I am new to this forum so here it goes.
Wife has a 2000 XJ8 over the weekend she comes in and says the car wont start and is making a funny sound. I go out there and try to turn it over and it is making a whining sound and a little grinding but wont start. I had the same sounds and issue with my Chevy trunk so I think started.
I check the battery and it is putting out 12.55 so I know that is right. Jack it up and remove the starter, not as easy as it sounds so after 6 hours on the top bolt I get it out....finally. I inspect it and the wheel does not have any shavings or look of damage. The next day I take it to the parts store to have it tested. The it was running on very low amps. I dont remember what they said it was plus he said it was very quiet and should have been louder so I replace it, in the rain, on a driveway, soaking wet. The things we do.
I get everything back up and in there looking good. Go to crank it over and it is still doing the same thing!
Now you can hear the starter clicking on but still making the same noise and not starting.
I cant think of anything else it could be.
other things I have done to it.
Replaced thermostat, belt, alternator, battery, multiple fuses, flushed radiator, new tires, new brakes. All this in 6-8 months.

Any ideas would be great!

Thank you,
Martin

 

It sounds to me like you may not be getting a good power connection between the battery and starter. A couple things I would check before going much further:
-false bulkhead connector where the battery cable comes from the back (right upper engine compartment, near/underneath the toolbox). Make sure it is tight and clean. It must have no corrosion as the connector is a bit weak design.
-If the above is OK, try the engine ground strap, under the car near the transmission, connects the engine to body. The original version is a braided cable that can will cause unusual problems if compromised.

If these are not the culprit, others probably can chime in with suggestions. Let us know how it goes.

 

Next time this happens, use two long screwdrivers, and jump the starter directly. My bet (and I bet my lunch money on it).....your ground is weak or missing. Ground the starter, and report back.

 

The best way to confirm that the electrical system is the fault is to connect a voltmeter from a good chassis ground position to the solenoid power input stud. You should maintain above about 9.5 volts while cranking.

Without hearing your particular whining and grinding, I am only guessing, but you might have knocked some teeth off the flywheel. Now that you have it back together, the best way to confirm or deny this hypothesis is to turn the crank about 1/4 turn from the front (26 mm socket, I believe) and try to crank it.

 

Thank you all,
I replaced the ground to the body just in case.
Checked the bulkhead ground and it looks fine and tight.
Checked the power to the starter and it is I believe 10-11.
I took the starter out again (I'm getting good at it) and checked the fly wheel and it looks perfect, missing no teeth.
Took the starter in and tested OK.
I had my buddy over and he was under while I cranked it and he said it sounded like the starter tries to engage but as soon as it tries it goes back in. Sorry I can't remember the name of the part that engages the fly wheel.
When we had it tested it came out and worked fine.
We have checked every fuse and even thought it was the starter security lock but no go.
Any other places to check?

 

Tomorrow I am going to ground the starter directly to the body.

 

Well, maybe you have a bad Bendix gear on the new starter also. If the starter has that voltage (measured from the starter case to the power post) as it is trying to start, then you pretty much do not have anything wrong with the fuses, relays, security lock? or anything but the starter a mechanical problem.

 

Bendix gear!!!! That is what it is called!
We thought the same thing so when we took the new starter down to Oriellys they tested it and you can see the Bendix come out and engage correctly. We had two other guys there look at it and it is fine. The Bendix when installed appears to be coming out then quickly going back in not giving it enough time to engage the flywheel.

 

Update:
New starter installed, new ground on starter to body.
New ground from frame to block
Now when I go to start it I just get a click, no whining, no cranking, nothing.
Battery is a 12.45
Starter in off position is at 12.33
Starter in on position is at 10.8-11

I bought an OBD2 tester First I got P1111, I cleared that code now all I get is P1000.

I am at my end with this car. Any ideas today otherwise it's going to the shop which always cost me an arm and a leg

 

Your codes are System Reset, and will go away after the car is driven for a while, nothing to do with the starter.

Now,....let's talk about electricity. IF the starter works on the bench (put in the vice, and positive 12V + negaive is supplied, and the thing works as it should, then it HAS TO work in the car IF it has positive and ground (which you said that it does). The ONLY other component involved in the starter operation is the ignition switch! To determine if it's the switch, you go under the car, and "zap" the starter. Two screwdrivers, and the thing NEEDS to run just like it did on the bench (you basically bypass all the relays, fuses, switches, etc.). If it runs by being zapped, it's the ignition switch that is bad (I am assuming here that you already eliminated the possibility of a bad starter relay).

At that point, I would disassemble the steering column, pull the switch out, and cross the wires (just like you are trying to steal it!), and see if it starts that way, if it does,.....you need the new switch, .....if it doesn't,....you need to trace all the wires from the switch to the relay, and down to the starter. A small multimeter will do nicely here.

Electrical problems can be frustrating, but ALL electrical circuits are basically simple,.....positive, negative, and a switch. Armed with a multimeter, and a LOT of patience, you WILL find the problem.

 

Martin....judging by your figures, I would suggest you have a battery that is below par and not providing enough ooomph to the starter.
Your description of the Bendix gear coming out of engagement suggests this.
There is not enough current available to keep the solenoid emergised which holds the bendix drive in engagement....remembering that these starters are of the pre-engaged type not the old style inertia drive.
I would seriously suspect the battery...get it load tested, it should be normally 12.7 to 13.2....being at 12.33 is waaaay too low....how old is the battery and when was the last time it had a proper charge with a charger.
The correct type for these cars is a sealed Calcium 100A/hr 880CCA mother.
90% of these faults are caused by an undernourished or wrong type of battery.

 

OP said he has a new battery in the car.

 

I have replaced the battery 3 times over the last year. When I bought the car, When I replaced the Alternator, and when she let it sit for two weeks without driving it. Luckily I have a warranty on it so I am going to take it in today. Here is the one I have in it now.

• 12 Volt
• Cold Cranking Amps: 760
• Cranking Amps: 900
• Reserve Capacity: 185 Minutes
• 900 CCA

 

Let me know what you come up with. Interesting to hear about.

Bobby

 

I've had the spring on the bendix fail and it tests fine in the parts store but not in the car. The gear part was easily moved by shaking and or finger pressure.

 

You've checked the ground. How about the positive side? The false bulkhead joint is notorious for failure.

If the battery is strong, and you are drawing down to 11'ish but not whining, then the bendix drive is a suspect for jamming.

 

Looking at the circuit diagram for the starting & charging circuit, the power for the starter solenoid comes from a different route to the main starter supply.

When you turn the ignition key to the 'start' position, this closes a relay which supplies 12v to the starter solenoid connection. The starter is internally wired so that when the solenoid connection becomes live, the following 3 things happen:

1) The starter motor begins to rotate slowly

2) The solenoid pulls the slowly-rotating starter pinion into engagement with the flywheel

3) The solenoid fully closes & bridges the internal high-current contacts to supply full power to the starter so it rotates at engine cranking speed.

The main high-current supply to the starter comes via the false bulkhead connector from the High Power Protection Module in the boot, in front of the battery. This is basically a bloody great fuse rated a several hundred amps.

The supply to the starter solenoid comes from a different route, so I'm wondering if the main High Power Protection Module in the boot has blown it's big fuses & not supplying the full cranking current to the starter motor?

This would mean that when you try & start the engine, the solenoid still receives it's power & the motor rotates slowly as it's pulled into engagement with the flywheel teeth. However, when the solenoid closes fully & bridges the gap to the main high current supply, it doesn't receive this supply because the large boot fuse has blown.

This main fuse which supplies the main high starter current only connects to the starter & alternator, so if it's blown then it won't affect any other electrical system on the car. The other half of the High Power Protection Module also contains another high power fuse that supplies the current to all the other vehicle electrical systems-including the solenoid supply.

So if the big half of the High Power Protection Module has blown it's fuses, then you'll be able to hear the solenoid clicking & the pinion whirring when you try & start the engine-but it won't receive the main high-current supply to actually crank the engine.

As plums says, check the positive supply from the false bulkhead joint to the High Power Protection Module in the boot. I'm thinking that this boot-mounted module has blown it's internal high-current fuse to the starter.

 

Wow you should be a technical writer! Great and concise reply. I thought the power protection module was an solid state relay to prevent fire in the event of a crash and ignition key off times. Thanks!

 

Try to take the belts off... Maybe something locked up? I see an alternator on a 350 chevy lock up and same thing. Guy was looking for an engine and all it was the bearing. Worth a shot and its free to try.

 

Looking at the circuit diagrams, the High Power Protection Module has a single positive input from the battery & 2 separate positive outputs which go to the following places:

1) A single output terminal going to the front of the car to the false bulkhead stud & then to the alternator main output terminal & starter motor feed-this is internally fused in the Module with 2 parallel 250 Amp fuses.

2) Another output terminal with 2 wires that go off to the main power bus & fuse boxes-this is internally fused with a single 250 amp fuse.

There is no ground connection to the Module, so it's not solid-state in operation & it would be hard to make a solid-state module to operate at that current level. It's a straightforward power fuse module with very high value fuses in the positive supply rails.

So if the fuses blow, the power ceases & cannot be reset except by replacing the module.

The starter motor has 2 positive supply inputs:

1) One from the ignition switch which supplies +12v to the starter solenoid when the ignition key is turned to the 'start' position. The solenoid current internally passes through the starter field winding & armature, causing the motor to slowly rotate & engage smoothly with the flywheel teeth as the solenoid pulls the rotating pinion towards the flywheel.

2) The second +12v supply is the main starter current supply & is permanently 'live' at all times-it's also connected to the alternator main B+ output terminal. Once the starter solenoid has fully closed, it bridges a couple of internal contacts which then connect the main live high-current +12v feed to the starter armature so it can develop full power & crank the engine.

These 2 +12v supplies to the starter come from different routes from the boot-mounted High Power Protection Module. So it is possible for half the module to blow it's fuses & go 'dead', whilst the other half remains 'live' & allows the rest of the vehicle electrics to function.

This would allow the +12v supply to the ignition switch & starter solenoid to remain 'live', which would give the appearance of the starter pinion turning slowly & the solenoid clicking. However, once the starter solenoid closes fully & bridges the main high-current supply contacts, there is no high-current supply as the fuse is blown in that half of the module. So the starter doesn't receive it's expected high current supply & just 'flops' dead with the solenoid clicking.

I just love electrical faults-provided I've got the circuit diagrams though