Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.

Great 60s classic!

Greg

 

Its hard o compare
american Muscle cars to British and European cars. The American Muscle cars(at least most if not all in the hayday) were built for one purpose, drag racing. european cars on the other hand were built for the curvy road and driving experience. Which makes the European and British cars more of a joy for the weekend drive. and yes I have had both, first car was a 67 Mustang with a 289 HiPo, Mustangs back then did not corner well until the 69 and 70 Mach 1 and that depended on how you had the car set up. As far as
big cars, had a 75 Plymouth Fury with the police interceptor package, hell of a handling car and runner. Someone mentioned about the Superbird for sale on a TV Auction, that was actually built for NASCAR, and back then for the Daytona 500 they had to build 500 production cars for the race ones to compete, it is the only car that was banned from NASCAR due to its handling. I currently own a 2006 HHR (bought because I needed room for the Berners I once owned) and will say my 84 XJS rides quieter and smoother than it

 

We can throw in as many Brit cars as you like ! As it happens, though, the single candidate from Britain, so far, happens to be one of the most expensive, premier brands....Jaguar. Very few American cars are in that price range. So....don't complain too loudly.




Tastes and styles vary, and so do the times. Remember the Daimler Dart ?

Many of those old 1960s vintage musclecars handled horribly but, still, were fun to drive. They were nothing less than automotive icons...in their own class. An entire automotive era evolved because of them. That they were underdeveloped designs doesn't diminish their impact on the automotive world. And...we loved 'em.

In the 1950s an automotive era evolved from the LBCs....Little British Cars. The MGs, Morgans, and Triumphs were the backbone of the sports car world. Nimble on the corners and also fun to drive but hardly any power at all and hardly removed from pre-war technology...but that doesn't diminish their impact on the automotive world. And...we loved 'em.

Times and cars have changed a lot, on both sides of the pond, since then.

One change, among many, is that in the 1980s American cars finally started getting well developed suspensions and the cars could actually go through the twisty bits very well. And good braking systems, too. Many refuse to acknowledge this and to this day unfairly dismiss Americans cars out-of-hand with a remark about inability to take on a twisty road. It simply isn't true.

Cheers
DD

 

Regardless of nationality, humans are a very resourceful and innovative species.

The Soviets did some excellent engineering with very limited resources.

And consider the Cubans. Talk about limitations! Those folks can keep 50 year old cars on the road when every spare part is unattainable. Surely they deserve our respect.

I enjoy the differences in engineering approaches from different cultures. It truly shows how special we humans are.

Mark

 

The Corvette has often been too harshly maligned and has developed into a really great car. I have it on good authority that examples the latest generation can be found in the personal garages of a couple Porsche engineers.

Even going back to the 1960s and the classic Stingray versus XKE rivalry we can still find many who judge the Corvette too harshly. I've spent plenty of time driving both and they're both great in their own way and I enjoy them both equally. I'd love to own one of each but if a cruel reality dictated that I had to choose one over the other, I'd have to pick the Corvette.

Cheers
DD

 

My recollection is that the second gen GM F-body in the top level
versions cornered on rails. Maybe not on country roads, but that's
not where I drove. I had a rally prepped Datsun 510 for the logging
roads and such.

In my case it was a 1973 Firebird Transam with koni's and a careful
alignment. Gabriel's actually turned out to be better.

One dark night while parked at the start of a "twisty bit" waiting for
traffic to clear for a "test run", a TR6 went horning by.

I held still for perhaps 15 seconds doing the responsible thing and
continued to standby to clear traffic ahead.

Then on second #16 the chase was on

Only took two or three long sweepers to catch him.

After that, I could drop back and get on his bumper at will.

From the glorious sounds being made by the TR6 ... he was
definitely trying hard.

My story and I'm sticking to it

 

You're right!

And I'm still looking for my copy hidden away somewhere.

Been looking since the purchase of the XJR

 

You recall correctly. That was the beginning.... and as time went by more and more American cars were made to go around corners without dragging their door handles on the pavement.

You may also recall the various Chevies with "F41" suspension packages and the 80s-vintage Oldsmobile 88s and 98s with the "FE2" suspension....which would stay with any Jag or MB through the twisty stuff. By now fully independent suspension, fast ratio rack and pinion steering, 4 wheel disc brakes, MacPherson struts, large F-R anti-roll bars, alloy wheels, and performance-oriented tires were becoming commonplace on American cars.

By the mid/late 90s even Cadillac was in on the act. Carefully designed and tuned suspensions and great road manners....on sedans with 140-150mph top speed. Nothing at all like the lumbering land yachts of yesteryear. These traits were seldom appreciated by buyers and often not noticed by the public, but, still, the point being is that even Cadillac made great strides. A few years later the Cadillac CTS/V proved that Cadillac could build an actual performance automobile. Went like a bat outta hell and stuck to the road like glue. It had looks that only a mother could love, but, well.....maybe that's just me.

It is still quite common to hear American cars referred to as being intended for 'straight line only' use only and/or American drivers are too dumb to recognize or appreciate a car the corners well. Of course this couldn't be further from the truth but old legends die hard.

Actually Jaguar owners shouldn't be too boastful or cocky in this regard. Although long known for finely tuned suspensions and great road manners, Jaguars are seldom, if ever, rated top-of-class in outright cornering prowess when compared to other sports/luxury models. When a compromise of comfort-versus-cornering has to be made Jaguar always chooses comfort....and thus they are known for being a bit squishy compared to BMW, Audi, etc. So, in that sense, perhaps Jaguar has more of a connection to American cousins than we realize at first blush.

I've always been very pleased with how my Jags handled the corners, especially the XJR and XJS. But many other cars do just as well, including some from Detroit.

Cheers
DD

 

[QUOTE=Doug;1255445]
One change, among many, is that in the 1980s American cars finally started getting well developed suspensions and the cars could actually go through the twisty bits very well. And good braking systems, too. Many refuse to acknowledge this and to this day unfairly dismiss Americans cars out-of-hand with a remark about inability to take on a twisty road. It simply isn't true.

I remember when the C-4 Corvette came out in 1984 and it had such a stiff ride that new owners were actually taking them back to the dealers telling them to keep the car. I wont even begin to talk about the never ending plastic dashes and trim in those early C-4s.

I suppose the mid to late 70's were so dark for the American auto industry that the first C-4 Corvette was actually looked at as an improvement.

Just amazes me how much Jaguar did with so few resources for so many years. Imagine how much more they could have accomplished if they had even a 20th of the resources that either GM or Ford had at their disposal. c

 

Drove two of those 88's. Whether they ad the "FE2" suspension is unknown.

Those things were quick around corners.

As long as you knew how to brace yourself into the bench
seat and didn't get seasick easily

Steel belted 78 series radials are very forgiving and give
lots of feedback. Ignore the noise and keep rolling.

My XJR came with the euro spec springs and has sagged
maybe another half inch from new. So, it is lower than most.

With 255/45R18, if that car was rolling and squalling that
much, next stop would be the body shop.

Oh speaking of Jaguar versus ... drove my parents ancient
Buick Lesabre a few weeks ago. What struck me was how
precise the brakes felt. With all my bleeding, premium
brake fluids, careful caliper pin/mount lubing, etc.
.... the Buick was still way ahead on feel.

 

Buyer's of those C-4's may have been used to much cushier cars on at most 60 series profile
tires and been "upgrading" from something like a Delta 88, or maybe a Cutlass.

And even with the precedent of GM and Ford and plastic components, it seems Jaguar didn't
care and have adopted ever greater percentages of plastic, inferior plastic, in their modern
offerings.

In my mind, except for the X308 front suspension camber adjustment, the X300 XJR was
the absolute pinnacle of Jaguar production.

 

Doug,

Let us not forget that an early C4 Vette (et al) had electrics that ranked right up there with 70's Leyland issued, the British make fun of us for said years garbage!!

Brass Tacks: We (should) own and drive Jaguars as the standout polar opposite of anything issued at the time. The allure is the exotic nature of (almost) every model ever produced and the extra patience and maintenance are simply the price of admission to an elite club.

After all that nonsense I just wrote, reading articles such as this just irk me off, as I can put a V8 in my lawnmower, make it handle and stop like an F1 car, but it's still a lawnmower.. ;-)

This is coming from a Yank with deep ties to the UK that thinks Americans stopped building cars in the 40's and has been daily driving (almost nothing but) British cars for 25 years.

My name is Jeff, and I drink the Kool Aid..

HA!

(as a serious aside, I got to recently beat on the latest gen Vettes at a road and track event, and its a fantastic car, looks notwithstanding)..

 

Yes, particularly those with the Z51 performance option.....which buyers thought would be a neat thing to have until they actually drove the car !

But hard suspension was standard issue on Corvettes for a long time, no doubt about it. And many 911s as well, now that I think of it.





Not one of Chevrolet's finer moments, to be sure !




The 70s were hard on all builders, really. Or at least any who wanted to sell cars in the USA. They *all* struggled with emissions standards and safety requirements....often not too gracefully.


Cheers
DD

 

You would've known. FWD, FE2 emblems, alloy wheels, 60-series tires, fast ratio steering, bucket seats in many cases, .......


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Eight_1988.jpg


Being nose heavy FWDers they naturally succumbed to understeer when pressed too hard.... but, still, you could really make fast progress on the twisty roads. Nothing at all like the land yachts of prior years.

Cheers
DD

 

Actually, it was the RWD land yachts I was referring to.

They could be hustled along if you took your inspiration
from books and movies about moonshiners and the first generation
stock car racers. You had to understand that you were driving a wet
dish mop, set your line and stick to it. No other choice once you
committed.

 

100% correct Doug. Bob Knight (for the benefit of those who do not know, Jaguar's suspension, ride and chassis king, who designed the IRS inboard brakes rear axle over one weekend to win a bet) said "You cannot impress anyone with a Jaguar's speed, only with its refinement". The aim of the Company's vehicles has historically been to achieve a wonderful synthesis of speed, good handling and terrific ride comfort, at a price unmatched by luxury vehicle competitors. As you imply, I too think that is the yardstick against which Jaguars should be judged.

Greg

 

What was the bet?

 

So true, Greg, Grace, Pace and Space (for us Europeans,at least).
And even relatively cheap in their haydays (IMHO).

 

 

I think it was that he could not design a better rear axle than some particular example (which I have forgotten); or that he advanced the opinion that the jaguar axle used at the time was a poor design for racing purposes and he was challenged to design a better one. I may be imagining this following, but I think that somewhere I have seen a copy of his original sketches.

Greg