Aha, just what I was gonna start looking for! So the solenoid can be separated from the starter? Anyone ever tried an in-situ job? Haha just thinking aloud.

Thanks Grant!

 

I can add that a mechanicaly seized starter can result in electrical mayhem. been there. In situ and on the bench!!!


But, Nathan, you are not there yet.


Someway, somehow access to the starter solenoid is a must.


You suppose your battery is not providing 12+ volts???

Keep plugging.


Carl

 

Yep, failed.

When you do get it out, look at the face of that solenoid where the 2 studs are. At 90deg to each stud is a large blob of solder.

One of those solder blobs contains the Red/White wire connector.

The other one is just a blob completing the earth path of those windings.

Now, these blobs are the 2 ends of the solenoid internal wiring. There is a rather heavy single strand of wire inside each solder blob.

My HE has a hissy starter, mainly when hot, and very intermitant, so when the engine was out, easiest way to get the starter out by the way, I noticed that those 2 blobs were cracked, as in OLD solder gone off. So I simply heated the BIG solder iron, and "reflowed" the solder. That starter never worked so well when reinstalled.

 

Got to the solenoid, that heat shield is held on my 2 nuts, there's another one on the front, access is by feel with a ratchet, and from underneath the car, took a while, gave my forearm a workout too, anyways, just incase someone out there is also battling.

The front of the solenoid now is in reach, can't make head or tail of what it is that I'm feeling, seems like some wire routes to the front of the car? A heavy one too... There's a rubber cap over one of the terminals, wont budge, heavy wire comes in and goes out from the terminal under the cap. smaller wire seems to attach onto the right of the solenoid face when viewed from the front, dont know whats holding it though.

Ha! I'm starting to see this motor being removed...

 

Nathan:


Yup, The medical profession calls it palpitation. Feel your way!!


Think as you "feel".


1. Small wire and post on the solenoid. That is the one from the relay on the fire wall. Jumping 12v to it should get a crank. If not, open wire, bum solenoid or even bum starter.


2. Large post. The terminus of the cable from the fire wall post. Big 12v numbers should be there.


Have you given the starter a hefty whack?


At this stage, I'd probably just bite the bullet and yank that thing outta there for a bench test. Drastic, agreed, but will work. No question. Starter and/or solenoid good or bad!!! Fix clear. As good as it gets.


Cqrl


Carl

 

Aha, our madness even has a name, how quaint.

I'm starting to want to just get this thing out of here, how to remove the starter motor though? Grant you mentioned a subframe having to be lowered, how do I go about this?

The heavy wire running via the starter to the front, what's this for? I'd love to know...

Many thanks.

 

Alternator and ballast coil relay, any chance one of these are causing trouble... I'd just worked on the alternator... Which is why I've got a funny feeling about it... But she cranked after the alternator job, but since shes run she won't crank again...

 

Sounds like the alternator output wire. Runs forward thru a metal tube

Cheers
DD

 

Not sure what you mean by "ballast coil relay".

The alternator shouldn't cause a 'no crank' situation....unless it isn't working and the battery goes dead

Cheers
DD

 

Thanks Doug, that clears it all up, the Haynes (yes I know) manual refers to a ballast coil relay, I haven't heard of one either, or know of its existence...

Well I checked the light went out after I worked on it...

Time to get this thing out, I've got access to a ball-joint separator, can't be that bad, I need this car to run, it's my daily drive.

What's the best way to go about getting this critter out, I'm reluctant to refer to this Haynes manual.

Any help or advice is much appreciated. I believe the solenoid is stuck or inoperative.

 

It's been a few years for me so the details are fuzzy. Hopefully others will chime in.

On a LHD car you need to drop the RH side exhaust and remove the various heat shields to access the starter....which isn't easy. *Maybe* lower the steering rack as well....can't remember for sure.

On a RHD car the tower of the steering rack will be in the way. Not sure how that is typically dealt with. Remove the rack?

The top bolt takes a 7/16" 12-point socket...on an extension with a swivel. Don't round off the head or you're day will really be ruined. The lower bolt is a standard head.

Access is very tight.

That's all I can remember, sorry.

Cheers
DD

 

In thinking about it I think it refers to something on the pre-HE engines...perhaps the rather elaborate ballast resistor on the ignition system? There was probably a tie-in between it and the starter circuit.

A problem with both Haynes and the Jaguar manuals is that they often don't clearly delineate pictures and text pertaining to pre-HE systems from pictures and text for HE systems.

Cheers
DD

 

Getting the RHD starter out is a pain.

If the RH engine exhaust pipe will come out of the manifold, much easier.

The steering rack will need to be at least lowered, or removed, to get the pinion head out of the way.

The metal bracket that is welded to the cradle for the rack to mount to, is simply in the way if that exhaust pipe has to stay, hence the lowering of that cradle to get that bracket out of the way.

The top starter bolt, as Doug has said, is special, and the correct 12 point socket here is mandatory. It is accessed from under the car, with a LONG extension bar, and a swivel joint at the socket end, then slide that bar up alongside the transmission, and be patient. Visual is limited, but it is doable. The lower bolt is a standard bolt, and I think it was simple to get at.

When you get that far, and start taking that starter out, remember it is HEAVY, and I mean HEAVY, especially when on your back.

Lowering that cradle is messy and fraught with many things that can go sooooo wrong, so if that pipe comes out of the manifold, good. If not, we will sort the lowering.

 

Brilliant, thanks Doug and Grant, I'll start when I can, I'm gonna need to go get the special socket though, it is the one size my Grandpa doesn't have. Doesn't sound that bad, the manifold pipe came loose on the other bank, so hoping for a repeat on this side.

 

Nathan:


YUP. one of the starters I wrestled with was an older ACDECO.
Quite similar to what I believe is in your car. It was too much for me to support and guide with one arm and start bolts with the other!!!
Son managed. cooked it as well!!!


Back to a much lighter GR unit. within my ability. doe, so far, so good.


Were I in your shoes, a GR would be indeed tempting.


You might consider a harness and rope to topside to control the thing on it's way out and back in. I had one at the ready. But, with luck, son dropped by and did it.


Access in each of my cars much better than what seems to be the case in yours.


My Haynes manual did a great job of confusing me. The information is there, but the organization is p... pore.


Odd that Jaguar would connect the alternator at the solenoid. The firewall post seems more logical. But, electricaly, it works. Might just be more convenient in the crowded engine bay.


Ballast/resistor seems almost redundant. I've never liked the concept.
reduces useful voltage with the excess lost as heat. But, used a lot and I've no better idea.


One way of using them in ignition is out of the ignition circuit while cranking and in for the run. Another is in at all times.


Whether that needs attention in your car can be determined topside.
Look near the coils. Any "gadget' wired in from the ignition switch to coil+?


Hopefully not present in your application and thusly, one less connector to deal with down under...


You are in more than capable hands with Doug and Grant tutoring you.


Gotta do market errand today before it gets hot, which it will...


Carl

 

Many have gone to the gear reduction starters with great success.

Years ago I went to GR starters on both my V12 XJS and my Ser III XJ6. In both cases I had to remove the starter and fabricate shims to get a proper mesh to the flywheel. No big deal on the XJ6 but having to go thru the routine twice on a V12 isn't so easy to shrug off. Very few others seem to have this issue with the GR starters. It was just my luck that both mine needed the extra work.

Also, on the V12, I had to modify the wiring and cables a bit to complete the installation. Again, no big deal...but extra steps.

My current V12 already has the later, smaller starter used by Jaguar.




When you finally find what you need you feel a bit like Sherlock Holmes



I think that's it, Carl. Although many older cars did it that way. I'm working on a '64 Corvette, for example, with that sort of arrangement.

Anyhow....

My current V12 project suggests to me that Jaguar was having a hard time 'packaging' the wiring bundles on the V12 cars. The RH firewall stud (nearest the battery on LHD cars) is fully occupied to the point where the nut can barely be installed. Meanwhile, only one wire on the LH firewall stud. I made a couple minor changes here....but Jaguar could've just as easily utilized the LH stud to spread out the "+" voltage supply wires. As it stands there is a giant octopus-like clump of wires cramed into a very small area at the rear of the engine and above the RH firewall stud.

Maybe the RHD drive cars have a more attractive and efficient harness layout? I dunno.

Or maybe the existing layout was somehow best for Jaguar in terms of actually assembling the cars? I dunno.


Cheers
DD

 

Thanks for the replies Carl and Doug, I'm gonna stick with the original starter, just wanna get her on the road again as she's my only car.

Re the firewall posts Doug, mine has 3 wires on the LH post, and maybe 3 or 4 on the RH post. Can't vouch for it being totally original.

 

Nathan:


No matter if the car gets unfused power from the fire wall posts or the stud on the solenoid. all interconnected. Same for the heavy brown output wire from the alternator. all wind their way to battery + post.


Looks like a "starterectomy" In the works. Is there a reliable starter rebuild or exchange facility in your neck of the woods.


If not, a refresh is doable. So long as the armature is not shorted.
and even that might be overcome. A competent electric motor rebuild shop can handle a rewind.


Doug:


You are right. USA critters source battery + at the solenoid post.
Fire wall posts are Jaguar thing. Neat, I think. A bus bar of sorts.


Carl

 

Playing with new "toy". Older Olympus 1.3 camera. It didn't like my 4 generic 'cheapo" AA batteries. delighted with 4 "expensive" Lithium batteries. Four bucks for the camera, ten for the batteries. Way of life nowadays.


New phone service got my kids in a frenzy!! Messages go to my old phone answering machine at times, and at others to a remote machine?? Choose or monitor both?


I have orders to keep my cell on me at all times!!!


Carl

 

I'll attempt to do most if not all the work myself, I love learning new things, and this Double Six sure keeps that side of me occupied!

Grant, you mentioned the lowering of the front subframe, what parts make up the subframe (sorry I'm new to suspension)and how would one go about doing this, i.e supporting it etc? Many thanks!

Carl, you're not alone, dad has an old camera that he used for weddings, quite the fancy thing in its day, he lent it so a friend and yeah... Somehow the eye-piece isn't clear anymore, looks like something is obstructing it... He's given me the go-ahead to see what I can do, that's a little fun for when I'm finished with the starter.