Some of you may know that the XK8 i bought off ebay late february has a number of problems.
My problem is that, as the scale of the deception, and the level of calculation involved in the sale of this car becomes apparent, i'm finding that i am becoming less able to give the seller the benefit of any doubt regarding it's condition.
I must admit i'm tempted to take legal action if i can, although if it's likely to cost me as much, if not more than, i can expect to recover, then perhaps i should just accept what's happened and get on with trying to make the best of it.
The car was registered Sept 2000, was advertised as having covered 69,000 miles, and i bought it on 24th February this year, so i've had it coming up to 12 weeks next Friday. I paid £3,840 for it.
In view of the fact the car has no service history whatsoever, and also no DVLA MOT history whatsoever, i think it will be a miracle if the mileage has not been seriously wound back from somewhere in excess of 130,000, although under the circumstances, i may never be able to prove it.

The car has covered 555 miles under my ownership, 250 of which was getting it home the day i bought it.

I've spent about £500 on it so far, and i estimate that to get it sorted properly will cost about another £1,200 to £1,500, and that's without getting the drivers door and o/s rear wing re-sprayed, plus some rust patches sorted, to get the bodywork to the standard of "stunning" it was described as being in by the seller.
Bit by bit the penny in my head has been dropping with this car, as i gradually figure out exactly what's taken place and why.
The seller admitted to previously owning " a few of these" (XK8's), and i don't think there's any possibility he could have been oblivious to the faults on this car.
The car had a fresh MOT 28th January, and had apparently covered only 19 miles from then till the day i bought it.
As a guide, this is what's wrong with it:

Rust in and under footwells on both sides
Windscreen washer motor dead ... (since replaced)
Excess play in o/s/f inner track rod
o/s/f upper wishbone bush collapsed .... advised track rod end balljoint may also be defective
o/s/f tyre illegal- inner tread worn away ...............may not have been when i bought it, but was by the time i had it inspected 3 weeks and 300 miles later.

Each of the above are all MOT failures.

Other problems:

N/s/r tyre down to 3mm ....... suggests misalignment or wrong camber at rear.
Auxillary belt and idler required
Thermostat housing leaking
Gearbox return hose leaking
Cam cover gasket and front cover seals leaking
No instrument lights ........ (since fixed)
Possible steering rack defective ......not sure yet
Rear brake pads down to backing
Front discs warped ......( fitted new discs and pads)
L/h/f ABS harness not working
ABS and ASC not working .......could be just harness, and/or ABS module
ABS and check engine lights not working, plus a few others.
Climate control illumination bulb not working
Neither remote control working ..... tried to buy a new one from the Indy that inspected the car, but the car refused to accept the programming.
Driver's door doesn't close flush, probably due to misalignment from repaired and resprayed front wing or door, hence the overspray on the door. Won't T-cut out, needs respraying, as does the o/s rear wing.
Wrong battery in car, 45/420 ..... (since replaced with 100/830 Varta).

I've probably missed a few, but you get the idea.

It took 5 weeks to get the second set of keys, and i'm beginning to think he kept them until the end of what may be a 28 day grace period, in case he had to recover the car (steal it back and dispose of it), so that the car could not be presented as evidence in any action.
It took over 9 weeks to get the log book, and i'm thinking that this may be because he didn't want me to contact the previous owner, in case i discovered the true mileage, so just didn't send off the log book till after the 28 days.

Can anyone tell me if i would have any legal recourse at this point?

 

I can't speak to UK law, but here in the colonies you'd have little recourse unless the seller gave written statement that all of these things were in perfect working order and that the car was rust free. Being that all of the problems would have been discoverable prior to the purchase as easily as they were post-purchase, and it's reasonable to assume that a 12 year old car would have it's share of wear and tear I don't think you've got much of a case.

 

The car was described in the Ebay advert as having "stunning bodywork", and that the only things wrong with it were that the heater didn't work and there was some wear to the driver's seat.
To me that would count as a written statement, but despite that, i figured that due to the amount of time elapsed since purchase, any case may be debatable.
My knowledge of the law in these matters is pretty patchy though, so i guess all i can do is ask if anyone would know better.
I knew so little about these cars when i went to buy it, i couldn't even find the battery.
I've been of a mind that perhaps some of these issues were unknown to the seller, and it's just my bad luck, but the more i think about it, right down to the delay with the keys and log book, makes me think it was a setup from start to finish.

 

Sadly, pepole selling cars are the biggest liars in the world...even worse than politicians and lawyers. When I bought my '97 from an Ebay seller (a USN officer, at that) I was too ignorant of the issues these cars have, and I've paid dearly for it. Most I would not have recognized right away, but the fact that the headlights didn't work without considerable manipulation of the combo switch meant my seller was an absolute liar and *******.

He made sure I would pick the car up at mid day so I wouldn't notice the light problem. Then, of course, he tried to feign ignorance. All I could do is get him blown off Ebay. Karma will take care of the rest.

 

Did you have many problems with your car aside from the headlights?

When the guy picked me up from the train station to go see the car, he informed me that it was in fact in the garage, because the handbrake had stopped working ( 4 weeks and 19 miles after it's MOT ).
I think now that it was because he didn't want to take me to his home, to avoid me and the car turning back up on his door step a few days later.

It was parked on a gravel area in front of the garage and the mechanics gave me the impression they didn't want anything to do with it, so asking to put it up on the ramps was going to be a waste of time. It sits too low for me to get under it.
In hindsight i should have insisted on an AA/RAC inspection, but i don't think it would have done me any good, because if he knew how much was wrong with it, and i'm certain he did, the car would have been somewhere else with some excuse, when the inspection was due to take place.
I approached the whole affair trying to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, but the events and circumstances have gradually slotted in to place to the point where i'm just not able to anymore.
I think it's particularly sad that so many people are able to behave in that kind of manner with so little conscience, if any, and i can't even warn others through Ebay, because i left him positive feedback while still ignorant of the car's true condition.
On the upside, i've always wanted a jag, and now i've got one, even if it needs a lot of work before i can drive it.
And it is a 2000 with some kind of pack on it, ie: rain sensing wipers, chrome headlight trim, headlight washers, heated seats etc.
When i look on Ebay at other XK's i see many older ones with much higher price tags, although many don't seem to sell, but i think if i tried to get a 2000 that really did have 69,000 on it, id probably have to pay around what this one will cost me by the time it's sorted, about £6,000 plus whatever the bodywork costs.
The actual mileage, if i ever can find out what it is, may not be so important with these cars. The engines are quite robust.
That doesn't excuse how carefully conceived i believe this sale was though, and there should be some way of re-dress, even by Ebay themselves if it becomes obvious that the seller deliberately concealed serious problems with the car which may not be detected in the absence of a mechanic, or under the circumstances the car was viewed.
After all, if you buy a car at a real auction, they may not look over it too carefully, but if they find something they'll tell you.
I can't even be sure i'd want to give it back ( might sound crazy, but you get attached lol) , because i like the colour of both inside and outside, and there's no telling what problems a different car would have.
I guess it's just the dishonesty of it all that gets me, and it's to that end, that i'm tempted to take legal action if there's a reasonable chance of re-dress.

 

Caveat emptor. I don't think you have any recoarse. It seems like you hade several red flags go up during all of this. Biggest issue is you didn't insist on having the car inspected which would have prevented a ton of your headaches. And when speaking of condition, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Even the mother of the ugliest baby thinks the baby is the most beautiful child on Earth.

Your XK unfortunately sounds like it fell victim to a previous owbner who could not afford to keep in proper running order. As with any car that is expensive to repair/maintain, the total bill can get out of hand rather quickly if you don't keep up on the repairs as they happen.

My XK was in good shape when I bought it with only 34k miles on it over 2 years ago and I have put $$ into it in just general maint. Nothing out of the ordinary except for one leak in the spider coolant hose in the back of the engine. Other repairs have been normal: front struts and all bushings, all convertible top hoses, trans flush, brakes and rear tires. All of which are normal wear and tear items on a 10 year old car but if left for one big repair would have me taking a second mortgage LOL

 

There's certainly no excuse for the seller being dishonest but there's nothing more expensive than cheap Jag :-)

I don't know what the used Jag market is like in the UK, but just roughing-out some numbers (and making a couple of assumptions in doing so) and viewing from a USA-market perspective, it looks like you bought the car for about 30-40% below the market value of a known-good example.

If my price comparison is accurate...and it might not be....then the pricing alone should've been a bit of a clue as to what you were buying but, beyond that, and as you obviously realize, you've got that 30-40% savings to put towards repairs.

But, anyhow, if it'll make you feel any better , whenever I buy any used car I automatically assume it'll at least a few dollars spent to bring it up-to-snuff...battery, major servicing, brake pads, that sort of routine stuff.... plus actual repair of at least a couple items. And some of the items you've mentioned are not serious and could be expected on most any 12 y/o car.

My heart goes out to you and damnation to dishonest sellers. But, in the grand scheme of things, you probably got what you paid for and after you sort thru the fix-it list you'll have a great Jag to enjoy :-)

Cheers
DD

 

Roadhogg
My heart goes out to you, but Doug is right, in the US that's about a $6000.00 XK which is pretty much at the bottom of the value of these cars over here. Buying one of that age you would almost have to assume some repair. If you bought it for a everyday driver it may not be the car for you, a newer model maybe more prudent. If you bought it as hobby car it could be the right car for a DIY. Over here dishonest dealers or sellers are hard to get any compensation out of they can lie and cheat and still not be prosecuted.

 

I agree with the others that there is probably not much to be gained by going after the seller.

You should be able to get the old MOT records here -
Check your vehicle's MOT status and history online : Directgov - Motoring
which will give you a better handle on the mileage.

 

Roadhogg;

I flew up to San Jose (near San Francisco) to pick up the car, discovered the headlight problem as I was driving on the crowded freeway at 70 mph. I had to plan my trip back to Vegas for daylight only driving. Within a week of getting back I found I needed to replace the cam chain tensioners, front rotors, and a few others. Pretty quickly the mirror started losing fluid, and I could hear the rear speakers crackling.

It's a good thing I didn't have to depend on it for transportation. Over the last couple of years all the typical front end stuff has been replaced, but that's expected. Oh...and the "pristine" paint work required a complete respray of the rear deck.

Sadly, now that I have it nearly perfect I hardly ever drive it. I hardly drive at all unless it's to take the family on the road, and that requires a Suburban and a wad of cash for gas. Still....if I could hand it off to some lucky soul I'd be hunting for that "perfect" 2003-4 XKR.

 

I am a Used car dealer here stateside.

I will tell you this. At least in this country you HAVE to give the seller a federal buyers guide, which they must sign, specifically stating whether the car is AS-IS or if any warranty coverage is included. You must also spell out any and all warranty coverage. I fully disclose anything I know the car needs, and I have dealt with may people on this forum.

If you buy the car as-is. It's too bad so sad, u own it, period end of story.

AS my late father used to say to people, he would point to the traffic light at the corner and say. Let me explain the meaning of as is to you. If you buy this car and you pull out of here, and you get to that light over there, and the car breaks in half, you own both halves.

Simply put, used cars, especially cheap older ones are a risk. This it where it PAYS to get a good inspection done by a competent tech. You have all the right in the world to inspect it before you buy it, but nothing to say after you do.

Take care,

George

 

did you check it's MOT history here?

Check your vehicle's MOT status and history online : Directgov - Motoring

do an MOT history request, it'll give you the docs back to 2005 and the mileage, let's know how that goes...

 

Hi Roadhog ,
I have to agree on most that's been said I'm afraid , £3840 should have raised alarm bells , that price wouldn't even buy a new engine for an XK8 , the faults you list will be simple and cheap enough to sort out , the mileage on XK's isn't easy to "clock" , as an example , I bought my 98 XK8 from an XK specialist nearly eight years ago for £15,000 , I've probably spent about £10,000 on it over the last few years on upgrades and improvements , so , just over a thousand pound a year to drive about in what was a £50,000+ car when new seems like brilliant value to me , luckily I can do most of the work on her myself so the only real expense is parts and petrol , I reckon if I'd bought a Eurobox every couple of years instead of the Jag , I'd have spent much more on plain, boring cars than ever I have on the Jag ,
if you need some help on sorting your car out properly and at a reasonable price PM me , I have lots of contacts who specialise in XK's , one of which is not very far from your home ,

Hope this helps ,

Nik

 

Wow, so much common sense from everyone, and i can't fault a word of it.
Luckily it's not my daily driver, and so far my 97 Mondeo is keeping me mobile.
This time last year i was earning £1500 a month more than i needed as a lorry driver, but this year the place i'm working is quiet, and i'm struggling to find the money to get the bits i need to get it on the road.
That's not the car's fault, and i did expect to have to spend some money on it, if not quite as much as it's going to need.
I've got an eye operation coming up the end of this week, once i'm healed and back at work, i'll try to find more work elsewhere and make more progress with it.
Between you you've convinced me it's time to shut up and get on with it as best i can.
Sorry to hear of your experince oldjaglover, sounds not too dissimilar from mine. Hindsight and knowledge are wonderful things aren't they?

That one tickled me

So true, and i've seen some ugly cars in my time. Luckily this car isn't one of them, and everyone in my neighbourhood, including me, seems to like it. Undoubtedly one of the car's saving graces, which adds to the desire to drive it, and the frustration you feel when you can't.

Sean B, it was the DVLA's MOT records i was referring to, it has no history at all prior to the curent one. I still haven't figured out how this is possible yet, but may be the result of the sellers efforts to disguise the true mileage using private plates.
I'd be happy to PM you with all the details (Doc. refs of the old and new log book, plus the two known registration numbers for this car) if you want, but the car is invisible.
Thank you guys, Mikey, oldjaglover, 2002XK8Orlando, Doug, RCSign, Norri, androulakis, Sean B and NikasilNik.
Kudos to all of you

 

Question - is mileage kept in the car's ECU and can it be read by computer or dealer?

 

The Jag Indy i had the car inspected at said they might be able to tell me if the mileage has been clocked via the diagnostics.
Afterwards they said that facility was only available on later models, but i don't know which year it starts from.
Somebody else might.

 

If it helps, I've seen people spend ten or fifteen times as much on a car that turns out to be much worse than what you've ended up with. Your car sounds like it can all be put right with a bit of time and money. It's not your main ride so the work can be done as circumstances permit. Keep us posted on your progress.

 

I've got a rule for buying used cars. Budget for all fluids and filters to be changed. Unless you see otherwise include consumables such as brakes and tires. That can get a bit pricy on a Jag but you can do most of it and it's a great way to get to know your car. This forum will lead to aftermarket parts and fluids that will save a bundle. Good luck, you got it at a fixrupper price.

 

I will keep people posted Mikey, i don't think i'll be able to avoid it considering i'm bound to be asking stupid questions to resolve issues, or uncertanties about how to fix it.
I've decided to find out if my local council has a garage i can rent for a few months, so the weather won't matter and i won't have to worry about passers by stealing anything that's not nailed down.

You're spot on there RJag, no choice but to become a fixrupper

 

Hang in there, mate. The good news, as many have pointed out, is that you purchased the vehicle at a bargain-basement price. The other good news is that you do not have to depend upon it as your daily driver. That gives you the time to bring it up to the condition you want it to be in....

I've learned over the years to always keep a minimum of $3,000 in reserve as a restoration/maintenance fund for any used vehicle I decide to purchase. I try to do my due diligence on every vehicle I'm interested in to ensure that I will need only a fraction of those funds to get the vehicle up to my standards. If I do not have the time to do my due diligence in full, I simply walk away from the deal. That formula has worked well for me for decades now....

Best of luck going forward. You will definitely get the help you need in bringing your car up to your standards from the fantastic, highly-knowledged folks here on this forum. That will be the saving grace that turns your car from a questionable purchase into a vehicle that you will ultimately be very proud of....