading.
  • The indicated speed must not be more than 110 percent of the true speed plus 4 km/h at specified test speeds. For example, at 80 km/h, the indicated speed must be no more than 92 km/h.
My Jag speedo is pretty accurate when I have new tires. Once they're worn, it over indicates by about 6-8 km/hr. All my cars are like that as well as SWMBOs.

Not sure why you've got your shorts in a twist about the distance error. What's the chances it would favour a dealer?
wait I am not sure what you mean by under indicate? from the way I see it the Jag is over indicating and it has brand new tires, so why would my other two cars under indicate with new tires?
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Old 01-12-2017, 10:15 PM
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I don't think what you say has any validity to it. I stated I compared all my cars with gps and app speedometers, they are spot on with the old tires. The speed of the car would not change with different tires on those devices as they are not influenced by the tire. All those devices show exactly the same speed as my other two cars. Additionally, the tires on those car are fairly new.
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulmur View Post
My Ftype is fairly accurate, maybe a mile an hour under the indicated speed at around 60, yet my XE is about 3. Both new tires.
So the XE is set up more conservatively than the F.
Lawrence
you are sayings your XE is 3 miles slower then what the car actually shows? if that is the case then its similar to mine which is about 4.... there are so many theories and stories here I am getting lost and confused with all this mumbo jumbo lol..... I am going to take it to the dealer to see if they fix it. Point is this is not right no matter what anyone says, the speed is not as big a deal to me but the fact that the odometer is getting extra miles on it is.
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Old 01-13-2017, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by RaffiNJ View Post
wait I am not sure what you mean by under indicate? from the way I see it the Jag is over indicating and it has brand new tires, so why would my other two cars under indicate with new tires?
I guess you've got a leased car and are trying not to go over the contract limits but not give it back with unused miles. Not much point debating further, so best you go off to the dealer. Good luck.

If a speedo is dead accurate with worn tires, it will under indicate with new tires. They will be slightly larger in diameter than worn tires so the car will physically go further/faster with each revolution. The speedo might indicate 60 but the car will be going faster than 60. Not permitted under the regs.
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Old 01-13-2017, 09:45 AM
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This may sound odd but the dealer just told me this about Jaguar wheels and tire setups.

I am swapping out my stock 20's for Jaguar 19 Venoms for winter months and they said they have to recalibrate the car ( Not just TPMS) for the wheels and tires each season I swap them.

So is it possible that all 3 wheel sizes offered by Jaguar on the XE need a different calibration which sounds very silly to me? They offer 17-18-19-20 inch wheels for the models of the XE and at a quick search I see there is a slight difference in overall rolling height which should equate to the slight/tiny MPH difference seen.
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Old 01-13-2017, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by BigCat09 View Post
This may sound odd but the dealer just told me this about Jaguar wheels and tire setups.

I am swapping out my stock 20's for Jaguar 19 Venoms for winter months and they said they have to recalibrate the car ( Not just TPMS) for the wheels and tires each season I swap them.

So is it possible that all 3 wheel sizes offered by Jaguar on the XE need a different calibration which sounds very silly to me? They offer 17-18-19-20 inch wheels for the models of the XE and at a quick search I see there is a slight difference in overall rolling height which should equate to the slight/tiny MPH difference seen.
It actually sounds about right if you think about. The larger tire will cover more distance at every revolution and confuse speedometer/odometer that is not adjusted.

Circumference of a tire (assuming it is a perfect circle) would be π*D

For 18 inch tires, the diameter would be 18inches + sidewall height. Let's take rear tires for example. Sidewall height would be 40 (which indicates 40mm) 18 inch is the diameter of the rim which equals 457mm. Thus the diameter of a tire would be 457+2*40=537mm. Using that circumference formula above, we get that at every rotation, the rear tire travels 537mm*3.14=1,686mm

Doing the same for 20in rims gives us: 20 inches to mm => 508mm. We add sidewall height of 35mm and get 508 + 2*35mm =578 total. Thus, circumference would now be 578mm*3.14=1,815mm

So at every rotation, 20in tire will travel for ~13cm more. I would say that is the reason why speedometer and odometer need to be adjusted.


I hope I did the calculations correctly. I am no expert on this subject by any means.

Last edited by Demetre Gvaramia; 01-13-2017 at 01:08 PM.
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Old 01-13-2017, 01:23 PM
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I just use this to get the easy math for all my tires and wheel. Best site I have ever found and is spot on every time!

Miata Tire Calculator | Online Miata Tire Calculator Tool
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Old 01-14-2017, 08:56 AM
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The instrument cluster software is deliberately programmed to over estimate the speed at the dials, but the variance is set differently per market to meet different regulatory requirements. Mikey's Wikipedia link above sets out the requirements.

It is controlled via three separate settings (below). The values given here are the defaults for the UK:

Jaguar speedometer calibration - Market: Market 0 : 3.5% + 2kph
Jaguar speedometer calibration - KPH off-set: + 2.0kph
Jaguar speedometer calibration - Percentage scaling factor: 3.5%

The distance value recorded by the odometer is unadjusted and is a true indication of the actual distance traveled. Only the visual speedometer is affected by increasing the true figure by those settings.

(Note that the first is a combination of the latter two.)

The scaling factor can be set to 0, 2.5% or 3.5%.
The KPH off-set can be 0 or +2.0kph.
The market should be set to a matching combination.

Values are stored as bytes in the CCF data and can be changed with appropriate diagnostics software if desired.
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Old 01-16-2017, 07:35 PM
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Quite a definitive answer, thanks xdave

I did notice that the trip computer reading on my car was (impossibly) higher than the odometer reading when I picked up the car, by a few miles.

This lead me to believe that the trip computer may use the speedo reading for total distance while the odometer uses the correct total distance.

Either way the odometer reading is not inflated... no company in their right mind would want to deal with the legal headache I imagine that would create.
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Old 01-16-2017, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demetre Gvaramia View Post
It actually sounds about right if you think about. The larger tire will cover more distance at every revolution and confuse speedometer/odometer that is not adjusted.

Circumference of a tire (assuming it is a perfect circle) would be π*D

For 18 inch tires, the diameter would be 18inches + sidewall height. Let's take rear tires for example. Sidewall height would be 40 (which indicates 40mm) 18 inch is the diameter of the rim which equals 457mm. Thus the diameter of a tire would be 457+2*40=537mm. Using that circumference formula above, we get that at every rotation, the rear tire travels 537mm*3.14=1,686mm

Doing the same for 20in rims gives us: 20 inches to mm => 508mm. We add sidewall height of 35mm and get 508 + 2*35mm =578 total. Thus, circumference would now be 578mm*3.14=1,815mm

So at every rotation, 20in tire will travel for ~13cm more. I would say that is the reason why speedometer and odometer need to be adjusted.


I hope I did the calculations correctly. I am no expert on this subject by any means.
Not to be too much of a dork/know-it-all, but just to add to the database of knowledge...

I'm sure you cited "40mm" of sidewall because you know the tire size for the rear is P275/40R18 (for example), but that's not what the 40 means. The 40 means that the sidewall is 40% of the width of the tire. In this case, the width of the tire is 275mm, which means the sidewall height is 275x.40=110mm.

Carry on.
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