but here is the catch: Not everyone here knows the 12 cylinder like Doug, and obviously Neptun doesn't.

So like another poster stated, a 1983 12 cylinder is a minefield.

and a headliner job is not as simple as a replacing a bulb in either the 6 or 12 cylinder, it's a complete interior dismantling which disables the car for as long as it takes to dismantle and reassemble.

1983 wasn't exactly one of the best years for quality at Jaguar, it was STARTING to get better, but not yet, it wasn't until 1984-85 that John Egan had put the house in order.

if the exhaust system is shot, there's another mortgage payment.

if the car has rust or body damage, he'll need a home-equity loan after the first mortgage.

and the engine, the 12 cylinder engine that Doug loves. Can Neptun afford to bring Doug over to get it right? Most shops and techs nowadays don't have much knowledge of these older 12 cylinder cars like Doug does. But if he should find an expert, will it be inexpensive to repair? I doubt it.

So my point is not to discourage Neptun from buying a 12 cylinder XJ Series 3, but to BEWARE and let him know what he is getting into, because regardless of how fast the car can go, or how wonderful 12 cylinders are, the engine is a gas guzzler and a maintenance nightmare, when compared to his 2003 S type.

Sooooo, like Gregory said: "trading your S-Type for the 1983 V12 would be a mistake - a very big mistake. Don't do it. Especially if there is any rust in the body anywhere. Unless you have the wealth of Creosus".

 

It's not at all difficult to find threads, here and on other forums, where a newbie has jumped into a V12 Jag and successfully made the needed repairs. Virtually all trouble points and failure modes, and the fixes, are known and documented. As I mentioned, outright, this can be challenging and requires patience. And, I'll add, also requires a willingness to learn from the very ample supply of Jag V12 information and documentation that's out there.

Anyone who is now an experienced Jag V12 owner was once a newbie. The exact same thing can be said of any first-time Jag owner buying a *6-cylinder* car. In 1997 I bought my first Jag, a Series III 6-cylinder. I had lots to learn.....and I learned it. Gregory was my earliest teacher. Many people I knew.....none of them having ever actually owned a Jaguar.... insisted I was a fool and told me how a used Jaguar will "never" be a good car and used descriptions such as "minefield", "nightmare", and the like. I'm sure they enjoyed tossing out the melodramatic vocabulary but they were wrong. The car wasn't a minefield; it wasn't a nightmare; I wasn't a fool. I simply had to learn.

When I bought my first V12 I again had to learn some new things. But, I learned.

Yes, we are unaware of Neptun's level of skill, enthusiasm, or financial resources. The correct way to respond to that lack of information, IMO, is to present a balanced perspective until/unless he reveals more about himself. Summarily dismissing a V12 car as possible candidate isn't doing anyone (or the hobby) any favors. We should be trying to keep more of 'em on the road. We shouldn't be sentencing more of them to the graveyard by issuing blanket condemnations.

I've worked on quite a few Series IIIs and XJSs, 6 and 12 cylinder. I can tell you that they typically need the *very same* repairs. Cooling system overhauls, repair/replacement of brittle wires, new fuel hoses, fuel injector cleaning, replace various leaky gaskets, and so forth. Doing these repairs on a V12 simply requires more labor hours and more patience. It isn't rocket surgery. If you are a successful DIYer with your 6-cylinder Jag you can be a successful DIYer with a V12. Same skillset required. You just need more patience.....and, yes, twice the number of spark plugs and fuel injector hoses. For some this is tantamount to a "nightmare" and a "minefield". For others it's enjoyable and satisfying. We don't know what Neptun's mindset is and shouldn't assume.

Yes, there are some V12 quirks that *must* be learned but, to reiterate, we're blessed with tons of good V12 information. There is as much or more internet technical (and moral) support for the V12 as any other engine/car. If a person is a willing student the information is out there. Here again, learning something new can be a nightmare and a minefield for some. Or, quite enjoyable for others.

Cheers
DD

 

C'mon! Can you honestly say that? I would ask you to review your previous posts.


"....because 12 cylinder engines are a nightmare of maintenance and servicing. "

"....in a 12 Cylinder of 1983 vintage with 112k miles, the engine and transmission is NEVER fine"

"....your wife will divorce you!"


You have a penchant for, and apparently enjoy, hyperbole and melodrama.




Cheers
DD

 

Every IC powered car and others can be challenges. But, most can be challenged and defeated.


I've been there, in other critters, and found answers !!


Were it not for my 87 years, I'd delight in taking on a V12.


Carl

 

Well that tears it!
I had entertained the faint hope of owning a well sorted V12 some day, but I like to drive hard and I like to drive fast; in short, I drive to Get There.

Some might consider that Flogging, but my engines have always thrived on it (never got carbon under the valves!).

Oh well........
Back to flogging my 350. (C'mon, Nix, lets go play on the Passing Lanes!)
(';')

 

"Floggng" might mean different thins to different people. For me and you it means running an engine hard and/or at high RPM. For others it might mean abusing an engine? I dunno.

A Jag V12 does not mind hard running at all. The bottom end and reciprocating assembly are made of high grade materials and virtually unbreakable. Crankshaft held in place by 28 studs. Valve train failure (from other than overheating) is a rarity. *Occasionally*we hear of timing chain tensioner failures. In short the V12 will tolerate just about any flogging you can throw at it, to 6500+ RPM.

The only flogging it won't tolerate is A) the type that comes with a neglected cooling system and B) the type that comes from neglected fuel hoses and resultant fire . Other than that you'd have to try very hard to hurt one.

Many drive their Jags as though they were made out of glass. I've heard a couple owners mention that they never use "passing gear" because they're afraid doing so will hurt the engine. Seriously.

Most V12 Jags of the 80s had the 2.88 differential. This gives you 65 mph in first gear and about 110 mph in second, shifting at 6500 RPM. Ask me how I know! Italian tune-ups are part of routine care with a V12

Cheers
DD

 

LnrB & Doug,

I drive hard, I don't flog an engine.

People don't realize that racing engines don't operate at full throttle 100% of the time, nor do they understand that said engines get rebuilt regularly.

As both of you know, jag engines very much like to be exercised.

Best way to reduce carbon build up in the head is high speed, high rev open roadway motoring. Safely of course.

I do mostly city driving which involves stop start peak hour driving.

The engine does get a little lumpy from this and so a good blast on the freeway every so often settles this down.

Cheers,

Nigel

 

To flog:

"beat (someone) with a whip or stick as a punishment" Does flogging the Jag constitute cruelty, or is it really a kindness?

"promote or talk about (something) repetitively or at excessive length" Yep, we've done that.

"sell or offer for sale" What we do when its time to divorce the car


Good luck with your decision making, Neptun. I hope that among all the passions expressed in here you have found something useful to assist you in that process.

 

I recommend to Neptune that he does a search for "V12" or "12 cylinders" in this forum, and read the kind of problems owners have with these cars.

Just because someone here likes them and enjoys fixing them, doesn't mean everybody else does, or knows how to, or has to like them.

The bottom line was already stated very clearly:

The V12 is a minefield, a complicated engine at best, and if you are not a technician able to repair it yourself, it will eat your money in maintenance and parts costs and if you have to repair a rusted body on top of an old engine, forget about saving money.

ALSO: Forget about the mileage on the odometer of that car, the Speedos in all Series 3 cars can be replaced easily with a lower mileage Speedo, so do not trust any mileage numbers unless they are very well documented with maintenance records.

A 1983 car with low mileage but with a worn interior and rusted body and / or really worn out exhaust system is suspicious. Be it a V12 or a V16.

 

I fully, 100% agree. Neither I nor anyone here has asserted otherwise so I'm not sure why you would make such as statement. Please explain.



You speak as though there is just one "bottom line".

Why?


Cheers
DD

 

This series 3 4.2L 6 cylinder 1984 Daimler cost me £2,000 and I love her.
Needs headlining and there's a few rust patches under the rear bumper but she still runs great.
Well worth the money.

 

My idea of any IC. Is to take care of it. coolant oil, electrics, etc.


Then, drive it. ***** footing around town, not enough. I come off a "yield" ot "stop" sign with alactrity.


And, in each of my cars, a freeway run, sans OD, to get the RPM's up. I like It and my critters seem to respond.


Way back when, I was kid. I had a couple of horses. One, an aged retired "cow pony". He liked to "let it out" on occasion as well. Ha d tee tetitree
aS

 

I'll trade you the Daimler grille.

 

Welcome to the forum.

What a beautiful machine! If it's half as good throughout as it looks here then you got an real bargain, especially for the high spec Daimler. If you have a sunroof (guessing factory standard) then the headlining is a tricky job to DYI. Have it done professionally, it will be worth it.

 

Doug, are you past your bedtime? Get over it! That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it.

 

Not a new thing. But,. we strayed from the original point. Swapping a healthy "S" type for a V12 powered car with multiple issues.


Carl