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Parker, thanks for the info about the starter and ECU fix. I can't open the starter Word file though. However, I do get a click from the starter relay so the problem is more a matter of coordination among the starter, fuel and ignition. However, already rules out the potential problem of the BPM, so it is more likely a problem of local wiring, or a new issue caused by the failed ECU or the replacement ECU that cannot override the immobilizer. Have emailed Andy for assistance but have yet to hear from him. Anyway, fully understood that this is not an easy catch. Problems pending investigation and solution are
(a) why would the previous ECUs all get corroded? I have no sunroof, and at least when the ECU that successfully rescued Rose from three years' coma in Feb 2017 had waterproof wrap. Mechanic said he noted that when putting in the ECU Feb 2017, he found rust on all metal surface under the dash and footwells. The external box of the auto-transmission ECU was badly rusted when removed. I too found the radio unit in the similar bad state.
(b) the "no start, engine hot" issue is still a mystery. Could be the starter cable, starter brushes, or the fuel vapour pressure control valve. However, the control valve is at the back near the tank, whereas a more rational suspicion is fuel rail affected by engine heat at the engine compartment.
(c) first and foremost before fixing the corroded connectors on the first ECU, the mechanic and I are still investigating the power supply to the ECU as this would explain the death signs of Rose upon turning of the key.
(d) Prior to this incident, my mechanic and I were fixing the oil leak from the oil plug inside the sandwich plate between the manual gearbox and the engine block. It was massive operation requiring removal of the starter, flywheel, gearbox and all nearby cables. All was well after re-assembling and car started every time when cold. It was after a test drive returning to the workshop for adjusting the handbrake cable that Rose failed to restart, symptoms were the same as "no start, engine hot" as described before. So I do not suspect that the latest "no-start, engine hot" has anything to do with the recent big fix needed by the replacement of the oil plug O-ring. The ECU corrosion only explained Rose's sudden death. There could be other contributory factors which are still unknown.
Just want to audit again the relay, fuse and grounding points that might impede the starting/ignition process. If it were the immobilizer, how can it be overcome? Have done the close all, lock-by-key-and-then-unlock rituals.
If you get a click of the starter relay and as it is after the BPM ( and its immobilization feature ) and rotary switch the circuit is good pending enough current goes through it . This would point to the starter brushes . There are new starter brushes available for the X308 and maybe the same ?
Is there a way to put jumper cables on the starter or close by ?
Is the starter grounded well ? Solinoid ?
( a ) Water gets in under the sheet metal seam between the right quarter panel and the sheet metal that is under the wiper trough . Seals up with bathtub silicone seal . That gap on mine was wide
The air conditioning plenum gets a gap as it snaps together on the front side allowing the moist air to be under the dash area and you get the surface rust like on mine . Tywraps may pull the plenum together or some heavy duct tape around the joint .
( b ) editing
( c ) There is a ECU controlled relay on the right side # 5 that powers group of sensors and the ECU unit itself get it's " first " power from somewhere before it can control that relay , never sure where ( found it , edit of this post coming with new pic with the wires colored in green through the troublesome Papa Indy 1 connector as the White / Pink wire at pin 4). Will have to dig up the conversation with Don B . My ECU controlled relay wires where damaged under the relay socket . This relay is the power source for all the fuel injectors as the ECU provides a timed ground for control . If you click on the pic it expands to see easier . Notice the EVAP valve can effect everything on the circuit .
It can be heat soak related
( d ) messed with the starter ground or power wires to the starter ?
In summation you need to get the engine rotation resolved 1st then the engine regulation later .Might not be a bad idea to clean up , replace as a whole , or jumper wire around with the White / Pink wire the Papa Indy 1 and 61 connector as many engine regulation wires go through both and they have a history of being corroded . The ECU controlled relay also has 2 wires that go through the Papa Indy 1 connector at pin 3 and 6 . You can simply remove the secondary air injector relay if it is faulting and grounding out the circuit .
It could be simply the inertia / crash switch is fickle and you can jumper with a paper clip on the connector on the 2 white wires .
The splices under the wiring harness wrapping could be corrosion suspect but mine where in good condition someone elses was not . Just follow a White / Pink injector wire to the splice
Last edited by Lady Penelope; 02-02-2018 at 09:21 AM.
I just clicked on "Reply" to type something and noticed Lady P had written exactly what I was going to say re the Starter Relay. If it is clicking that eliminates all the complexities before the relay (including any imobilisation concerns - I presume the check engine light is staying on).
You can swap the ECU controlled relay and see if that gets you positive results as a least intrusive try on the engine regulation . I cut out my Papa Indy 1 and 61 connector and spliced the wires with environmental waterproof splices . They looked bad on mine . If you need the wring out chart I have it when I did the job as the wire colors are hard to see . The stater relay control wire also goes through the Papa Indy 1 connector as that same White / Pink wire at pin 4 . This is not shown on the above wiring guide but is on the starter circuit figure 4.3
If you don't have the wiring guide for the 95 here it is and can be put on a disk for your engineer :
Here is an update. With key on ignition, fuel pump works, the starter has positive but no negative pulse, ignition relay works but there is no spark. Starter works with direct link so it is a power/signal issue. All EMS, ECU, starter, ignition, fuel relays and fuses are checked to be in order, unless my mechanic and I missed some spots not shown in Parker's posts above. ECU swapped back to the corroded but cleaned one, starting attempt's result is the same. VCM/IDS says Engine Control Module communication error; DTC 1621 emerged when using an Autolink scanner. According Jaguar literature, P1621 is "Control Module Long Term Memory Performance/Immobilizer Code Words Do Not Match". So I am inclined to think that it is either the immobilizer or the ECU is in error, hence failing to give permission to the starter and the ignition system. Am waiting for Andy's advice on ECU issues.
the starter has positive but no negative pulse ? I don't understand . Good that you tested the starter and rotates by jumping around it's control .
If you have starter relay clicking then it is not ECU immobilized on the starter ( only referencing this item )
Ignition relay works but there is no spark . Shouldn't get a spark until engine rotation . The 2 ignition relays ( there are 2 labeled as this ) do not put power to the coils but is a term used as you have ignition on to power up many fuses , see pic below . These 2 " King " relays are commanded on by the ignition switch providing the relay's control a ground . There are a total of 4 of these " King " relays , one in the corner of each fuse box and they are labeled with different names . Single power wire to all plugs goes though Papa Indy 1 pin 4 White / Pink wire and comes from fuse # 12 / 10 amp Right Engine fuse box . This fuse is not powered until the Right Engine fuse box ignition positive relay " King " is closed . This " King " relay is not closed until the relay control half is given a ground provided by the ignition switch .
I'll color in a wiring guide so it would be easier to see vs. my words .
Editing
Last edited by Lady Penelope; 02-03-2018 at 12:06 PM.
Let me clarify. Starter does not crank when turning key to ignition. Mechanic found starter itself otherwise functional when using jumping wires. He found that ground to starter has no current. He suspects that the starter is regulated by another relay somewhere that is not working or not giving permission. When he uses jumping wires to activate the starter, the starter cranks the engine but Coil #1 shows no spark. The ignition relay at engine right front clicks when turning the ignition key though. His conclusion is that the ECU is disabling starter and coils normal function either due to the immobilizer or circuit problem within the ECU itself.
OK let me research after some other work . Still later editing pic above not the one below .
Looking at the positive power to the starter in red color . You can check the rear engine compartment bulkhead terminal ( circled ) by removing the off center terminal stud's wire and seeing if the stud is loose . Then check on the positive battery post the black box that hangs over the side if the 2 fuses terminal studs ( circled ) are loose . Both of these items have a history of being loose and can be checked yourself .
On the negative or ground wire the only thing is the large ground strap nearby that may not be clean as it contacts the surfaces by removing the bolts . This may have been disturbed during the oil leak repair . The mounting of the starter may not be tight as well . It's a very hard bolt to get a tool on .
On the Starter Relay control in the blue color wire . Did you mention the starter relay clicks ? If it does click then the starter is not immobilized . Fuse # 12 / 10 amp right engine fuse box ( # 32 test point on the pic ) is powered when the ignition positive relay ( in the fuse box corner ) clicks by the ignition switch provided ground . The starter relay control gets its ground through the rotary switch through the BPM ( immobilizer controlled ) and the ignition switch .
The other wire colored green is provided power from fuse # 3 / 25 amp left Engine fuse box ( # 68 test point in the pic ) . The fuse is powered by the ignition positive control relay " King " in the corner of the box . Editing
The key is to see if the starter relay clicks as you turn the key and if not jiggle the shift handle as you modified this or put a jumper wire to ground at the BPM connector pin FC1 - 33 and lastly provide a ground at the ignition switch connector at pin FC54 - 1 on the car side of the connector .
I'm mixed up here , be back later , I'm back
Editing
Last edited by Lady Penelope; 02-04-2018 at 12:08 PM.
......On the Starter Relay control in the blue color wire. Did you mention the starter relay clicks ? If it does click then the starter is not immobilized.....
More clarification about the starter and starter relay: the mechanic thoroughly checked the starter relay with a multimeter and confirmed that the relay was in good working order. The starter is also confirmed in good working order, as use of jumping wire did get it cranking strongly. The mechanic found that the the starter lacked ground current upon key turning to ignition. He found the ignition relay working upon turning of the key ignition. So something is preventing power signal from reaching the starter, and as the starter does not work the engine does not turn and there is no spark.....
I got Andy's reply just now and we agree to take try to test Rose's two ECUs on other running X300s to see if they work properly on them. The idea is to test that the ECUs work or do not work on cars fitted with immobilizer. I shall update folks on my latest observations.
I'll finish the editing of the above post and see if there is something outside of the ECU that may have been missed and maybe you can check yourself . Other then the relay being in working order out in your hand testing with a meter does it click when installed in the car ? This would be a indicator that the immobilizer is not inhibiting the starter .
The relay can test in your hand with a meter but fail to carry enough current across the internal contacts inside to drive the device . This is important on the starter . This is known as a pitted contacts or a cat whisker or broken overcenter holding spring " floating " contacts . I've seen alot of these failures .
Last edited by Lady Penelope; 02-04-2018 at 12:29 PM.
Editing timed out . If you put pin 33 on the connector side to ground you would bypass the the ignition switch and the BPM . You would still have to rotate the key for the rest of the engine regulation . This would bypass the immobilizer inhibit if it is present .
Last edited by Lady Penelope; 02-04-2018 at 02:05 PM.
If you want to trick it to start , cut off some of the insulation on the starter relay control ground Green / Orange wire as it comes out from under the relay socket and give it a ground with the key in the run position .
If that doesn't work swap relays
If that doesn't work cut off some of the insulation on the starter relay control power source Brown / White wire and give it some power from one of the engine fuse box B + terminal post and try again with the key in run .
These 2 wires are low current control wires so no arcing hazard .
This will cut the 2 observed problems ( the other being spark ) in half .
I don't understand the no negative current comment but do check the suspected ground strap by the starter as well as all bolts tight on the starter mounting .
See if it will start with that and we'll go from there depending on your results .
Notice we're not looking at spark yet .
Last edited by Lady Penelope; 02-04-2018 at 10:36 PM.
Here is a little update. Tried ECU1 (that has no immobilizer-override function) on another XJR and the ECU and the car started right away and worked properly. This has confirmed that ECU1 is in order but failed to start Rose for unknown reasons. The possibilities are
(a) Rose is immobilized (and was so immobilized in the past), but ECU2 specially made by Andy was able to tell Rose to start without heeding the immobilization logic, and so when ECU2 was compromised due to oxidation of the connectors (and some pins missing upon disconnection), Rose failed to start. When replaced with ECU1 which does not deal with the immobilizer, Rose has no permission to crank and fire up.
(b) Rose is not immobilized, there are other unidentified issues blocking power supply to the starter and stopping the coils/spark plugs from producing spark.
So will have to try your suggestion to PIN33 (you meant the BPM but PIN33 appears in the upper as well as the lower connector) to ground and see if starter works with ECU2, and then go from there to tackle spark next. However, mechanic has tried direct grounding to get the starter to work before but there was no spark so I am afraid that spark is what we should be focusing on, and it may have some relationship with the "no start, engine hot" problem.
So will have to try your suggestion to PIN33 (you meant the BPM but PIN33 appears in the upper as well as the lower connector) to ground and see if starter works with ECU2, and then go from there to tackle spark next. However, mechanic has tried direct grounding to get the starter to work before but there was no spark so I am afraid that spark is what we should be focusing on, and it may have some relationship with the "no start, engine hot" problem.
Saw that with pin 33 and would have yo go with wire color being Red / Orange
The no spark may have to do with the key not in the run position as you focused on getting the starter to rotate by jumping . Or could have a ignition switch problem not providing the control ground to the King relays that give your engine regulation it's power . On the pin 3 of the ignition switch connector car side you would just give it a ground through pin 5 . The pin 1 you will have that covered NOT , you still give the BPM a ground by the direct jumpers on the relays control wires under the hood . The specific king relay for the spark power and not control is labelled ignition positive control in the right engine fuse box and you can feel for it to click . This doesn't mean the relay is any good but confirms it is getting it's control ground to provide power .
Editing through the day
Last edited by Lady Penelope; 02-07-2018 at 01:48 PM.
Notice how important the inertia switch is and to eliminate it just put a paperclip between the 2 white wires . This is not heat dependent on after the engine warms up , but is a easy try .
The ignition switch is something not heat dependent but may be intermittent and you're seeing it after you turn off the engine and the pin 1 to 5 ground is not good enough . My 1 to 5 is not very good and wavers as you read it with a meter .
Another way to look at the ignition switch is to look at the switch only side and see if it meets specifications . Earlier we were looking at tricking the car side of the connector and that can get messy but if you were to read the switch only it may show a fault . They don't last forever and they do fail . Easy check as the connector is under the lower steering column cover . The contacts in the switch will make more then 1 pole at a time so it gets confusing as you sort it out with a meter but you can simply ensure you have good contacts as you rotate the key on pins 1 - 4 to 5 . The 1 is the suspect one like on mine .
These above items are outside the ECU and it might be the ECU but the pin 33 to ground gets around that .
Check that all of your king relays are clicking including the one in the trunk as this fuse box powers the SCLU which inhibits the starting
To split the spark in half pull a coil connector and read for voltage with the key in the run position , this ensures you have power to the coils . Then on the other wire look for a momentary ground during engine rotation as this is the timed control provided by the ECU . You won't hurt the ECU in reading resistance with a meter .
Keep asking questions .
I wish I had better reference material for the ECU for future work
Last edited by Lady Penelope; 02-07-2018 at 01:47 PM.
Update:
(1) The new ECU that failed to start Rose was able to start another XJR, and the on-car ECU from that XJR was unable to start Rose.
(2) When connected to Rose, VCM/IDS was able to communicate with the ECU from the other XJR and produced 9 Engine DTCs and some DTCs in respect of other modules.
When reconnecting the corroded ECU to Rose after a good clean, the VCM/IDS returned an error message of [ERR 0xb].
(3) Prior to testing (1) and (2) above, the mechanic found the ECU harness connector also partially corroded (see Picture),
and traced the source of water and moisture travelling into the cabin from a little hole beside a rubber plug on the firewall (see picture)
He gave the affected part a good clean but was worried that poor connection would continue to inhibit transmission of car-start signals.
The previous ECU on Rose has died. A good ECU is able to communicate with Rose's engine management system, but may not be able to get her started probably due to the immobilizer and/or poor connections due to corrosion.
The 9 DTCs are: P0116 - Engine coolant temperature circuit range/performance problem P1158 - Lack of heated oxygen sensor switch, sensor indicates rich (Bank 2, Sensor 2) P1401 - Exhaust gas re-circulation valve position circuit malfunction P1409 - Exhaust gas re-circulation valve circuit malfunction P0413 – Secondary air injection switching valve open circuit P1621 – Engine control module engine immobilizer input circuit malfunction P0201 – Injection circuit malfunction cylinder 1 P1201 – Injection circuit open/short circuit cylinder 1 P1202 – Injection circuit open/short circuit cylinder 2
P1621 might suggest that Rose is immobilized. The others might partially explain the "no-start, engine hot" issue. Rose no longer has ERG and secondary pump so three such DTCs can be ignored.
Meanwhile, I shall try to look for good used ECU harness connectors from the breakyard, and seek Andy's help to tackle the immobilizer like before.
Last edited by Qvhk; 02-08-2018 at 09:11 PM.
Reason: Pictures added
02-01-2018, 06:28 PM
