subframe bushings
 

State safety/emission inspection time here and my XJR failed. The fella told me my front end was about to fall off, I laughed at him and asked if he was sh!@#ing me but he said it will not pass as there is some major clunking going on. I have heard it before and always thought it was the upper shock bushings but after putting it up in the air on my lift I can see where the front portion of the subframe seems to sag down once the wheels are free, looks like the rear subframe bushings are coming apart as well.

My question is it does look like a big job, not something I am entirely afraid to tackle but would kinda like to know how to go about and where to get the parts. Too bad I didn't catch it a few years back as I had the tranny and engine out while doing a swap, if I would have known about this problem I would have done it then but with only 54K on it at the time why would anyone think the subframe bushings would have gone bad so soon but so it is with Jags I hear.

Thanks

As there is not a huge market for them, the bushings are probably a dealer only part.

It's not unheard of, but not exactly common either.

WellI did the subframe bushings, got them all OEM, $100 for the front ones a piece and $40 a piece for the rears. Here's a few pics for your review. It went pretty smooth, also did the upper shock bushings whilst I was in the area.

This is my first time posting pics here so bear with me, the first is the engine support in place, the second with the subframe clear of the body and the third is the totally wasted front vee mounts.

with 58k on it, what did the last owner do to it? dirt track it? off road it?! Blimey! I would have gone with new engine mounts + bolts while in there.

chasman -
Looks like a daunting job. Is it necessary to get the subframe entirely down and out from under the car, or can you drop it just enough to slip new ones in? Any more pics?

it's a big job - the benefit of taking the subframe out is you can detail the ass off everything, and to do the rears dropping it out is the way to go. I'm stunned at the shape those bushes are in. It should be a revelation once back up and running. After a front geometry check of course.

Can you leave the rear mounts connected and just pivot the subframe down enough to swap in the front mounts?

Yes it feels much tighter, haven't had the alignment done yet but no more rotational forces clunking about when going over speed bumps. It is strange design, how the entire front end seems to float around on rubber bushings.

I do believe you could just do the fronts without pulling the rear bolts out, the subframe hinges down and clears everything just fine. I was actually surprised how easily it came apart, support the engine, remove the lower motor mount bolts, remove the calipers and hang them off the fenderwells (no need to crack open any brake lines), undoing the shocks, disconnecting the steering shaft into the steering rack, disconnecting the pressure hose from the bottom of the PS pump, disconecting the ABS harnesses and undoing the power steering return line (there is a quick disconnect right around the alternator vicinity)

Is it obvious where the lift points are for the engine? And is the engine support a common variety or something special? Thx.

There are eyes cast into the front of each cylinder head (or intake, I can't remember just now) for lifting purposes.

The support bar is an OTC 1725 which I borrowed from a friend who does a lot of front wheel drive cars. I could have rigged something up if I didn't have the access to it pretty easily though, thinking about maybe using some deep Unistrut, all thread rod and blocks of wood. Having the tool made it a snap. You want to undo the lower motor mount bolts and then slightly lift the engine to get the weight off the subframe, makes it easier to reinstall it as you bolt the subframe back into position and then lower the engine back down onto it.

It always amazes me that the sheet metal inside the fenders along the sides of the hood is strong enough to take the engine weight without buckling or denting. But evidently it is, since these engine hoists are used for all kinds of cars.

Doing this thanks for the info - very helpful.
 

Just doing this now.

Dont believe you could just drop down the front of the subframe as you nee quite a lot of room to work on the subframe mounts. The bolts on mine were torks and needed to get a long one in, not easy.

Also the rear mounts looked good on my car. When the subframe was dropped they were wrecked not obvious when the subframe still in the car.

Jaguar say you have to dismantle the whole subframe and put the frame in a press to fit the rear bushes! How mad is that???????

Cut them out with an electric hacksaw gointa make a tool to fit new rear mounts tomorrow.

Peter

Made a tool for the rear bushes which pushed them in easily without dismatling the subframe or using a press.

Only had time for a quick drive after the job was finished as wifey had made tea and being late is not an option.....

First impressions are the car is very, very quiet in fact I can hear a rattle from the back door that I never heard before and the whine of the supercharger is much more noticeable - pleasantly so!

Also seems steady under braking which was unpleasant before.

Peter

voodooman -
Let the rest of us in on the secret! How about a picture or two of your homemade bushing tool?

Bushing tool
 

Hi

will post a photo tonight, sadly got to work today :icon_duck:

Peter

"Work will be the ruin of the leisure class."

Yep it stops me having a mint car.

Here are some pictures I took when changing the bushes in my rear subframe in a PDF you can download http://www.software4biz.co.uk/downlo...rameBushes.pdf

Any questions, please ask.

The car drives nicely now, much quieter. Still seems to wander about. I've seen others comment on how vague the steering is.

Funny as I remember when the XJ40 came out how direct the steering felt compared to the original XJ6. I also remember the XJS HE being very positive in that regard. There is nothing loose now in the steering, I have rebuilt lots of PAS racks in the past and mine looks ok.

Peter :D

From your pictures, you used a sawzall to cut the center out of the rear mount, cutting through the rubber. But then how did you drive or push out the outer part of the rear mount?

Also, roughly how far did you have the front of your car up in the air, to do this work?

That'll be the tires, these cars are ultra picky about them, fit only asymmetric tread patterns

A bit of detail
 

Hi

I sawed out the centre rubber, then I cut through the metal ring of the bush. I did this against the solid metal of the frame (towards the front) so as not to weaken the mounting if i went a little too far, then I simply knocked it in with a hammer and chisel. Cleaned up afterwards with a half round file.

I have a low garage and a tilting ramp I bought used 14 years ago. If you look, the car is at an angle. The ramp lifts vertically 1 metre and tilts forwards and backwards.

The tressle I made stands on axle stands is about 500mm/20inch high and i tilted the car up to about 1400mm/4ft6inches in the area over the wheels.

You could have the subframe a lot lower about wheel height and could lift it with two high lift jacks and two tall axle stands under the jacking points.

Peter

Voodooman and Chasman,

Thanks for posting the photos and details of dropping the subframe.

I will be doing this on my XJR as soon as the weather warms up a bit. I don't have access to a garage large enough to do it inside.

I have already bought the vee mounts, perhaps I should get the rear mounts as well, they look ok on the car but it's difficult to tell.

I don't get any noises from the front suspension, but the car definitely wanders and seems too keen to follow lines in the road. There is definitely slack in one of the vee mounts if not both.

Tyres are assymmetric P zero Pirellis as per original spec.

Brian.

Hi

Get the back ones mine looked ok until I dropped the frame and they were wrecked out of sight .

My car wanders but I think the tracking is now out. The car looks different and is definetly higher at the front. Now also super quiet on the road . My rear drive joints are gone and that's my next job. On holiday at the moment hoping to do it when I get home.

Peter

So i did this about five thousand miles ago. Now when i brake hard the front suspension dives to the point it has pulled the lower radiator hose off. Any ideas?
I suppose it could be that the front subfame mount on the passenger side is loose, or broken, but I can't imagine it is. The engine does not rock when I apply throttle with the brake on so I know it is not motor mounts, which I just replaced. I replaced all bushings and mounts a few months ago, and don't think this problem was happening then, but I don't drive the car, my kid does. I discovered an issue when he got a cel, which was caused by the pcv pipe coming off the induction pipe. Also the expanded part of the induction pipe had holes in it from being over stretched. Then the lower radiator hose came loose. Clearly, the engine and front suspension dives, and the body rises upon heavy braking.....Help?

I really need some help with this one. Today I did another full underbody inspection, using a jack to push up on suspension components, looking to see if the front subframe mounts were showing any movement. None. The engine moves with respect the engine compartment probably four or five inches down under heavy braking. From the drivers seat it appears as if the front end climbs four or five inches. Please, I am sure this is a no brainer, but I seem to be unable to solve this.

Everything is tight, the motor mounts are sound, and all the parts have less than five thousand miles on them.

Lots of readers remember the titles of threads that they have reviewed and have no interest in following. That means less readers would see your thread than you might expect.

Therefore, it is best to start a new thread with a descriptive title and full information.

John,

I'm no expert on the front subframe mountings, but as far as I know the only points of contact between the front subrame / engine assembly and the rest of the vehicle body are the two vee mounts and the two rear mounts.

So if the body really is moving 4 or 5 inches with respect to the subframe, then either these mount are worn / faulty, or the engine mounts themselves are worn / faulty. I suppose the mounting at the rear of the gearbox might be worn so that the engine / gearbox is actually tilting on acceleration /deceleration, but I would have thought that the front mountings would have minimised that. I once had a similar problem on my Ford Granada (Merkur Scorpio to you in America) but that also resulted in a loud bang from beneath the floor of the car.

One more thought, are your rear brakes working correctly? Perhaps the rear brakes are not operating so the whole of the braking effort is being put on the front wheels, with the rest of the car trying to 'overtake' the front axles? Perhaps worth checking out? Note that the handbrake (parking brake) works differently so that might be ok even if the main rear brakes aren't.

Brian.

Thanks Brian,
So I am going to assume that the mounts I just replaced are broken. I am going to try to replace the mounts again, and have already ordered them. I looked at the alldata, and note that they say you can replace the mounts without removing the rear bushings. When I did this before, I replaced everything, so I am familiar with the subframe. The alldata instructions say I have to comress the springs mid suspension. I have to say, I don't know why. I would guess that I would not need to. Any thoughts?

John,

I'm not sure why the springs need to be compressed, surely you will be lowering the whole subframe away from the body and the suspension is just part of that. Perhaps it is to make it easier to remove the damper top mountings from the inner wings? Or to fit them back afterwards?

When you did your under-car inspection the other day, did you raise the car using a jack under the body or main chassis rails? If you did, I would have expected the engine and subframe to drop much like you say is happening on braking, if the vee mounts have failed.

Brian.

Front subframe rear mounts
 

Hey Jag owners. I'm replacing also the front subframe rear mounts as the old ones were totally destroyed (XJR made in 2001). Before removing them I marked the rubber cut-outs position. I bought the new ones from British Parts (listed as MNC2370AC)
Subframe Mount Front - MNC2370AC | Jaguar XJ8 X308 - XJR | Jaguar | British Parts UK

here is a better picture:
JAGUAR Front Round Mount XJ40 X300 X308 *BRAND NEW* - JAGworks
http://www.jagwebworld.com/wp-conten.../MNA237O11.jpg

today I discovered it is actually MNA2370AA and fits older X300, some sites tell it fits also X308. They have rubber cut-outs in a different position so that my marking on the subframe is not usable anymore.

Do you think MNA2370AA can be used instead of MNC2370AC (outer diameter is the same)? If yes how do I align it?

what way are the cut outs different? They should physically fit...maybe query Britishparts, you want the correct bushes....

did you have a look here?
Genuine Jaguar Parts and Jaguar Accessories for Classic Jaguars from Jaguar Classic Parts UK

I always use oem bushes, but in some cases these suppliers like David Manners, British parts use the same maker, for instance LemForder

what way are the cut outs different?

to see the difference look here MNC2370AC:
Google Image Result for http://partsforjaguar.co.uk/product_images/m/616/MNC2370AC__85462.JPG

and compare it to MNA2370AA:
Google Image Result for http://www.justjagsuk.com/uploads/images/1200/No10104_MNA2370AA.jpg


British Parts answered:
"...we are showing the bush mna2370aa is superceded to the mnc2370ac. These bushes are the same and are suitable for both models..."

But both parts ARE NOT the same. Do you think it is worth to install them?

Hi Mindugs,

My advice would be not to use the bushes supplied by British Parts.

I too ordered a pair of the correct part number (MNC2370AC) bushes from British Parts about a year ago, they sent me two different bushes, the size looked similar but the hole was in the middle, not offset. After some investigation by me I deduced that they had sent me was MHC2370 which was for the older XJ cars.

After a couple of 'phone calls I managed to convince them that they were wrong and returned them. They sent me what look like the correct bushes as replacements but like yours the slots are in a different position to the originals.

I didn't get around to fitting them yet but will be buying the genuine articles from one of the other suppliers instead.

British Parts may be correct in their statement that the MNA bush has been supeseded by the MNC bush, but the reverse isn't necessarily true and it appears that they have sent you the older version. Why go to the bother to fit the suspect ones when the correct bushes are available? You wouldn't want to do it twice!

Brian.

Front subframe rear mounts - wrong at British Parts
 

Thank you for your opinion. I already told British Parts I return their parts and have ordered another pair at Rimmer Brothers. What is strange British Parts tells white=yellow (states that two different parts are the same):icon_biggrin:

Other forum members, be aware of this if you decide to buy these mounts at British Parts! Until this case I have purchased many spare parts from them without any misunderstandings and was very happy with their service and parts quality.

I have experienced the same, mounts have cut outs in a different place...

Fitted them anyway, I will report if there is any change or unusual handling effect.

I will be doing my 'V' mounts in a couple of weeks, along with the rear mounts. Some of the pictures I have seen of the rear mounts, they appear to have the hole in them offset from centre, and some look to have the hole in the centre. I assume that the hole is central as I have not read about it being offset. Could someone confirm that the bolt holes in the bushes are in the centre of the bush. Thanks Bill W.

I can cinfirm that mine bushings were with the bolt holes NOT in the center. Thats why it is very important that you mark and also make a picture of the positioning of the old bushings before you remove them. Otherwise you might not be able to insert the bolts when mounting back the subframe.

Thanks mindugs, I'm slowly gathering all the information I can about the problems and solutions. The V8 in question is a 2001 Sovereign. Is it possible to determine whether my car has central or offset bushes before dismantling??

Hi Heliwilly. I'm not sure if you could see that before dismantling. But try it. Maybe you could remove bolts at botch sides and let a bit down the full subframe rear end (together with the engine) but with the front wheels off the ground.

Subframe Bushes
 

The time has come to bite the bullet and get these 'V' mounts and rear bushes done.
I can see that people have replaced the 'V' mounts by just lowering the subframe enough to remove and replace the 'V' mounts.
Is it possible remove, and press back in, the rear mounts without disconnecting/draining the power steering pipework?
Looking at it, it does seem possible, but would like confirmation.
Thanks Bill W

Subframe Bushes
 

I am trying to find the size of the socket needed to undo the rear bush mounting Nut and Bolt. I have a socket set that goes to 22mm and a 30mm socket I got for a Citroen. The 30mm fits but is slack.
They are torqued to 131Nm to 185Nm-- 96 to 136 Ft Lbs. What length of lever is needed to remove these???
I have the Disc version of the Manual, (2,400 pages). Any idea if the bolt/spanner size is mentioned anywhere?


Thanks Bill W.