Considering a Series 3 Project
 

I'll try to skip through the redundant crap that people post on here about wanting one of these things. My reasons are about the same as anyone else's. Love the body, always wanted one, etc. I didn't buy one for pretty much the same reason as everyone else, age, reliability, etc.

Last summer though, something changed. I watched my brother restore his 1966 122 completely by himself. It took him weeks and weeks, but the idea of "building my own car" has stuck with me and I'm consciously or no, been looking for such a car to invest my precious bodily fluids into. I seriously considered an E38 Sport, but it's a little to "new" for what I'm aiming towards.

I saw the Arden XJ Series 3, and I think I've found my automotive soul mate aesthetically. I don't plan for it to be a show car, I don't plan for it to be period correct, and I don't plan for it to be particularly fast.

I do plan for it to be aesthetically similar to the Arden car, white on black, lowered, etc. and most likely some interior tweaks.

Similar to the one featured here at 1000SEL.com


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.jag...0f83d7b60a.jpg


Now, I'm a Volvo man, that dull predictable Toyota of European Luxury cars. I have my own Volvo salvage yard and have an infinite supply of parts. I was thinking of getting an 85-87 Series 3 and dropping a 96 Volvo 960 drive train into it. Not a particularly powerful drive train, but dependable and an improvement over the stock set up performance wise. Not light years ahead, just better and more reliable.

I currently have a 85 with a pretty much unsalvageable body, but I'm thinking I'll pull everything out of it and see about the fit before going to far. No need to rush, yes?

I was measuring dimensions and the engine sizes are very similar in width and length.

Anyone have any thoughts on this project? I'll try not to be just another wank with a hair brained idea. And please, don't suggest the V8 conversion. I'm not doing that. If it gets another engine it's something Euro. End of discussion. I don't know anything about Chevy, and I have no interest in learning.

But, am I flaming mad?

Sounds Ok to me. The Volvo drivetrain swap sounds like huge work but it sounds like you're going in with both eyes open.

Series IIIs are great cars. Built like a tank, drive like velvet. As you dig in you'll find out for yourself.

I'm not sure why you're limiting yourself to 1985-87, though

I'm slowly progressing through my own Series III project: turning an XJ6 into an XJ12

Cheers and good luck

Cheers
DD

I like your way of thinking, being a straight 6 lover a SBC would be my last option. A mate and myself have done some measuring of a Ford 4.1 liter crossflow from a 1977 XC Falcon that he has getting in the way.
With what he has in parts it will bolt straight to my BW12 trans(same as ford FMX auto) so only engine mounting to condsider.
But my engine is still strong and reliable,just planning ahead.

Good luck, I hope you follow through as I will follow the build with interest.:icon_beerchug:

That sounds like a Very Interesting project.
It's certainly a Beautiful example of your goal.
I'll be watching with interest, even though my car came to me with a Chevy 350 and I love it. I'm not a proponent of V8s necessarily (I'm certainly not a purist), but I am a Huge proponent of owners being able to do Exactly what they want to do with their cars.

I wish you success on your journey.
(';')

Will be interesting to see a road less travelled story, good luck with the project.

FWIW I'm really just agreeing with most others here, so doing it as you want it and not as someone else would like it is the only way to go. Thankfully we're all different! Either way, the SIII is sheer style on wheels and they are worth saving. Look forward to hearing of your progress.

Considering a Series 3 Project
 

There was a thread on here by a guy named Wilfred. He put an aj6 into a series 2 i think. He did it in a barn. If you can find it you might get an idea or 2. Good luck. And DO it. It is your car, cash, time and bodily fluids.

Oh and to answer your question, YES you are flaming mad. We all are here...... you have to be to own one of these big cats.

Here is the link to Wilfre88's build.

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...engine-107712/

Just checking that site......some good looking ser3's....good luck!

at one point in 1975 I owned two Volvos, a 1971 1800-E manual 4-speed OD and a 1973 1800-ES automatic, my favorite luxury sport cars of all time.

the 1800-E with its 5th gear overdrive was a car ahead of its time, after 90 mph and up to 130 mph on a straight line nobody could catch me, not even a race-prepared BMW which had a nasty reputation for being unbeatable, so I usually ended with $50.00 bucks bet in my pocket, until the BMW owner decided he was NOT going to race with me. CHICKEN !! ha ha

But that smooth B20 F.I. engine also had a reputation for blowing the water pump gasket which I kept replacing and replacing.

Who says BMW drivers are incapable of learning.
(';')

Oh, yeah!!!


Tis fun to dust a Bimmer....


Tales of three Volvo's, not mine....


1. In the late 70's BART went on an extended strike. About four of we key folks in the office depended on it to get to work. Smart boss, VP, loaned the office car to us. It just sat in the garage at night anyway. A nice new 79 Ford Granada. One guy had a new Volvo wagon. His gorgeous Swede wife insisted. Odd, similar Bosh EFI to the Jaguar one. We were to meet at the Brt lot and join for the trip, taking turns as to who drove the Granada. Ok, except for some AM's. Volvo no start. he lived close by and we picked him up or he walked. Odd, they had traded in a Granada for the Volvo!!!


2. A young lawyer I worked with had one of those sleek little Volvo coupes, 1800's or similar, I think. Well, his trophy wife stacked it up on a pole. She OK. Good. he extremely upset. He asked me if he should dump her. consensus. Naah, divorce too expensive...


3. My dear departed wife's gal pal was a Finn by birth. Stiff accent, never figured out if it was a by choice or just the way it was. Hard to understand for me. Wife did just fine??? .A Volvo wagon at her insistence. Scandanvian pride I guess. Troublesome.
Then, it got "T boned". Not her fault, according to her. Wife's translation to me indicated otherwise. But, aside from a bum knee, she was OK. Wanted another Volvo. Her hubby won that one after a considerable dry spell. Nice sedate Honda this time!!!. She fussed, it ran..


Carl.

I didn't say anything !! :icon_wink:

Carl,

life goes like this:

1) everybody in jail is innocent.

2) nobody is at fault in any car accident.

3) everybody finds Jesus in jail.

4) it was the other guy's fault for the accident.

5) whatever it was, it was no accident.

6) I never had sex with that woman.

7) I smoked pot but I didn't inhale it.

Thanks for the show of support. I was going to snap pictures of the victims that are going to be pulled apart for measuring purposes, but the day did not provide enough time.

I am trying to approach this with both eyes open, and if something complete lunacy, feel free to call me out. The thing I'm loving about the older car forums is the members have an air of decency and civility about them. Reasonable grammar is a plus too.

This is a very personal project for me, and I hope I can see it through. Even if in the end I get a different power plant or change some design ideas. There is really no reason for targeting specifically the 85-87 years except that it's the end of the production run and I assumed the later production models were build better than the earlier examples. Is this not true?

I'm reading through Wilfre88's build, and hopefully I can get a few ideas. Rust bothers me as I have never welded anything in my life and will have to out source that of the repair.

I'm not sure how quickly you will see progress as I also have an X350 project that I'm finishing up. If I want a break from the Ser3, I also have a black 1993 XJ40 "barn find" waiting in the wings. But I'm trying to focus on one thing at a time. More than two car projects at a time is probably to much. I like the XJ40, but not as much as the Series 3.

I have a very different end in mine for the XJ40 than the S3, but again, trying not to think about it to much.
--------------------------------------

On the Volvo comments: my wife also insists she only wants her Volvo wagon. She has no Swedish blood, she's Persian/American actually, but she insists I can get her anything I want as long as it's a Volvo station wagon.

during the years of 1981 through 1985 or thereabouts, a man named John Egan took over Jaguar Quality control and through a heavy handed approach, raised the quality of the Series 3 to a very high standard. It's a matter of opinion, but in my experience, the 1983 thru 1985 XJ-6 were the best as far as electrical and mechanical reliability, but a lot depends on the care the particular car has had. This is not to say they are or were perfect. The issue of the roof drains and the rust around the windshields was never resolved, and other issues went un-addressed. John Egan was "stolen" from Jaguar by Aston Martin in 1985 and again Jaguar was left to itself in terms of quality controls, at the same time it was developing and building the XJ-40. Big mess I suppose.

Curiously this afternoon I saw a real nice, used Volvo Wagon being sold in my neighborhood. I THINK it was a wagon. I went by too fast.

Opinions vary on that. But, at this point in time, *present day* condition is probably a lot more important the any original build quality issues that surfaced 30-35 years ago.

IOW, a *really nice*, well cared for, minimal rust pre-85 car would be a better buy than a 'fair condition' 1985-newer example.

But, hey, you're gonna be going thru the car from stem to stern anyway. Your main concern should be finding a no-rust or minimal-rust car

Cheers
DD

I had heard about the quality control revision brought in by John Egan and I assumed the progress he made continued to improve things through the production cycle.

For my project I suppose reliability isn't really a concern. I was already assuming I will be re-wiring a lot of lights, new wiring harnesses for the engine bay, and misc bits and bobs. I couldn't seem to find a year by year change I just assumed later would be better.



-------

Haha, now if you see a Volvo wagon you are thinking of purchasing give me a year and model and I can from memory quote the service intervals of just about everything that brakes and how much it costs to fix.

Though, I'm most familiar with the 1990 something and newer. In my area I only have a couple customers still hanging on to their old bricks.

The only thing that went downhill was the engines.....some bad crankshafts and line boring. But I have to think any duds were either fixed (under warranty, probably) or are already in the scrapyards.




Right.

Frankly I've been neck deep in numerous Series IIIs and haven't noticed any difference of any kind in the wiring, be it early-middle-late production. And the Lucas wiring horror stories are a bit overblown to begin with. Clean the connections, clean the grounds. Bingo, you've just solved 90% of the "Lucas" problems :)


Cheers
DD

I represent that remark ! :icon_tongue:

Here is a picture of the donor car to be chopped up in the name of science.


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.jag...feaf8d763b.jpg

When I try something new I believe the first attempt will go poorly, the second attempt is much higher quality, and the third attempt is usually the keeper.

My though was to strip this car and use it as a point of reference with as little clutter as possible.

---------------------------------------
Going back to the different years: were there any changes structurally from year to year? Things like engine cradle modifications, changes to suspension, etc. If I get a 82, would it be basically the same car as an 87, or perhaps more importantly, the 85 I already have?

And yes, it would have a full stem to stern make over, so inherent "reliability" is pretty moot if there was no changes that would affect the cars ability to avoid rust.

I've dismantled many XJ's over the years and steel quality varies greatly. I'm into coupes but IF I ever did an XJ sedan it would only be a later 86/87 only. By that time the steel quality and weld quality was much better than the in the late 70's and early 80's.

Geez, your donar car looks to be in better shape than the one I intend to fix up!

Yeah!


My car is an 83. a Northern California car. Originly sold in nearby Vallejo, I think.
Might be a cross over car. New or old quality control at time of it's making. I don't know.


But, only one teeny spot of rust. Just a bubble down low on the left front wing. has not progessed since it cvame to my garage in 2001. Best, leave it be.


Just finished an extended electrical skirmish. Started with a no brake light thing. Fixed. Then, a crank at times, no crank at times. Got stranded twice. Nearby, though. Home on a flat bed each time.


Fix:


1. New and better firewall post to solenoid cable.
2. Bum or worn out starters. Non Jaguar!!! GM stuff.
3. Rebuilt crank circuit. Non jaguar as well, but patterned after.
4. NOS ignition switch.
5. Replacement battery. _ Side post melted. Can't blame Lucas here...


All is now well.


So, could this be in any 30 year old car? You bet.


Actually, neighbor is struggling with EFI on his 94 Cadillac. A real beauty. Not the big Fleetwood brougham,. a "mere' Deville"?


Carl

Ah, le sigh. The things Californians call "rust" brings tears to eyes of classic car enthusiasts on a budget in the Northeast. You should see what we are trying to save up here, mostly because that's what we got. (check out the split window VW bus forums www.thesamba.com , you'll be shocked at what we're trying to save!)

Don't get me started on California. Uh oh! Too late. Suffice to say that please, California (and this goes for you too Arizona, I'm looking at you), STOP crushing cars that you conisider "rusty" (dime size surface rust, heck, even fist size holes are better than what we, have, which is no floors, rockers rotted from the inside, etc.

Ah, I think someone needs to start a racket, We'll send you our perfect dashboards and original seats (yep, they survive up here!) and you can send us your discarded body shells.

I follow the blog Rusty But Trusty (actually own one of the cars on there, and man, is it rusty!) and the guy who runs that often seems to complain about if he has to buff out dull paint as if that's a huge ordeal. I just roll my eyes as I read that.

Of course, the thing to do is get those California "rust buckets" up here but often enough the cost of transporting it is prohibitive. When a California car does get up here, once it goes up for sale it's like a baby gazelle entering a den full of hungry lions. It doesn't last long on the market.

So please southwest USA, you've got a gold mine there in not very rusty bodies! Keep them on the road, or at the very least, away from the crusher!

If it is just the body shape you want to keep, you could improve on the car to no end.

My suggestion would be to completely remove the whole cars wiring and replace it with the car of your choice. Would take a bit longer, but a modern wiring loom from the volvo that also has the same engine would then theoretically have all the mod cons (if adapted) like alarms, lights, central locking/keyless entry, and be a plug and play job if done properly.

I did this to an old datsun 1600 (510) with a nissan silvia (240sx) loom, and modern Fuel injected engine and everything went so smoothly, just had to lengthen/shortern a few wires

That was pretty much what I was planning to do. I want a clean install and easy of use is ideal.

The climate control seems like it may be a hurdle.


I have grown very spoiled by the modern cars with the keyless entry/start and I wonder if there are options in the aftermarket that wouldn't be absolute rubbish, but I'm trying to focus on just one thing at a time.

Haha, once I get the mechanicals sorted out in reliable fashion the infotainment would be the next step. I am thinking a tablet of sorts should be mounted somewhere without destroying the aesthetics of the car and then the audio piped out to an audio controller to get reasonable sounds. Only a small sub-woofer though, thank you much.

I'll be pulling the donor car round about the house - hopefully - later today and I'll post a few more pictures of it's sins. *shrug* Maybe I'm over stating how rough it is. It's just the one I've already got and I assumed my first attempt won't be especially pretty.

No significant suspension changes. Circa 1983 the front control arms were changed to give a slight geometry change. That's it.

No design changes in cradle/subframe design. Not sure if quality of materials changed.

Cheers
DD

The 'replace all the wiring' idea comes up from time to time. Personally I'd advise against it unless you're just absolutely itching to do LOTS of extra work of highly questionable benefit. Lights, dashboard, door wiring...the body/chassis looms....a big undertaking to replace. Unless the car has been in a fire or flood then 95% of the existing wiring will be pristine except for the engine bay wiring (which you won't be using) and wiring exposed to the elements (horn and exterior lamps, which is easily repaired-as-needed).

The effort would be better used elsewhere, IMHO.

With respect to fuel injection/engine wiring, Jaguar made it easy in that those are separate looms that can be removed individually. The F.I. ECU is in the boot with a stand-alone loom running forward. Can be removed fully intact in a short afternoon....or obviously much less if you want to cut it.




Climate control can be a hurdle on these cars, yes :)

In what respect are you referring?





Keyless entry is easily (and commonly) installed on a Series III although three variations of central locking were used by Jaguar so the process varies a bit.

Remote start is as easy as any other old car.

There are good quality controllers out there.

Cheers
DD

I couldn't work on the X350, so I worked on the S3 a bit.

I hauled it out of the field it has been sitting in for nearly 6 years and drained the fluids and got rid of the lions share of the debris that has collects in the engine bay.

The cabin was remarkably well preserved for having sat in the weather and no sign of rodent intrusion. Can't say the same for the boot though. There was layer of turds that I had to deal with.

In regards to the over all condition of the body otherwise, it's actually not as bad as I expected.

There is rust around the filler necks.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.jag...7660816d08.jpg


There are a lot of spots that the paint is pealing up and perhaps bondo? The paint seems especially thick, but not as thick as I would expect if someone slathered filler everywhere. Maybe it was just a quality re-paint at some point.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.jag...73dc056a0f.jpg



Rust around the front windshield. It appears like someone had has removed the windshield in the past and the attempted repair isn't holding but so well.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.jag...d8c5141121.jpg


There is a few holes, the most visible one probably being the one by the left rear quarter panel wheel arch.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.jag...e5813f6861.jpg

The floor and frame are in good shape and no immediately visible intrusion in the engine bay.

I really am doubtful that this body will be worth saving due to being able to find a nicer body for lot a lot of coin. Should a forum member want the body though, it can be had for the price of scrap metal once I'm done with it. Minus of course any parts I keep. Spare grill, headlights, turn signals, etc will all be kept by me. :)

-----------------

In regards to Doug's comments about removing all the wiring. Yes, I'm not going to go crazy and rip the entire car apart in an attempt to solve all it's potential electrical gremlins. I was always taught that nothing is thrown away until the project is completed, so I will be avoiding cutting any wiring harnesses on that principle. I've rebuilt wiring harnesses before, wire by wire, and it's a tedious process that I don't care to do any more than I possibly have to.


In regards to the a/c: I was thinking about the difficulties using the Volvo a/c compressor and condenser, and wondering how hard both installing the newer systems and R134 go over. Temperature sensor, evaporator, etc. Vintage cars don't need a/c, right? Hrm....

My brother's 122 has a, I think, factory system that mounted under the dash and I don't believe he had trouble with that retrofit. But he didn't change the engine at all.

Oh well, one step at a time.

Well, I have been plugging away at my project but the hurricane did a number on the test mule.


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.jag...31b6dcf305.jpg

I've been looking for another body, but so far nothing has really panned out. I looked at two "supposed" to be really nice bodied 86's, but in reality both were quite shot. I've you encounter one on the central east coast, let me know.

Oh No!!
I'm So sorry! I hope no one was hurt.
(';')

Ouch!......best of luck

that is the way mother nature send us messages.

Choice of a car can be objective or subjective or both. I've bought a few in my life.
I agree with Doug. Choose the best example in the budget, specie or year secondary at best. I wanted a Bronco. The field narrowed to a rusty but detailed Bronco and a really good F150. Price almost alike as well as the year. Well, the Bronco was powered by a 351 and the F150 by only the 302. I chose the F150. It served me well.


Bimmers!!!


The "kid" next door flips and fixes cars a s a side line. Pretty good shade tree mechanic. Most of his projects come out just fine.


Well, he took in a neat little Bimmer convertible. Just a service the trans job. Change oil and filter. Went just fine. Oh, oh, a come back !!! All gears except reverse vanished!!!! Now what????? Wonder what it has as a trans. My guess would be Gertrag???


Why? Issue in the pickup.... From afar and purely wild....


Carl

Ouch, bad news.

If you are going for a volvo drive train it would be great to use a T5,6 or 8.
Might as well as it's going to be a similar amount of work.
Are the T series engines reliable? Used to love seeing the volvo turbobrick racing!!
Don't know much about Volvos though I'm more of a Saab nut.

Wow. Thats some hood ornament! And just think some folks dont like the leaper!!!

In seriousness though. Its hurts to look at! Im.glad nobody got hurt!

With how well built these are and how thick the steel panels are, I'm sure its barely left a scratch.

On a positive note, at least you now have another parts car!

Well, the tree almost missed the car and where it did impact didn't do as much damage as you would think. Either due to impact going elsewhere or the strength of the car. I would speculate it would be the weight going elsewhere because the dry rotting tires didn't explode.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.jag...e682ed888a.jpg


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.jag...4243eb33c6.jpg


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.jag...1d80bf319a.jpg

Oddly enough the tree split just above the hood I had propped against it.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.jag...aa2c080449.jpg



I can't say it's a huge loss because I had almost complete given up on this car as a test mule because of how rusty the frame was. I did not feel safe being under the car while it was on jack stands and I placed further braces under the car to keep the car from imploding my head in case the stands went through the floor...

I had found a car that sounded about perfect. Purchased off an estate sale a year ago with about 70K miles. Supposed to be in really fantastic shape, and the purchaser was a real estate agent who was selling before he moved to Australia.

Good miles, it was that light metallic blue, had the wire wheels, and the interior appeared to be in pretty decent shape. On the plus side it ran and drove and had a valid inspection sticker. I told the seller, "if the body is in as good a shape as described it, I'll pay your asking price even if it doesn't run."

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.jag...84b859fee5.jpg


I proceeded to be a tad annoying and asked for lots of photos, asked for pictures of the common rust points, and did as much due diligence as I could from a couple hundred miles away to the point of being annoying. I justified my badgering because I was pretty sure this was the replacement car for my current SIII and was willing to pay the price posted without fuss. I was almost all set to give away money sight unseen and was arrange transport when I decided it would be better to make absolutely certain and hired an appraiser in the area to come look at the car. And yea.... That was money WELL spent.

Odometer didn't work so who knows what the true miles are. The fact that was omitted from the many conversation while the car was being advertised as a low mileage car alone was almost enough to make me walk away, but the inspector continued giving the car a good grilling and it got even better.

The claims many many claims of no rust was backup up by CAREFUL close ups of select areas, because not being slow close would reveal the faults. The entire car was that way. Most of the common rust points were well on their way to being serious problems and the entire car had rust bubbles showing up under the paint and the floor boards were leaving this world for the next.

And of course the interior was pretty shot too. I was quite miffed, but very glad I didn't buy sight unseen.

I said, "I'll give you $500" and the seller told me to "get the **** out." The feeling was mutual, and so we parted ways. :)

Well, it gets better. That same weekend my X350 very nearly broke my thumb while I tried to change the left front dash vent. I moved the steering wheel out of the way to get the trim around the instrument cluster loose and then without thinking took the key out of the ignition. The steering column went back to "exit height," which is all the way in and all the way up. My thumb got caught between the steering column and the dash right at the knuckle. I have piano fingers but there was no room to spare and it still hurts 36 hour later...

A silly mistake, but I'm not used to power steering columns....


A friend of mine says this is a higher power is trying to speak some sense into my life, perhaps to tell me my free time would be better spent on non-British cars?