XJ6 & XJ12 Series I, II & III 1968-1992

Rolling Stock: Safety At Speed

 
  #1  
Old 08-27-2014, 04:06 AM
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Default Rolling Stock: Safety At Speed

It's been several days since I posted about my blowout of a left rear tire on a right curve at 70 mph.

We thought it would be a straightforward process replacing of a tire, perhaps even under warrantee as it has fewer than 5000 miles since "new" and therefore not an expensive project. Well, that's not gonna happen.

Research for reasons for the failure revealed the tire, Michelin Radial X (no longer made), was built in April of 2004!! It came from COSTCO, probably a closeout from some tire warehouse somewhere. Just the thing to put on a car one is listing for sale! They still had rubber whiskers when we first looked at the car in August 2013. Upon that discovery, husband decided to replace all the tires with new, 130 mph rating, stiffer sidewalls, General Altimax HP. Not the best tires, but the best we could buy considering all else we're doing.

WHENEVER BUYING TIRES BE SURE TO CHECK MANUFACTURE DATE!!

There was also the issue of the missing rear stud. Husband decided to only replace that stud as we have a dead line and it won't be too difficult. But the front studs are also suspect because when the tire guy was mounting the last time, one of them simply kept turning, and turning, and turning until if finally reached the specified torque. Since we don't know exactly which one that was husband is going to replace all the front studs. That requires removal of the entire front hub assembly, calipers and all, contrary to what the Official Jaguar ROM said! BUMMER!!

My Tear Drop rims require spacers so they don't interfere with suspension and body parts. When we got the car there were 2 (two) stacked 3/8 inch spacers, some of the cheapest known to mankind, on each front hub; 3/4 inch total offset (also 3/4 inch fewer threads holding each tire)! Perhaps that's one of the reasons it handled so poorly. We jettisoned one spacer from each side as soon as we discovered the situation. Handling improved. Only one spacer on each rear hub.

Husband found some hub-centric spacers, billet turned with flanges, with individually drilled holes instead if the Huge, sloppy slots intended to fit everything but fitting nothing correctly. Spacers should have longer lug bolts for optimum tire security. Those had to come from Across the Pond and they didn't exactly give them away.

New longer studs should have new lug nuts, mostly because husband doesn't trust the ones we have. They weren't cheap either because he wanted good quality shiny ones, longer than stock, that would secure my rims.

Are you getting the picture now? What started out as a straight foward, easy repair has grown exponentially to a Major project! But he's the Banker and he wants to do all this, so I'm not going to stand in the way as he throws money about, especially when it's going toward my Jaguar. Still he assures me all will be finished in Plenty of time for the club cruise September 20.

There are probably several things I've neglected to mention, but as this thread goes along I'll doubtless add them.

Below are some photos for your viewing pleasure.
 
Attached Thumbnails Rolling Stock:  Safety At Speed-shred-ed.jpg   Rolling Stock:  Safety At Speed-leftrearhubstudmissing.jpg   Rolling Stock:  Safety At Speed-cheapiespacer.jpg   Rolling Stock:  Safety At Speed-hubcentricspacers.jpg   Rolling Stock:  Safety At Speed-prettytires.jpg  


Last edited by Cambo; 08-27-2014 at 06:09 AM. Reason: thread title typo
  #2  
Old 08-27-2014, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by LnrB View Post
Research for reasons for the failure revealed the tire, Michelin Radial X (no longer made), was built in April of 2004!! It came from COSTCO, probably a closeout from some tire warehouse somewhere.
Good call to fit a full set, I'll look forward to reading more.....
 
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Old 08-27-2014, 09:36 AM
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Elinor:

You got a good guy. Looks out for you. Keeping the wheels on is a biggie!!

Almost lost one a few decades ago. At "speed" on the Golden State Freeway in my 63 Corvair Camperized van. Only the body tin kept it sorta on. The drum was riding on the inner edge of the Mag wheel.

I was wondering just how the description of changing the front lugs was going to work!! Answer, it won't !!

And, yup, those spacers are awful, they did exactly as i suspected. Not wheel to hub centric. All the load on the bolts. Not good at all. Hubbie's choice is much better if you must have spacers. Have you tried fitting the wheels sans spacers??? Is it tin and suspension clash of a failure of the wheel centers to match the hub center?

COSTCO deserves a rip for selling 10 year old rubber.

Fresh studs and nuts is far from over kill in view of the risks and history.

Touring tires suit most of us just fine. How likely are you to exceed 130 for long stretches. That annual race in Nevada for the 200mph folks???

Nix will be better than ever!!! And her stewardess safe.

Carl
 
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Old 08-27-2014, 04:06 PM
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What are the legalities of wheel spacers in the USA, over here in Australia they are illegal for road use and an instant "get out of jail free card" for an insurance company should anything happen.[many of us with landrover defenders would love to use them for the wider track]
Richard
 
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Old 08-27-2014, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by hooter View Post
What are the legalities of wheel spacers in the USA, over here in Australia they are illegal for road use and an instant "get out of jail free card" for an insurance company should anything happen.[many of us with landrover defenders would love to use them for the wider track]
Richard
I have just spent some time looking into this issue, Richard, thank you for bringing it up.

The only reference I can find to wheel spacers is the laws of various off-road organizations. The Feds don't seem to care.

Some state have stringent wheel spacer laws, Utah for example, where they are completely banned. I can't find even a mention of them in the California Traffic Code. I imagine if you had some Extreme spacing of several inches a CHP might write you up for general safety concerns but you would have to get his attention first. I have my Spidie Senses on full when I'm driving anyway.

The only spacing reference I find is lowering. The lowest point of a passenger vehicle can be no lower than the lowest point of the tire rim. So if you have ultra low profile tires you can have a lower car than if you have high profile tires.

Tire shops have got around that loophole however, by ordering personnel that company policy forbids working on tires with spacers installed. I've actually been told this by an employee at Les Schwab Tires but they worked on it anyway. I imagine in practice it's up to the manager, if he likes you or not.

This is the reason I took a van load of tires in to Sears today and had them mounted and balanced and brought them out here again to put them on myself. I am a firm believer in what they don't know won't hurt me. Had I taken Nix in, even with "proper" spacers, I am a stranger to them and they could have refused me.

I'm not going to call up the insurance agency, ask them about it and make them suspicious. I may review our policy, but mostly I'll just drive carefully; Fast but carefully.
(';')
 
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Old 08-27-2014, 08:02 PM
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Default More Surprises

This morning early we loaded up Wart with 9 tires, 5 of them mounted and I took them to the Sears shop for mounting and balancing as they offered the best price.

The reason I took the tires like that was that if I took the car in, my favorite Les Schwab tire tech told me the last time I was in, that they weren't really supposed to work on tires with spacers but he would work on mine. I'm a Firm believer in what they don't know can't hurt me so if Sears knew it had spacers they could easily refuse to remount the tires for me.

The spare rim is slightly different from the others. It's a slightly different color and has bubbles under the chrome. It's OK to get to a tire shop in an emergency, even mounted with a 10 year old tire, but not for her everyday wear. I chose the best looking Michelin as spare rather than the existing Cooper. It was probably of similar age but the Michelin looked nicer.

Then, after I had passed on everything, in my presence, he took a knife and slit the side walls of all the remaining old tires so that no one could scavenge them out of the trash pile, even for their own use let alone sell them to some unsuspecting innocent via Craig's list etc.

However, as I was backing out early this morning, before the day had even got well started, the rear brake light came on, warning that Wart is due for rear shoes. This will have to be done first before any other work is done on Nix. I don't know how close the sensors are to critical but we're not taking any chances on ruining the drums. Husband has already picked up rear shoes so that will be our project for Friday afternoon and Saturday. Drat!! Yet another delay.

In the meantime Nix has been stripped of her dignity. It's almost like an operating room; she's naked and exposed for 'all the world to see,' completely immobile and at the mercy of others, without even a modesty drape. She looks so forlorn. She doesn't like to be sick. I should pull her grounding strap so she can sleep through the whole ordeal.
(';')
 
Attached Thumbnails Rolling Stock:  Safety At Speed-vanloadtires.jpg   Rolling Stock:  Safety At Speed-moretires.jpg   Rolling Stock:  Safety At Speed-newshoes.jpg   Rolling Stock:  Safety At Speed-new-shoes.jpg   Rolling Stock:  Safety At Speed-newspare.jpg  

Rolling Stock:  Safety At Speed-alljackedup.jpg  
  #7  
Old 08-27-2014, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by JagCad View Post
Elinor:

You got a good guy. Looks out for you. Keeping the wheels on is a biggie!!
He'll be glad to hear that, Carl. I sort of like the idea of all wheels staying on the car.
COSTCO deserves a rip for selling 10 year old rubber.
We have no paperwork for the tires so no proof of purchase. We certainly won't be buying tires from them Ever! We're also spreading the word among all our friends and acquaintances, not to mention in this very thread.
Fresh studs and nuts is far from over kill in view of the risks and history.

Touring tires suit most of us just fine. How likely are you to exceed 130 for long stretches. That annual race in Nevada for the 200mph folks???
The tires are overkill, yes, but he was thinking they could stand up to my driving. True, I'm not likely to hit 130 for more than a minute or two, but we know these tires will do it safely and probably not shred on a curve.
Nix will be better than ever!!! And her stewardess safe.

Carl
I admit I do fly pretty low sometimes. That probably isn't going to change anytime soon.
(';')
 
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Old 08-27-2014, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by LnrB View Post
I'm not going to call up the insurance agency, ask them about it and make them suspicious. I may review our policy, but mostly I'll just drive carefully; Fast but carefully.
(';')

A few years ago I spoke with several insurance claims adjusters about tire types, speed ratings, load ratings and such. I asked if deviation from original spec would be cause to deny a claim. Each one looked at me as though I just stepped out of a space ship from another planet. Apparently they just don't care. Many might be stinkers in other ways but they just don't 'go there' with tires

I strongly suspect the same about wheel spacers.

Carl used to be a claims adjuster. Hopefully he'll chime in.

Cheers
DD
 
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Old 08-28-2014, 08:52 AM
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Elinor, for the teardrops to fit are you saying they have to have 3/4" spacers on the front and 3/8 on the rear? I'm looking into fitting my spare set of teardrops onto my S3 XJ6 for the extra rim width. Do yo mind if I ask where hubby sourced your spacers?
 
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Old 08-28-2014, 09:39 AM
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Doug:


Yeah, some of us are/were stinkers. At times for good reason and at times not so much. one of my guides was to be reasonable with reasonable folks and not so much for the unreasonable ones. And, for the relations with plaintiff attorneys, one had to avoid a reputation of being a Santa Claus. Lots of war stories, but here isn't the place.


In CA, auto policies are fairly well standardized. There are no exclusions for odd modifications or non standard rubber, etc. If one chooses to buy a set of bargain tires and fit them to a 14 Vette and survives the high 100's crash, it's covered!!!!
Policy life, not so much, cancellation in the mail.


I've had my adventures with wheel to hub fittings over the decades. The first by welding 16" wheels to the hub of my Ford T. Sorta OK, when done by a competent
WWII Seabee returned to civilian life as a welder. Not so much when doe by a guy with an oxyacetylene torch!!


Fitting 35 Ford wire wheels to 40-48 Ford hubs seems to work. Sorta, but a spacer needed to reestablish proper wheel to hub contact. Probably more done wrong than right.


Fitting disc wheels to Model A hubs was popular at one time. but, the lug studs bolts were too short. Welding in longer ones was the fix. but, banging out the old ones would warp the hubs unless done right. How did I learn that....


Too much tire and wheel resulted in a busted frame on my 85 Ford F150 4x4!! if Ford hadda included another cross member, it would've been fine. son added it for me and things were fine.


Lesson: Don't just do it. think about it!!!


Carl
 
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Old 08-28-2014, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Mkii250 View Post
Elinor, for the teardrops to fit are you saying they have to have 3/4" spacers on the front and 3/8 on the rear? I'm looking into fitting my spare set of teardrops onto my S3 XJ6 for the extra rim width. Do yo mind if I ask where hubby sourced your spacers?
No, Greg, the rims DO NOT require 3/4inch offset on the front (at least not with 215/60/15)!

That's what the car had on it when we bought it, but husband was so astonished/furious about the shortened effective length of the lug bolts he took off one spacer from each side. I have had no interference between tire/body/suspension with only 3/8inch spacers in front, there was only one spacer on the rear and we left it one alone.

It's possible, however, that IF the car had 70 series tires, OEM specs, instead of 60, the situation might be Entirely different. I like how my car looks and how low and, well, menacing for lack of a better word, not to mention the lower center of mass and enhanced cornering, with the 60 series tires. It sits noticibly lower than one of the club member's SIII with 70 series tires.

Here's the web address:
Billet Hub Centric Wheel Spacers Jaguar (Pair)

He ordered 5 of these (individuals, not pairs) on August 20, they are supposed to arrive by September 3. I'll post when they arrive and how they fit, as the company warns they don't fit all cars without modification. I'll also post what if any mods are required for my car and why.
(';')
 

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Old 08-28-2014, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by JagCad View Post

Lesson: Don't just do it. think about it!!!


Carl
Quite a lot of thought has gone into these spacers, Carl. This is the first experience either of us has with such things. That's why he spent so much time looking for hub-centric ones. Something about getting used to not doing his own laundry or something.
(';')
 
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Old 08-29-2014, 10:07 AM
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LnrB:


The laundry is the least of his concerns. Other stuff is far up the priority list !!!


Had a thought. The interior diameter of the hub spacer must be large enough to fit over the shoulder of the hubs. And the exterior circumference must be small enough to fit within the wheel. and, snugly in each case. As the material suggests, machining may be needed. Measurements and/or trial fittings may find things just right, or....


Gotta go see the eye doc. Hate that pupil dilation thing. But, a reason to take a little Jaguar trip. Nice route, no freeway.... Some 55 mph boulevard.


Carl
 
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Old 08-29-2014, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by JagCad View Post
LnrB:
But, a reason to take a little Jaguar trip. Nice route, no freeway.... Some 55 mph boulevard.
Carl
Do you need a reason, I just tell my wife I'm going for a drive. She rolls her eyes and says, which car? As if she doesn't know.
 
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Old 08-29-2014, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by JagCad View Post
LnrB:
[...]
Had a thought. The interior diameter of the hub spacer must be large enough to fit over the shoulder of the hubs. And the exterior circumference must be small enough to fit within the wheel. and, snugly in each case. As the material suggests, machining may be needed. Measurements and/or trial fittings may find things just right, or....
[...]

Carl
Yes, Carl, as I mentioned to Greg, the company warned they may not fit all cars without some modification. They give measurements on their website and it will be close!

But husband has a contingency plan in case they don't bolt right up, because there will be no more of this business of the lug bolts supporting the weight of the car and stresses of cornering.

We won't know how they fit until the spacers arrive and we try them on the car. At that time I'll post if they fit or not and what modifications are needed if any.
(';')
 
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Old 08-29-2014, 11:48 AM
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Default Rubber Crumbs

There are rubber crumbs scattered all over our garage. There were rubber crumbs all over the Sears shop. There were rubber crumbs on Wart's back bumper. I'm finding rubber crumbs in Nix's wheel well lips! Toad is probably dusted liberally with them too but who cares? They're Everywhere!!

Some are the size of potato chips all the way down to course dust. When I pull on the bigger ones there are stress cracks like an old rubber band; AND THAT'S FROM INSIDE THE TIRE!!

All those black spots you see are rubber crumbs, and there are Many you can't see.

I wonder how long we will be finding these.........

(That is a husband-built air pressure regulator made for painting amid rubber crumbs.)
(';')
 
Attached Thumbnails Rolling Stock:  Safety At Speed-regulatorrubbercrumbs.jpg   Rolling Stock:  Safety At Speed-morerubbercrumbs.jpg  
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Old 08-29-2014, 02:38 PM
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How deep is the ocean, how high is the sky......

Way back when, not too longa fter I got my almost new 88 Tbird, that'd be 89 or 90, I got T boned in Sacramento. A gal in alittle Asian car had been to the legislature to lobby fr some insurance thing... Fortunately, she was insured. The already a bit battered little bug left under it's own power,. Well, no one was hurt so that is what counts. But, it was in the middle of summer and I drove home sans passenger car door glass. The T'bird's AC was good, but not enough to cool all of the Sacramento river valley.

Repairs took an eon. but, were very well done. Used door in the correct color fit right in.
But, kept finding those little glass crystals for the rest of the time that the TBird lived here. The collison shop did a nice job of detailing the car for return to me.

Did a little stop light drag with a Bimmer. i guess he is tryiong to cool the area as his doors got blown off. Naughty, naughty....

Carl

.
 
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Old 08-29-2014, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by JagCad View Post
[...]
Did a little stop light drag with a Bimmer. i guess he is tryiong to cool the area as his doors got blown off. Naughty, naughty....

Carl
HAHA!! Good for you, Carl!!
<neener neener neeener>
(';')
 
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Old 09-03-2014, 12:53 AM
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Default Parts Beginning To Arrive

Ya know how it is when you're waiting for something to arrive? It seems like your stuff will NEVER get to you. That's how it's been around here this past week.

Today some of the most critical parts have come on the Big Brown Truck (United Parcel Service; UPS).

No spacers yet (maybe tomorrow) but the rear lug bolt in regular and long variety is here. Only one of each just in case the longer one doesn't work the regular one is here for insertion without waiting. Whichever one works best will soon be joined by 9 others to make 2 complete sets.

Front wheel seals came today as did spring-over shock absorbers, although their individual shock absorber boxes were much worse for their trip.

Proper washers for the chrome lug nuts (chrome nuts are still in the pipeline) also arrived. Not a single washer was the proper size.

If the washers fit snugly around the nut they were Very loose on the rim. Some were loose on both (that was a scary find!). Some of the washers bore scratches and scars, not to mention warping, because they just plain didn't fit and have become conical from being forced into a hole that was too big! (First photo)

The replacement washers are fully 1/8 inch thick (twice the thickness of the existing washers), fit both the lug nuts and depressions in the rim *Perfectly*! The second photo below shows the variety of fit -- or lack of it.

Hopefully you can make out that left washer (no nut) in the second photo (two lower holes are empty) is sloppy for both nut and hub, the right one is too small for the hub but fits the nut well. The center nut/washer is a perfect fit for both nut and rim and will hold the rim to the hub Much more securely than before. In fact, I'll go out on a limb and say no wheels since the car was new have fit as snugly as these Tear Drops will when I'm finished with them.

Already sitting on my desk are longer-than-standard front lug studs, which require disassembly of the rotor/caliper to install. That operation will come later.

Below, some new photos for your entertainment:
(';')
 
Attached Thumbnails Rolling Stock:  Safety At Speed-scarredwasherlooseonnut.jpg   Rolling Stock:  Safety At Speed-rimwashers.jpg   Rolling Stock:  Safety At Speed-correctwashers.jpg   Rolling Stock:  Safety At Speed-lugstuds-frontwheelseal.jpg   Rolling Stock:  Safety At Speed-spring-overshocks.jpg  

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Old 09-03-2014, 09:45 AM
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Neat. I admire the attention to detail. Do it right, do it once, or....

McGaard is an old firm with an excellent reputation for their products.

Yup, I did not understand, how you could fit new lug studs to the front hubs without removing them. Odd Brit tech writing??? Or just that common language separating us???

I am awaiting Front Line via Amazon to protect Coco from fleas for the rest of the summer. I think it's coming USPS, usually faster than UPS???

But, a drive belt for my "restified Lauson powered Roto Hoe". Seller lied, it isn't a 32, but a late 50's or early 60's production!! It was missing it's air cleaner. But, I found a cylindrical paper filter at ACE. Mount design and execution in progress.

Briggs crank rachet issue remains to be solved. End in sight. It did pop a couple of times.
 

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