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Economist article on Tata

 
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Old 03-14-2019, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by OzXFR View Post
Except that the JLR recall is wholly and solely about CO2 while the Germans have been stung by NOx!
True, Jaguar wants to feed the trees that jaguars live in, whereas the Germans wanted to poison the people.
 
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Old 03-14-2019, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by xxaarraa View Post
People always say that and it makes me laugh. Not really. Beauty when it comes to automotive bodywork is more objective and less subjective than people think. A Ferrari 458 looks better than a Pontiac Aztek no matter what anyone who owns an Aztek says.



No opinion but Walt made that Aztek famous.
 
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Old 03-14-2019, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by AJ16er View Post
It isn't an English problem but a Lotus one. Many English makes exist with high build quality.
I have owned a Dodge Dakota Magnum and a Ford F150 both of which had very severe rust problems with the chassis as well as engine issues like
a spark plug getting blown out on the Ford and overheating issues on the Dodge as well as snapped exhaust manifiold bolts into the engine block as just a few examples.

An older Toyota Camry we owned had no rust whatsoever under body at 250,000. Engine still strong but manual clutch failed at the end.
 
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Old 03-14-2019, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by xxaarraa View Post
I sold my 2017 in 3 months. Most beautiful and exotic car I have ever owned, but absolute pile of garbage as far as build quality goes. Door seals leak, car takes water every time its washed or it rains, rusts inside out, seat bottoms untuck, panels don't fit right. Lotus does not keep any parts in stock, does not have a dealer inventory and parts management system and even simple things like seats are 8-10 weeks out. Wiring is absolutely hysterical, with frequent ground faults and random codes thrown by nearly every sensor on the car. I had a OBD2 scanner permanently in the car to clear codes on a daily basis. That's before you get to the major mechanical issues with the IPS auto tranny. There is a single component that is not Toyota made and that's the actuator motor and range sensor unit and Lotus managed to **** that up. Car would repeatedly randomly stall and go into limp mode. And Lotus the company is run by retards. They don't honor warranty claims, factory doesn't work on Fridays.

They are an absolute example of shoddy home made British workmanship and a company that should have gone out of business long long ago, or stuck to making $30k track toys. Big professional corporations like Tata or Geely buying these boutique British shops is a blessing. And I would take made in China over made in England every day of the week. English build quality is a joke, always been that way. They should stick to bodywork and suspension setup and let the adults do the manufacturing.

What else would you like to know?
ouch. thanks for the insight.
 
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Old 03-14-2019, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Unhingd View Post
Iím sorry, but that car would look even better without the body colored running boards.
Agreed. The running boards detract, but I think the front side air intakes are the real mistake. The vertical gills brought the fender line down thru the front fascia and were the piece de resistance.
 
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Old 03-14-2019, 02:39 PM
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He pushed to sell 1m cars a year to help spread the costs of developing future technology.
I think herein lies like the problem. Jaguar has historically been a specialty brand. Remember when they sold only two models - the XJ and XJS? Three if you count the XJ220 supercar. That's what they should have stuck to. How does Bentley survive despite selling only 2,400 cars in the US in 2017?

They should have pushed the x351 XJ saloon further upmarket well into Bentley Continental Flying Spur territory considering they had the XF to handle the lower end share. Of course bringing back the V12. Dropping the XK was another mistake, the F Type is a compact roadster and not a replacement. Investing in development of the F-Pace seemed nonsensical not only from the brand propriety standpoint but also because that is Land Rover's market.

Another massive mistake was doing away with the traditional styling and wood veneered interiors, that's what made Jaguars.

 
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Old 03-14-2019, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by AJ16er View Post
How does Bentley survive despite selling only 2,400 cars in the US in 2017?
Massive margin at a $300k price point. Much like selling 79c of chemicals in a 1oz. bottle of perfume at $100.
 

Last edited by Unhingd; 03-14-2019 at 04:41 PM.
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Old 03-14-2019, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Unhingd View Post
Massive margin at a $300k price point. Much like selling 79c of chemicals in a 1oz. bottle of perfume at $100.
That's indeed possible but I imagine their production costs are also very high. They use large engines and spare no expense in interior materials.

I imagine the development costs of all these new engines Jaguar recently put out are also a major part of the money flow problem. Bentley uses only one or two motors that are both sourced from VW - like the W12 for example.
 

Last edited by AJ16er; 03-14-2019 at 05:49 PM.
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Old 03-14-2019, 06:32 PM
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I can’t say I have done a B school study but over the years I have watched automobile manufacturer margin numbers. They are all pretty much the same with the exception of Porsche which is an outlier at 20%.
 
  #30  
Old 03-14-2019, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Suaro View Post

I think the front side air intakes are the real mistake. The vertical gills brought the fender line down thru the front fascia and were the piece de resistance.
absolutely correct. The original gill design had a beautiful line that started in the centre vane of the gill and continued unbroken up through the headlamp cover and along the edge of the fender, drawing the eye along the length of the car...well, it is now truncated in the current "improvement" (which is anything-but...and at its worst in the model with a horizontal line running through the gill).
In general, original designs have an integrity and purity which is seldom (almost never) bettered by "refreshing". That is certainly the case with the F-Type whose beauty stunned the automotive world on its release...
 
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Old 03-14-2019, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by AJ16er View Post
I think herein lies like the problem. Jaguar has historically been a specialty brand. Remember when they sold only two models - the XJ and XJS? Three if you count the XJ220 supercar. That's what they should have stuck to. How does Bentley survive despite selling only 2,400 cars in the US in 2017?

They should have pushed the x351 XJ saloon further upmarket well into Bentley Continental Flying Spur territory considering they had the XF to handle the lower end share. Of course bringing back the V12. Dropping the XK was another mistake, the F Type is a compact roadster and not a replacement. Investing in development of the F-Pace seemed nonsensical not only from the brand propriety standpoint but also because that is Land Rover's market.

Another massive mistake was doing away with the traditional styling and wood veneered interiors, that's what made Jaguars.
I think you are right but I think there's more to it than style and power.

Jaguar, like Cadillac was concerned that their XJ series customers were getting old and dying off, but they forgot that young people are where old people come from. People's tastes and needs change as they get older. Sure when I was 26, I probably would have told you I'd never own anything other than a sports car or pickup truck, but if it hadn't been for the magic carpet ride of the XJ8, I'd probably have become homebound for a year after my back surgery and I still hurt some a decade later. When it came time to replace the XJ8, I drove just about everything and couldn't find anything close to the ride of the X308. I wouldn't have bought an XF except that I knew Spires offered an aftermarket "comfort suspension" package for it. It was a gamble, but it was either that or putting coilovers on something common like a CTS seemed the next most cost-effective solution. Rather ironic that when I was 26, I had to modify my sports cars for autocross because the stock suspension, wheels and tires were a compromise for on-road comfort and fast forward 25 years I have to modify my luxury cars because the stock suspension, wheels and tires are practically race-ready right out of the factory.

So I think Jaguar's biggest mistake was the decision to pursue BMW customers by turning everything into a "sport sedan". Yes, it gets the automotive journalists to write favorable reviews, but sportiness is really only important to a very tiny segment of the market (obviously or you wouldn't have the majority of the market buying what are essentially just tall station wagons today; the S in SUV referring to the amount of sports equipment you can haul in the back). Jaguar shouldn't have tried to beat BMW at a game that BMW has owned for a few decades, but rather they should have kept playing the game they were already good at, making LUXURY sedans and grand tourers. And the fact that so many of the other manufacturers have also gone after BMW in the premium sport sedan class means that the luxury segment has been just about all but abandoned. If Jaguar had continued to focus on that pure luxury segment, they'd probably be just fine today, in a class by themselves instead of outclassed in already crowded fields.
 

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  #32  
Old 03-15-2019, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by OzXFR View Post
Except that the JLR recall is wholly and solely about CO2 while the Germans have been stung by NOx!
the 4cyl is already recalled? jesus.
 
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Old 03-15-2019, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Suaro View Post
Agreed. The running boards detract, but I think the front side air intakes are the real mistake. The vertical gills brought the fender line down thru the front fascia and were the piece de resistance.
I am *hoping* I disagree with you!
I loved the front of the 2016, but for various reasons I've a brand new 2019 I am about to pick up, and lose my vertical gills..... I almost thought about swapping out the front LOL
I'll take side by side photos of both before departing with the new and out with the old. Not sure there's many side by side that show changes over time.
 
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Old 03-15-2019, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by xxaarraa;2039490[b

I would take made in China over made in England every day of the week. English build quality is a joke, always been that way.
Why don't you? there are some incredible sports cars made in China. Guangdong has contributed a lot to Formula1 and motorsports. And known for build quality.

Meanwhile...the only car synonymous for exemplary build quality is Rolls Royce.

And not many Americans would know this:
Just the Nissan factory in UK, not the Toyota, not the Honda, just the Nissan, made more cars than the entire Italian auto industry combined....some for export to Japan.
33% of all Ford engines in the world are made in UK.
75% of all motorsports R&D is done in UK
Let Jeremy explain it....

 

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Old 03-15-2019, 01:46 PM
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Possibly their all-time best finale.
 
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Old 03-17-2019, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by DJS View Post
Possibly their all-time best finale.
Yes, Top-Gear's finest hour. To give back to the tiny island that has contributed so much to motoring, including the greatest motoring show in the world.


Incidentally, many of you F-type guys may not know, that your F-type was built in the very factory that made the Spitfire fighter planes that won the war... built using the same riveted aluminium monocoque technology.
First used in a car by British Lotus...now a standard in all supercars and F1.

Never has so much been done by so few.
 
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Old 03-17-2019, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Queen and Country View Post
Why don't you? there are some incredible sports cars made in China. Guangdong has contributed a lot to Formula1 and motorsports. And known for build quality.

Meanwhile...the only car synonymous for exemplary build quality is Rolls Royce.

And not many Americans would know this:
Just the Nissan factory in UK, not the Toyota, not the Honda, just the Nissan, made more cars than the entire Italian auto industry combined....some for export to Japan.
33% of all Ford engines in the world are made in UK.
75% of all motorsports R&D is done in UK
Let Jeremy explain it....
Last I heard, Rolls Royce was owned by BMW.

All this patriotic patting yourself on the back is great, but tell me why every single British car company went belly up, and got bought by better managed and bigger companies? If your manufacturing is so strong, why do your companies go belly up?

Being a great sub-contractor (engine maker for instance) is a far cry from being a full stack car manufacturer. Britain has always been great at cobbling together small project cars and track cars for niche specialty applications, no doubt. They have also always been **** poor at building and sustaining a global car manufacturer.

Again, being a hub for motorsports R&D is worth dog poop in the real world. Lotus is a great F1 team, that doesn't mean their woefully outdated road cars aren't a pile of garbage. And the 1% of the world that watches European motorsports is so out of touch with reality, that it really means jack **** to the other 99% that R&D is strong in Britain. Results speak for themselves.
 

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Old 03-17-2019, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by xxaarraa View Post

Tell me why every single British car company went belly up, and got bought by better managed and bigger companies? If your manufacturing is so strong, why do your companies go belly up?
Because are were small specialty niche companies, like you said. Just like Ferrari and Lamborghini got bought out by Fiat and VW, respectively. Ferrari was recently separated but that's another story.
 
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Old 03-17-2019, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by xxaarraa View Post
Last I heard, Rolls Royce was owned by BMW.

tell me why every single British car company went belly up?

Britain has always been great at cobbling together small project cars and track cars for niche specialty applications, no doubt. They have also always been **** poor at building and sustaining a global car manufacturer.
I dont know any British car company that went "belly up". Well MG.
Perhaps you don't know how many car companies there are in Britain.
Jaguar
McLaren
Lotus
Aston Martin
Caterham
Ariel
Morgan
Rolls Royce
Bentley
Mini
Land Rover
Range Rover

All making cars coveted around the world. Many of them Supercars!
That's actually more than Detroit, and not all Detroit's cars are not coveted around the world.
Its astronomical for a country that's 1/3rd of the size of Texas. What car or automotive technology ever came out Texas?

Why were many car companies sold?
For the same reason that GM had to sell Volvo and many others, and Ford had to sell Aston and many others.
Cars are a losing proposition, always subsidized by governments. British govt does not believe in nor can afford to prop up its car industry. (tiny island)

Yes do you know why companies like BMW want to buy a Mini, or Bentley or Rolls Royce? And manufacture in the UK.?
It will answer many of your questions.
Well one of them may be a bit complex. You see, Rolls Royce is the 2nd largest manufacturer of Jet engines in the world. (being it was invented in UK). BMW was an aircraft engine manufacturer, and found its way through the backdoor.

Yeah cobbling together engines has its virtues. Look what Cosworth just cobbled up (BTW they are second to Ferrari in motorsport wins)

 
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Old 03-17-2019, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Queen and Country View Post
I

All making cars coveted around the world. Many of them Supercars!
Indeed. I was reading about the Aston Martin V8 Vantage V600 the other day. One sold at auction for over $600k.

Look at how many years it took for a huge company with very deep pockets like VW to top the McLaren F1's (naturally aspirated) speed record. The British automotive industry is something truly iconic and in a league of its own.

 

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