Back in to Prestige today re the brake issues
Story so far.......


04th Mar 2015 - Well, had the car in at Prestige today for checking a replacement door seal and also for juddering when braking.
All front n rear suspension components changed, front brakes reasonably new and seemingly in good order, new tyres, wheels balance and alignment done in the last 6 months or so.
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/xj...acking-137776/
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/xj...e-time-131373/

Dougie checked and confirmed we'd have to start by replacing the front pads and discs as the most likely culprit....warped discs probably.
So, booked in for next wednesday for front pads and discs around £220.00
Not bad really as I can buy the parts for £148 so a decent price for sure in my book

11th Mar 2015 - Had the car in at Prestige today and the front brake pads and discs were replaced with Pagid. Test drove the car and although being gentle for the first few miles to allow for bedding in, it certainly seems like the judder is gone.
I'm a bit surprised really as the pads and discs were almost new when I bought the car and also were Pagid, so I guess that either the bedding in procedure wasn't followed or they were faulty?
Anyhow, all good for now.


07th July 2015 - Well the car was booked in for Thursday but Prestige have rearranged, so it'll be next Tuesday now.
The brake judder is back and with a vengeance!!
As before, the suspension both front n rear has been replaced, new tyres, new pads n discs fitted around 4 months ago, done maybe 3k miles ( Pagid - which may be warped - need checked )
There's a slight shake from the steering wheel generally ( perhaps wheel bearings, although no noise and generally seem fine? )

If the discs are warped, they'll be replaced under Pagid's warranty.....If this is the case, I may pay to just renew the rears too, but I'll get them double checked first.
Any other suspension work or wheel bearings, should be covered under the warranty I took out, but we'll see......
Need to get this resolved as it's really bugging me now!

14th July 2015 - Well, had the car in at Prestige today and find as follows.....
Went for a test drive with Douglas and he suspected warped discs from the start, pretty bad judder.
I also pointed out the "grabbing effect" when reducing speed slowly that could be felt.....he suspected the rears for this issue.
The pads were getting low but the discs were worn ( there was a lip ) and undulations could be felt through the fingertips almost!

Took the wheels off and inspected, measured the discs for run out and they were warped, also checked the hubs for run out but they seemed in tolerance.
So.....after covering 7344 miles the discs were warped, under Pagid's 25/25 warranty ( 25 months or 25k miles ) they were replaced free of charge, no labour either obviously.

I gave Dougie the go ahead to change out pads and discs on the rear at my cost, which he did.
All caliper sliding pins etc greased and calipers cleaned, hub mating surfaces wire brushed / cleaned as required and refitted wheels.
Front pads and discs FREE under warranty
Labour to inspect and diagnose FREE
Supply and fit new Pagid pads and discs for rear £200

A car that now brakes smoothly as it should - PRICELESS
Not sure if I'm convinced ( just my sceptical nature I guess ) but time will tell
Thanks

10th November 2015 - Back onto this brake juddering issue once more.
I had a front set of Pagid quality discs n pads fitted, probably around 10 months or so ago, this seemed to cure the issue for a wee while, but it returned around 2-3 months ago.

Pagid offered up a new set of brake discs and pads under warranty and they were fitted and all was cured once more. At the same time I just went ahead and renewed the rear discs n pads too.....ALL DONE!
Well, the judder has returned once more with a vengeance, so into Prestige to get checked again........I mentioned my thoughts on hub run out and the Pagid rep came out to do a check, he confirmed his thoughts along these lines too, so.....

Looks like I'm getting new front hubs ( will try warranty route but I don't think these are covered! ) if not they'll be getting done anyway.
Depending on how this goes, I may elect to replace anti roll bar links and stabiliser bar too.
After all every other bush has ben replaced, new brakes all round, new tyres, new bubs so why not??
Kudos to Pagid, who said after this work has been completed they will supply another set of brake pads n discs to match up with the new hubs, can't fault them!!
After all this, I've asked Dougie to do an alignment check on it to true everything up.

Today - revisited this issue with Prestige and Pagid again today as its still ongoing, back again and with a vengeance once more.
Dougie from Prestige had arranged for the rep from Pagid to call up to see me / my car today, travelling from Bolton, so quite a distance of some 200 miles
Dean ( the Pagid rep ) spent the whole day on my car from approx 10am until around 4.30pm and we chatted about the problems whilst he checked her over. I made him aware of exactly what has been done, timescales, money spent and what's going on with the braking system, then we went for a test drive so he could see for himself.
Even from the passenger seat the shuddering was seen through the steering wheel and felt through the whole car.
After this the car was put up on the ramp, wheels off and into the brake system we went......I stayed close and chatted the whole day, curious to see what we would find.
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First, Dean checked once again for DTV ( Disc Thickness Variation ) on all 4 corners but none was found, so have to assume all discs are ok at this point.
We did note however that the rear pads seemed very very low, considering low mileage and short timescale on the vehicle, but we'll come back to that.

Starting at the front passenger side the caliper was removed and slider pins checked, all sliding nice n easy as they should, piston retracting quite easily too.
Front drivers side was similar although the bottom slider pin was a little corroded, so cleaned with emery paper, lubricated and replaced....piston also returned A ok.

Drivers rear was a different story.....slider pics removed but the bottom was stuck fast and difficult to remove, eventually coming out. Looks like the aluminium caliper was suffering somewhat from corrosion, especially the hole for the slider pin and rubber housing, see here.....

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This was all thoroughly cleaned and rubber / sliding pin re installed and tested all A ok.
The passenger side rear was similar although the issue wasn't as bad, fixed and replaced all A ok.

Dean sprung for a new set of Pagid pads to replace the worn out ones too.....pretty good so far!

Went for a test drive and found as follows.....
Before, the juddering was felt through the steering wheel and pedal, but also the whole car, Dean did mention at one point that the rear also seemed to be giving issues.
After the work..... the rear seemed absolutely 100% better, the judder was still there but more pronounced and definitely ALL from the front, so at least some headway was made.

Where we are now....... Dean wants to ( at Pagid's expense ) fit a brand new set of pads and dicsc on the front to see if that eliminates the issue?
I've told him it probably will, but only seems to last for a few months before returning.
I'm calling back in tomorrow to receive these fitted on to the car and see where we go from there??

His thoughts are.....although the main suspension bushings were replaced some 2 years ago and approx 30k miles they may again be out of spec, so that may be next....
It wasn't totally clear but sounded as if either Pagid or Prestige may pick up the tab for this if necessary, but we'll see.

Although I have had these issues on n off for some time, I genuinely do have to give kudos to Dougie from Prestige and Dean from PAGID for not walking away from this, as many others may have done, Superb.
More to come on this.......

 

When I had my Corvette, it was impossible to relieve the juddering. New pads, new rotors, correct break-in process. All for naught. One Vette forum member told me to get slotted rotors. Issue was gone.


Seems that certain cars will have this issue due to a non-uniform bedding in process. Even if you follow by the book, it still won't bed correctly causing heat spots and them the juddering. The slotted rotors eliminated this altogether. Just thought I would throw that out there.


Cheers!

 

Jim
Were the front lower wishbone trunnion bushes replaced ? I had judder last year even though I had new discs and pads on. These were replaced under warranty, but I also had the front, (banana arm) bushes replaced too when the warranty work was done, as they seemed on the way out, and so far, the judder has gone. Maybe it'll come back when the weather warms up !!

 

Hi Fraser, yes thanks, they were ALL done at the same time, which is why I'm ruling them out.
Having said that, Jerry has came back and said the following....

"Sounds very much like the problems thatI had and it took nearly two years and several sets of discs and pads to get tothe bottom of things I had even replaced the front hubs too. Eventually I tookmy car to my local indie for a good inspection underneath and especially allthe suspension bushes. He said that although the front lower wishbone/bananaarm bushes looked good they had actually gone soft. I explained to him about mybrake warping problem and he said that if the discs had the slightest run outthis would be greatly amplified by the fact that the bushes were soft andallowing the whole front strut to move back and forth. Anyhows I put on anotherset of new Pagid discs and changed the front lower banana arm bushes and hey ho8 months later and the brakes are still as good as new and no more shakes. As afoot note I also bought expensive discs too (EBC Ultimax) and they did the sameafter about 2 months the same as the Pagids, so more expensive does not meanany better as regards quality. At any time of changing and machining discs thewarpage was only approx 0.006" or less. Certainly not enough under normalconditions to shake your fillings out. "

Speaking to the Pagid rep today it sounds like we may also be going down that route once again..... its just down to who pays for it?
In all honesty if I need to stump up again, although I'll not be pleased I'll probably do it just to get it fixed......the problem I have is, will it fix it?

You know the scenario on these things, it could be this or that and you end up paying several hundred ££££ and still being in the same position....NO THANKS

Appreciate the comments Fraser
Jim

 

Went back in to Prestige Jaguar today and again met up with Dean from Pagid / Eurocarparts.......
He'd ordered in a new set of Brembo front discs and pads and had arranged with me to supply and fit F.O.C

The issue has once again been rectified, but I know from past experience that these discs / pads will only last around perhaps 2-3 months before it returns again with a vengeance.
Dean seems to think that there may be a problem with the banana arm bushes ( even though these were replaced fairly recently and have done little mileage )

I'm awaiting a call from Dougie hopefully tomorrow on this to see how we proceed and more importantly when we proceed. I'd like this sorted to avoid going through the whole rigmarole again, done n dusted once n for all.
As I said before, Dean and Pagid / Eurocarparts have really stepped up to the plate on this, serious kudos earned on this one from me and highly recommend their products and services.

 

Hello Jim ,

I'm sure you have the best people looking at and trying to rectify the situation , however for what its worth , your recurring brake problem could be a common fault with the rear brake caliper , your style of caliper was fitted to the X type , XF and XJ . (non brembo)

On some of these cars the rear brake pads were lasting only 18 to 25k , similar to the wear on your rear pads . Below is a copy of my response as to what was actually happening .

" Rear Brakes Shot at 19K miles "

[ quote ] Even though the hand brake is electronically activated , it's still a mechanical system , ie a cable is pulled that intern pulls a lever that intern engages a spiral threaded piston . This lever DOES NOT ALWAYS RETURN TO THE OFF POSITION , this is a contributing factor of rear brake pads wearing prematurely on vehicles that use this type of hand brake caliper .

Citroen C5 and some later Ford Mondeo models also use this style of caliper and also have this problem .

Audi and Volvo have a similar type set up but uses no cables or levers , the electronic control motor is attached directly to the back of the caliper , they do not have any premature brake pad problems . [ end quote ]

As you noted " the grabbing effect when reducing speed " is also consistent with non releasing pads .

The heat generated over a period of time will cause the rotor to warp and eventually "shudder" and of course speed up disc pad wear .

If you do have this problem it is quite easily repaired but never truly rectified .

Sid .

 

Hi there and thanks for your reply, much appreciated
I hear what you're saying about the rear brakes, this may in fact be an issue, still unsure.....certainly the slider pins on the rear were stuck fast due to galvanic corrosion, these now freed of, should help


I don't see how this would be an issue with the fronts though?
After resolving the issues at the rear, the problem was better but more localised / pronounced if that makes sense?
Prior to resolving the slider pin issue on the rear, the judder although felt through the steering wheel and pedal was in fact through almost the entire car somewhat


After fixing the rears, the problem was still there but felt wholly through the front end of the car


Thanks
Jim

 

Jim , your right , fixing the rear brakes will have no effect on the front brakes .
Having freed up the rear slide pins will certainly help .

The other possibility that I am aware of that can cause rotors to shudder on a continual basis can be the brake booster .

The most common of which is the length of the push rod between the booster body and master cylinder . Given that your problem started about a year or so ago , I doubt that incorrect adjustment would be the cause there .

Not so common is the Atmospheric Valve located inside the back half of the booster body , that valve acts as a bias on the main diaphragm and controls the amount of vacuum or pressure on he master cylinder piston .

If the piston is being slightly pushed forward , the brakes , mainly front , will just hang on enough causing the brakes to run hot and the shudder reappears . THIS IS CONSISTENT WITH LONG DRIVES OR FREEWAY DRIVING CONDITIONS and can make it harder to diagnose .

good luck with that Jim ,

 

Well, here we are again, after approx 5k miles since 29/02/2016 with brake judders once more.......tearing my hair out.

Work done so far
All front suspension bushes replaced
All rear suspension bushes replaced
Anti roll bar and tie links replaced
New pads and discs several times
New front hub assys
Replace front banana arm bushes again
New wheels

The issue has returned again!!
Speaking to Pagid to see what they come up with on this, but looking at Mastersid's comments above, may need to check it out I think
What's left, brake hoses and or calipers?

Nightmare....but hopefully get there
Jim

 

No need to tear your hair out , this problem like others can be solved and you won't need to replace any parts .

Jim , are you noticing this at higher than normal speeds ,

are you feeling the shudder at the steering wheel or the brake pedal or both .

Sid

 

Ohhh

It's hard to see how it can do that!! But, reality trumps theory.

I hope you find what's wrong soon and tell us, both for you and because it's going to bite others sooner or later.

Could a master cyl fault do it (along the lines mentioned, or others)?

I gather it takes a while to appear or to get bad enough to notice. May be a clue.

Is the disc runout wrong (now) and, if bad, on which disc(s)?

 

This seems like before, I thought I felt a judder when I was I Ireland a week or so ago, just a tiny little judder, was it, wasn't it??
It got to be a definite yes which gets worse as time goes on obviously

Its a lot worse at higher speeds, clearly I try not to get to those speeds at present due to this issue. It's less pronounced at lower speeds, but still there, mostly through the steering wheel, shakes like crazy.

 

Sorry to hear Jim.. So far I as I can see you've covered everything I would think, I've had similar problems on my mondeo with sliders not sliding and the inner pad getting hot and sticking on, I would personally be checking for pad deposits which lead to the feeling of warped discs, maybe the link is something you've already seen but if not it's worth a read.

-Warped- Brake Disc and Other Myths

So far as cheaper fixes go - I'd change the seals in the caliper & flexi lines, and the slider pins ( lubricated with silicone grease ) and avoid copper grease anywhere. I've had good results with Textar Cera Tec brake lubricant on pad ears. I've had a few bits and pieces from the below, calipers and rebuild kits and always been impressed,


JAGUAR XJ SERIES 2003-2009 FRONT BRAKE CALIPER REPAIR KIT (ATE 1 PISTN) BCK6023M | eBay

Beyond this it might be master cylinder seals as has been mentioned above, cheaper to start at the hoses though..

PS. maybe a couple of these would confirm if there were excessive heat issues. Then you could work back to the root cause of the increase in heat.

AP Racing Brake Caliper Temperature Indicator Strips Each Pk Contains 10 Strips | eBay

 

Jim , you need to machine your front rotors so as to remove the the shudder from your steering wheel .

If , the brake booster is faulty , there is a temporary test you can try before any parts are replaced .

The brake master cylinder needs to be pulled forward from the booster enough so as to get to the adjustment rod , you will see a small ( 7 or 8 mm ) round bolt head . You need turn that bolt 2 full turns in , to do this , you need to hold the rod with a pair of pliers so it doesn't turn . That bolt will be tight to turn . You also shouldn't need to remove the brake pipes at the master cylinder .

This rod is factory set and should never need adjusting , the aim here is to compensate for the rod coming forward .

If you do this , drive where you can ( motorway driving ) at high speed , the shudder will soon come back if it wasn't the booster .

Good luck with that

Sid

 

Thanks Simon / Mastersid, appreciate both your posts and input here.....

I'm considering waiting to see what Pagid come up with, if they're still invested that is, time will tell.
Failing that it looks like it's gonna be a long hard slog to get there, but I like to think I'm not a quitter, I'm came this far and will stick with it

Comments noted and taken on board
Thanks
Jim

 

It sounds ever so like a sticking caliper piston (if the kind of caliper with pistons both sides) or slider that isn't sliding.

 

Thanks again for all the input guys, here's where I am today......
Checked the link as per Simon's post re caliper rebuild kits, seals etc for £12.95 doesn't include the piston, pistons sold separately for around £15 each.
I'm thinking mine is the ATE caliper with only piston, but still need to check!

Visiting a good friend of mine, an Audi Tech tonight to discuss and have a look. Considering adding a digital thermometer to each caliper and taking a drive to see if excess heat is detected as advised and go from there.

I reckon the deal kits for around £60 and time to remove / disassemble and add seal kits / repair etc around £100 all in, so £160 total approx.

As stated by Mastersid - If the piston is being slightly pushed forward , the brakes , mainly front , will just hang on enough causing the brakes to run hot and the shudder reappears . THIS IS CONSISTENT WITH LONG DRIVES OR FREEWAY DRIVING CONDITIONS and can make it harder to diagnose .

Certainly seems like from cold, all is A ok and operating normally, once up to temp and on a longer drive, then it gradually comes back and gets worse as time / miles go by
Hopefully moving forward on this.....

Car in for paint front bumper / bonnet / wings and sills as we as rear bumper from Thursday onwards, so will get to this as soon as possible afterwards

Jim

 

Talked to Dave today and explained the situation, first thing he goes to is a sticky caliper.
I do know that dotgilligham has had a similar issue and recently renewed his caliper, reporting a fix.
Having said that, checked with an electronic thermometer and find as follows after a brief run
Passenger side front...


Drivers side front.....


Looking at buying caliper repair seal kits as well as pistons to do a refurbishment on them and see what we find. At around £160 all in to do both fronts, it could be a relatively cheap fix...
Here's hoping..lol


Pagid have said they will offer another set of replacement discs and pads as a gesture of goodwill!
Jim

 

Jim , your car , your call

Your post #1 ,

" Starting at the front passenger side the caliper was removed and slder pins checked, all sliding nice n easy as they should, piston retracting quite easily too.
Front drivers side was similar although the bottom slider pin was a little corroded, so cleaned with emery paper, lubricated and replaced....piston also returned A ok. "

Why would they would be sticking now ?

And I'm starting to wonder now , why the pads and rotors were almost new when you bought the car , unless they were worn , this problem may have existed before you even bought the car .

Good luck with that Jim ,

Sid

 

I think you're probably right there Sid....