Stainless Steel trim rings for Montreal 20" wheels...
#1
01-25-2010, 05:39 PM
#2
01-25-2010, 06:57 PM
Veteran member
I remember reading about a BBS trim ring source, but I can't seem to find it now.
I found this on roadfly.com, from member SanDiegoMac, and relates to the BBS wheel itself, but perhaps not the trim ring. Maybe call BBS directly for the rings?
I found this on roadfly.com, from member SanDiegoMac, and relates to the BBS wheel itself, but perhaps not the trim ring. Maybe call BBS directly for the rings?
About a week ago I called the BBS wheel facility in Atlanta and had a long and interesting conversation with the manager there. I learned alot about the Jaguar BBS wheels and will pass some of it along here.
First, the BBS wheel designs used on the Jaguar cars are owned by Jaguar. The same is true of other automobile manufacturers such as Porsche, BMW, etc. That means that the Automobile marque controls the design and BBS only manufactures it for them, same as any other OEM vendor. That is why you can only buy them new from Jaguar.
This also explains why they can only be repaired through a Jaguar dealer. BBS' contract to repair them is exclusive to Jaguar, since, if for no other reason, Jag controls the parts needed (they own the design).
Thus, Return Authorization Numbers (RMAs) are only issued to Jaguar dealers (by contract with Jaguar) for Jaguar style wheels. Any authorized Jaguar dealer can request, and will be issued, an RMA to return wheels to have them repaired.
BBS, upon receipt of the wheels, inspects them prior to disassembly. The rims (barrels) are checked for round and true as well as cracks, as are the spiders (spokes and center hub). The spiders cannot be replaced or repainted. They must be serviceable in order for the wheel to be repaired. If the spider is good, the wheel is disassembled. Included in the one fixed charge to the dealer is a new barrel (rim) if required, a new polished trim ring, and all new titanium bolts (these are a one use, one torquing bolt). I don't know the cost of these bolts for Jag wheels since they don't sell them, but similar bolts for similar wheels can cost $10 each! The wheel is reassembled, checked and shipped back to wherever the RMA says to ship it. (They don't even clean them--send them in with brake dust, and you get the brake dust back.)
All Jag dealers are charged the same price--what, I don't know, and can mark it up to whatever they want. Apparently there is no guideline from Jag on what to charge the customer.
I went into my friendly local Jaguar dealer and spoke with my friendly Jaguar dealer Parts Manager about this situation. I hammered pretty hard, but nicely, to get a good deal for the Forum members that have BBS wheels in need of repair, or simply need new trim rings. After some negotiating he agreed to charge $385 to handle the paper work and get the RMA number, including BBS' charge for the repair. But, the owner of the wheel must ship it directly to BBS (without the tire on it, of course!) and it will be shipped directly back to him by BBS after it is repaired.
If anybody wants to have their BBS wheels repaired in this way, email me and I will explain how to contact the dealer's Parts Manager to obtain the RMA number and get instructions on how and where to ship the wheel(s). He will accept credit cards over the phone, or by email.
First, the BBS wheel designs used on the Jaguar cars are owned by Jaguar. The same is true of other automobile manufacturers such as Porsche, BMW, etc. That means that the Automobile marque controls the design and BBS only manufactures it for them, same as any other OEM vendor. That is why you can only buy them new from Jaguar.
This also explains why they can only be repaired through a Jaguar dealer. BBS' contract to repair them is exclusive to Jaguar, since, if for no other reason, Jag controls the parts needed (they own the design).
Thus, Return Authorization Numbers (RMAs) are only issued to Jaguar dealers (by contract with Jaguar) for Jaguar style wheels. Any authorized Jaguar dealer can request, and will be issued, an RMA to return wheels to have them repaired.
BBS, upon receipt of the wheels, inspects them prior to disassembly. The rims (barrels) are checked for round and true as well as cracks, as are the spiders (spokes and center hub). The spiders cannot be replaced or repainted. They must be serviceable in order for the wheel to be repaired. If the spider is good, the wheel is disassembled. Included in the one fixed charge to the dealer is a new barrel (rim) if required, a new polished trim ring, and all new titanium bolts (these are a one use, one torquing bolt). I don't know the cost of these bolts for Jag wheels since they don't sell them, but similar bolts for similar wheels can cost $10 each! The wheel is reassembled, checked and shipped back to wherever the RMA says to ship it. (They don't even clean them--send them in with brake dust, and you get the brake dust back.)
All Jag dealers are charged the same price--what, I don't know, and can mark it up to whatever they want. Apparently there is no guideline from Jag on what to charge the customer.
I went into my friendly local Jaguar dealer and spoke with my friendly Jaguar dealer Parts Manager about this situation. I hammered pretty hard, but nicely, to get a good deal for the Forum members that have BBS wheels in need of repair, or simply need new trim rings. After some negotiating he agreed to charge $385 to handle the paper work and get the RMA number, including BBS' charge for the repair. But, the owner of the wheel must ship it directly to BBS (without the tire on it, of course!) and it will be shipped directly back to him by BBS after it is repaired.
If anybody wants to have their BBS wheels repaired in this way, email me and I will explain how to contact the dealer's Parts Manager to obtain the RMA number and get instructions on how and where to ship the wheel(s). He will accept credit cards over the phone, or by email.
Last edited by H20boy; 01-25-2010 at 06:59 PM. Reason: added some conent...
#3
01-25-2010, 07:02 PM
Veteran member
When asked, "Can we buy just the rings from Jaguar"
No, none of the wheel parts are for sale independent of the repair done by BBS.
The reason for this is because of (a substantial) concern for the safety of any repaired wheels. The titanium bolts are cemented into the barrels when assembled and frequently strip the threads from the barrels when removed. Since the correct new bolts cannot be purchased, usually the non-BBS person repairing the wheels just cements the stripped bolts (or only the head, if that broke off) onto the wheel when they reassemble them--not a good thing.
I have personal experience with this whole operation since writing the above post. I purchased four BBS Milan wheels for my wife's S-Type from L.A. Wheel in Los Angeles. They buy used wheels and have them chromed and then resell them. Part of the chroming process, of course, involves dissasembling the wheels to chrome the spider and the barrel.
After receiving the wheels, I checked them for straightness. They were all out of true, by as much as 1/4 inch!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and a couple were not even round. The BBS tolerance for true is something like .006 or .008 of an inch.
Having spoken several times with the BBS repair facility manager, I called him and asked if he would do a special favor for me, pretty please, pretty please, and allow me to just send him the spiders since all the barrels were bent and would need to be replaced anyway. I thought I could save a good bit of shipping cost by doing it this way. All the spiders would fit into one wheel box instead of having to ship four individual, and heavy, wheel boxes.
He finally agreed, with the requirement that I include all of the bolts (about 15 or 21 per wheel) removed when I sent the spiders back to them. He wanted to be certain none of the bolts would be reused on any wheels. He also warned me that the bolts would probably be difficult to remove, might break, strip threads, etc.
I located the special socket required at a tool specialty store and started to work. HOLY CRAP!!! Difficult was an understatement. The intial attempt with a 1/2 inch breaker bar removed about a third of the bolts, some simply stripped the threads from the barrels. Next stage was a 1/2 inch impact wrench with 100 psi air pressure :-). About 2/3 of the remaining bolts either came out, stripped the inside of the bolt socket head, or simply broke the bolt head off the bolt. Each wheel had a few remaining bolts that were going to require "additional measures." I found some drill bits capable of drilling out titanium bolts and drilled out the remaining bolts, being very careful to not contact the spider's bolt holes, thus rendering them unservicable.
It was obvious that some of the removed bolts had previously been broken and were simply cemented back into place by L.A. Wheels, along with Loc Tite on the unbroken bolts. I also learned that they were over-torquing the bolts.
Finally, I took all the bolts, bolt pieces, etc., ensuring I had the proper number of bolt heads, put them in bags and shipped them with the spiders to BBS. Fortunately, BBS determined that all the spiders were straight and serviceable.
The Lesson: I'd never do this again!!! It is much easier, and cheaper (considering all the time, tools and effort) to just pay the extra freight charges and have BBS do the work.
Also, there is no other good, safe alternative, of which I am aware, to having BBS repair the wheels. The least expensive way I can find to accomplish this is have a Jag dealer that agree's to handle the paperwork (obtaining the Return Authorization Number, paying BBS, etc.) for a 20% markup (on what was the $250 BBS charge--don't know if this is the current price) while I take care of shipping the wheels back to BBS. They then ship them directly back to me when they are finished.
The reason for this is because of (a substantial) concern for the safety of any repaired wheels. The titanium bolts are cemented into the barrels when assembled and frequently strip the threads from the barrels when removed. Since the correct new bolts cannot be purchased, usually the non-BBS person repairing the wheels just cements the stripped bolts (or only the head, if that broke off) onto the wheel when they reassemble them--not a good thing.
I have personal experience with this whole operation since writing the above post. I purchased four BBS Milan wheels for my wife's S-Type from L.A. Wheel in Los Angeles. They buy used wheels and have them chromed and then resell them. Part of the chroming process, of course, involves dissasembling the wheels to chrome the spider and the barrel.
After receiving the wheels, I checked them for straightness. They were all out of true, by as much as 1/4 inch!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and a couple were not even round. The BBS tolerance for true is something like .006 or .008 of an inch.
Having spoken several times with the BBS repair facility manager, I called him and asked if he would do a special favor for me, pretty please, pretty please, and allow me to just send him the spiders since all the barrels were bent and would need to be replaced anyway. I thought I could save a good bit of shipping cost by doing it this way. All the spiders would fit into one wheel box instead of having to ship four individual, and heavy, wheel boxes.
He finally agreed, with the requirement that I include all of the bolts (about 15 or 21 per wheel) removed when I sent the spiders back to them. He wanted to be certain none of the bolts would be reused on any wheels. He also warned me that the bolts would probably be difficult to remove, might break, strip threads, etc.
I located the special socket required at a tool specialty store and started to work. HOLY CRAP!!! Difficult was an understatement. The intial attempt with a 1/2 inch breaker bar removed about a third of the bolts, some simply stripped the threads from the barrels. Next stage was a 1/2 inch impact wrench with 100 psi air pressure :-). About 2/3 of the remaining bolts either came out, stripped the inside of the bolt socket head, or simply broke the bolt head off the bolt. Each wheel had a few remaining bolts that were going to require "additional measures." I found some drill bits capable of drilling out titanium bolts and drilled out the remaining bolts, being very careful to not contact the spider's bolt holes, thus rendering them unservicable.
It was obvious that some of the removed bolts had previously been broken and were simply cemented back into place by L.A. Wheels, along with Loc Tite on the unbroken bolts. I also learned that they were over-torquing the bolts.
Finally, I took all the bolts, bolt pieces, etc., ensuring I had the proper number of bolt heads, put them in bags and shipped them with the spiders to BBS. Fortunately, BBS determined that all the spiders were straight and serviceable.
The Lesson: I'd never do this again!!! It is much easier, and cheaper (considering all the time, tools and effort) to just pay the extra freight charges and have BBS do the work.
Also, there is no other good, safe alternative, of which I am aware, to having BBS repair the wheels. The least expensive way I can find to accomplish this is have a Jag dealer that agree's to handle the paperwork (obtaining the Return Authorization Number, paying BBS, etc.) for a 20% markup (on what was the $250 BBS charge--don't know if this is the current price) while I take care of shipping the wheels back to BBS. They then ship them directly back to me when they are finished.
#4
01-25-2010, 07:10 PM
Veteran member
promise last post here... a link to a UK dealer of just the rings, and i'm done.
I also read on another forum (in 2010) that BBS will sell the rings individually. Who knows, I say contact them directly.
I also read on another forum (in 2010) that BBS will sell the rings individually. Who knows, I say contact them directly.
#5
01-25-2010, 07:22 PM
Veteran Member
I bought a pair from the following company in England. The cost was around 150 pounds a pc.,or around $225.00. I have not tried to replace them but the second site has the proceedure.
http://www.jagwheeltrims.co.uk/buy_online.html
http://forums.roadfly.com/forums/jag...8893108-1.html
For the cost the following company may have the better deal.
http://www.wheels-and-rims.com/cgi-bin/webc.cgi/car-rims.html?wheel_id=2438&sid=8LpJDk1kKEhXDWn-44107315827.5c
http://www.jagwheeltrims.co.uk/buy_online.html
http://forums.roadfly.com/forums/jag...8893108-1.html
For the cost the following company may have the better deal.
http://www.wheels-and-rims.com/cgi-bin/webc.cgi/car-rims.html?wheel_id=2438&sid=8LpJDk1kKEhXDWn-44107315827.5c
#6
01-25-2010, 10:50 PM
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Damon /Houston, Texas
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#7
01-26-2010, 11:28 PM
Veteran Member
Tire change?
I had no idea how these wheels were constructed but I also have Montreals on my car, just like those shown in the Roadfly link that has the article from Jaguar World Monthly. But how are tires changed with these types of wheel/rim assemblies? Do they have to be disassembled as shown in the article or can the tires be changed by keeping all of the pieces intact? Do typical tire shops know how to deal with these types of wheels?
Doug
Doug
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#8
01-27-2010, 07:08 AM
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#9
01-27-2010, 09:25 AM
Veteran Member
That is what I was hoping to hear--that it was not that big a deal for a typical tire shop. However, when I started googling "split rims tire change" I ended up finding discussion forums warning how dangerous it is to deal with these. For example a special "cage" was needed to protect against part violently flying off. There were numerous posts about people getting seriously injured dealing with split rims. I could not figure out if those posts were all "urban legends" or were they talking about an entirely different wheel than the ones used on the Jaguars?
Doug
Doug
#10
01-27-2010, 10:19 AM
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Damon /Houston, Texas
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That is what I was hoping to hear--that it was not that big a deal for a typical tire shop. However, when I started googling "split rims tire change" I ended up finding discussion forums warning how dangerous it is to deal with these. For example a special "cage" was needed to protect against part violently flying off. There were numerous posts about people getting seriously injured dealing with split rims. I could not figure out if those posts were all "urban legends" or were they talking about an entirely different wheel than the ones used on the Jaguars?
Doug
Doug
#12
01-27-2010, 04:07 PM
Veteran Member
I believe a a split rim is where there are two pcs. for the actual rim like a large truck or construction equipment. they require cages because of the danger of them exploding apart. I don't think the rim on the BBS wheels, that the tire is mounted on is split The centers are mounted to the rim. I think they are tree pcs rim, center, and trim ring.
#13
01-27-2010, 04:18 PM
Veteran Member
I believe a a split rim is where there are two pcs. for the actual rim like a large truck or construction equipment. they require cages because of the danger of them exploding apart. I don't think the rim on the BBS wheels, that the tire is mounted on is split The centers are mounted to the rim. I think they are tree pcs rim, center, and trim ring.
I was guessing (hoping) that there was nothing all that exotic or unusual about these wheels that would preclude a standard run-of-the-mill tire shop from performing tire repairs or replacement. That seems to be the case.
Doug
#14
01-27-2010, 11:24 PM
One note on the Jaguar BBS wheels
If they are bent more than the tiniest bit they are most likely NOT repairable even by BBS. The force that bent the wheel pulls the bolts which of course are attached through the spider to the barrel causing damage to the spider that can't be seen with the wheel assembled. You can see the damage to the bolts though to give you at least an idea whether they can be repaired or not. Just look at each bolt on your wheels and if you see even one that appears to be sticking out further than any other like it has come loose it has probably been forced out by an impact and the wheel wont be repairable. You can save your shipping money. If you hear a popping sound from any wheel when making a turn it is ruined beyond repair. About the only damage that BBS will repair on a consistent basis is simple curb damage to the trim ring, they just wont accept the liability for wheels damaged beyond this. Believe me, here in pothole country we pretty much quit sending the wheels in after getting 80% back unrepairable. Never buy wheels from an aftermarket wheel "rebuilder" as they never are "rebuilt". Insurance companies are notorious for "requireing" rebuilt wheels and I always force them into new wheels after checking the first 6 "rebuilt" wheels sent to me for installation that were all scrap metal with crappy welds and bends that could be seen from across the shop(140 feet).
#15
03-16-2010, 08:33 PM
BBS Detroit Wheel Repair
I have a 2001 XKR Silverstone and have been reading the threads in this section to learn about how to repair damaged trim rings on my 20 inch Detroit style wheels. I was able to get the trim rings from the UK wheel shop mentioned above (www.jagwheeltrims.co.uk) Thanks for the info. While the trim rings were expensive, they look great. I took them to a Wheels America shop to get the trim rings replaced, and they stripped the part of the rim where the air valve is screwed into these rims. Has anyone else ever experienced this type of problem? The hole is now too large, and I am trying to find a shop to heli-arc the hole and insert new threads. Any suggestions?
#16
03-18-2010, 06:40 AM
A lot of very good info...
I was once considering replacing the rings myself. I did find a wheel shop that said they would replace the rings for ~$130 a wheel (I provide the trim ring). But after reading about the nuances of the bolts and the parts of the wheel I am not sure I will do that.
Yes, I did go to Coventry West and actually held one of the trim rings in my hand, their price was ~$250 (I know $270 was mentioned earlier).
I recently bought new Nitto 555's all around. The tire guy said he could see where the wheel hit the pothole but the wheel itself did not look bent, and it did not appear to be bent when they balanced the tire.
I may consider sending them in at some point...
Yes, I did go to Coventry West and actually held one of the trim rings in my hand, their price was ~$250 (I know $270 was mentioned earlier).
I recently bought new Nitto 555's all around. The tire guy said he could see where the wheel hit the pothole but the wheel itself did not look bent, and it did not appear to be bent when they balanced the tire.
I may consider sending them in at some point...
#17
03-18-2010, 07:05 AM
I have a 2001 XKR Silverstone and have been reading the threads in this section to learn about how to repair damaged trim rings on my 20 inch Detroit style wheels. I was able to get the trim rings from the UK wheel shop mentioned above (www.jagwheeltrims.co.uk) Thanks for the info. While the trim rings were expensive, they look great. I took them to a Wheels America shop to get the trim rings replaced, and they stripped the part of the rim where the air valve is screwed into these rims. Has anyone else ever experienced this type of problem? The hole is now too large, and I am trying to find a shop to heli-arc the hole and insert new threads. Any suggestions?
By the way, I have these wheels and need two blanking plugs for the valve stem bolts, I can't seem to find them, anybody have a source?
#18
03-18-2010, 02:48 PM
The BBS Detroit rims are basically one piece with a center section that bolts in place and holds the stainless trim ring in place. I replaced a couple of these trim rings on my own car and it really was not any trouble. The bolts are Titanium and torque to 11 lb/ft. The original trim rings are glued in place with silicone. Make sure all of the silicone is cleaned off and use antisieze on the bolts.
